Airsoft in real life situations.

Shanewalsh

Ok bare with me on this topic!

Was on the Luas the other day thinking that if a group of armed terrorists took over the tram threatening to kill for whatever reason, what and how would the special forces go about resolving this and if bloodshed was going to happen how would they take the terrorists down with out civilian casualty.

How would the arm forces train for such situations? Would airsoft be a great way for them to train and wouldn't it be great to get an airsoft team involved in such training exercises.

Like imagine a group of airsoft players being asked to play terrorists on an old plane on an airfield somewhere not busy and the special forces come and try save the day.

Could any situations like this be done? I have not been playing airsoft that long and figured that the best simulation would be the one that will most likely happen. I for one would love the opportunity to be a terrorist/bank robber or whatever to get in the most realistic situation.

I dont know how this topic is going to go down but its a forum open for discussion and want to hear your opinions on it and if you think it would be fun.

*please don't comment on my spelling mistakes/bad grammer /lack of intelligence/ or anything else irrelevant to this topic.

Shane

Puding

Airsoft and paintball are already used by conventional and unconventional forces around the world for fource on force training

I've read about airsoft groups playing opsforce in training to replicate irregular forces but it is very far from a skirmish or even milsim , but not that far fetched

Shanewalsh

I knew paintball was but i never knew airsoft was. But it would be cool for Garda/Army to call on various Airsoft teams around Ireland to get in on this action.

evilrobotshane

I recall hearing that airsofters had been used in the past for things like what you're describing because we act in retarded, untrained and no-concern-for-own-safety ways that accidentally somewhat approximate how a highly motivated fanatic acts, and which they can't get trained folks to replicate properly. No idea how true that is and I don't remember where I heard it.

kevinhalvey

i know for sure that at the sas use airsoft rifles

and also thats why we have the army ranger wing (black role) are for
i dont think it would be a great idea too take on armed hostages on your own although it would be fun :P

Shanewalsh

lol, i just think it would be cool to take on the special forces or whoever in a real situation and see what the outcome would be.

McGilla

kevinhalvey wrote: »

i know for sure that at the sas use airsoft rifles

...Really!;)

The SAS are known for being one of the pioneers for using live rounds in training drills. Their traing is all about conditioning so operatives can still function with the noise etc from live firing and flash bangs etc.

I see no benefit fo them to take a step back in training to airsoft riffles. Especially as their would be no real fear or conciquences for friendly fire, here with live rounds...they kill thie mates.

Although OP fair play its fun to dream!!!:D

And Im glad im not the only person thinking of airsoft situations out and about! ....Im normal...yay!

Shanewalsh

lol, we are not normal not when we think of airsoft and skirmishing all day lol.

J.D.R

McGilla wrote: »

...Really!;)

The SAS are known for being one of the pioneers for using live rounds in training drills. Their traing is all about conditioning so operatives can still function with the noise etc from live firing and flash bangs etc.

I see no benefit fo them to take a step back in training to airsoft riffles. Especially as their would be no real fear or conciquences for friendly fire, here with live rounds...they kill thie mates.

Although OP fair play its fun to dream!!!:D

And Im glad im not the only person thinking of airsoft situations out and about! ....Im normal...yay!

Keep thinking about the time Margeret Thatcher went to the killing house.

She and her aid were sat at a table while the SAS were doing a demonstration, with targets all around them.

The door explodes and rounds start going off everywhere. The aid panics and collapses into a heap under the table, while Thatcher stays seated, watching as much as she can of the going on in amazement.

After it's all over she calmly looks at her aid and says "Please stand up roger, your embarrassing me infront of the boys".

I am positive that all the top special forces units worldwide use live rounds, because there's no point traing with one thing and doing with another.

Although, if my local Gardaí station ever want volunteers to resist arrest, I'm in.

Shanewalsh

hahahahahhahaha brilliant.

Well i am sure at some stage special forces will use airsoft/paintball for CQB situations.

Poccington

It's all about simunitions.

Shanewalsh

Poccington wrote: »

It's all about simunitions.

I checkout this http://www.simunition.com interesting.

hightower1

U.S army use the WE m4a1 in training excersises. Also some S.W.A.T units too. Check youtube, they seem pretty proud of it so the WE guy is in the videos too. Twas what clinched my decision to buy the WE ra tech m4a1.

bullets

There was some show on telly a while back, cant remember
what it was, where there was "contestants" that were doing house clearing simulations with some army unit.
They used airsoft guns as far as I can remember.

Not sure if it was SAS are you tough enough with Dermot O'Leary or something with the likes of Ross Kemp in it.

Often wondered if the Irish Army would use them for training, in the FCA years ago we ran about the place fireing blanks on tactics, nobody knew who was hit, who won, who lost or anything, did not make much sense to me at the time, (this was back in the mid 90's) You had
a nice big noise off the gun, but nobody could decide who was hit. The scenarios endings seemed to be pre-determined based on the ability to flank your opponent and what was to be a likely ending.

Edit: not the video I was looking for but this other one
mentions airsoft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peLTvn0L128
~B

bullets

Shanewalsh wrote: »

I checkout this http://www.simunition.com interesting.

Drrrooooolllllllll Would LOVE if this was legal in Ireland and available to try.

~B

Puding

and something else

edit : what on earth is up with embed at the moment?

MerryDespot

Are those sim rounds Puding? They look like those rounds the USMC use for training ... enough powder to work the bolt but non-lethal velocity out of the projectile or something like that....

kevinhalvey

McGilla wrote: »

...Really!;)

The SAS are known for being one of the pioneers for using live rounds in training drills. Their traing is all about conditioning so operatives can still function with the noise etc from live firing and flash bangs etc.

I see no benefit fo them to take a step back in training to airsoft riffles. Especially as their would be no real fear or conciquences for friendly fire, here with live rounds...they kill thie mates.

Although OP fair play its fun to dream!!!:D

And Im glad im not the only person thinking of airsoft situations out and about! ....Im normal...yay!

yes that is true but i forgot to mention this is during the enrollment process its too test the speed and reactive time of the soilders

thermo

bullets wrote: »

Drrrooooolllllllll Would LOVE if this was legal in Ireland and available to try.

~B

it is,,, the only catch is you have to make it into the ARW

Ross_Mahon

Airsoft guns are also being used for military and law enforcement training purposes all over the United States, and several other countries in the world. The airsoft gun brand "Systema" has created an M16 airsoft imitation firearm that functions exactly like the real counterpart. When the last bb is fired, the weapon stops shooting, a new magazine must be inserted and the bolt catch must be operated before the gun is able to fire again. Gun enthusiasts of all ages enjoy airsoft due to their striking resemblance to their real counter parts. Many law enforcement agencies are starting to use airsoft guns because of the realism these airsoft guns portray. Most of these airsoft guns are very similar in appearance and action and thus make a good training aid. In the past, law enforcement agencies had to resort to either unloaded firearms, plastic, or rubber dummy guns for certain training exercises but with the advent of airsoft, law enforcement personnel can now use a very real looking yet safe alternative

Very interesting...

bullets

thermo wrote: »

it is,,, the only catch is you have to make it into the ARW

That rules out alcho overweight airsoft types then

~B

thermo

bullets wrote: »

That rules out alcho overweight airsoft types then

~B

oi........... i resemble that remark!:D

I-Shot-Jr

kevinhalvey wrote: »

i know for sure that at the sas use airsoft rifles

and also thats why we have the army ranger wing (black role) are for
i dont think it would be a great idea too take on armed hostages on your own although it would be fun :P

I'm not a big airsofter at all but a friend of mine who worked at an event the sas were demonstrating their abilities at managed to pilfer one of their airsoft guns. It was brilliant and far better than my G36c!

Witcher

I-Shot-Jr wrote: »

I'm not a big airsofter at all but a friend of mine who worked at an event the sas were demonstrating their abilities at managed to pilfer one of their airsoft guns. It was brilliant and far better than my G36c!

:rolleyes:

Stealing from the SAS, surely human intelligence's finest moment.

PEP_C

McGilla wrote: »

...Really!;)

The SAS are known for being one of the pioneers for using live rounds in training drills. Their traing is all about conditioning so operatives can still function with the noise etc from live firing and flash bangs etc.

I see no benefit fo them to take a step back in training to airsoft riffles. Especially as their would be no real fear or conciquences for friendly fire, here with live rounds...they kill thie mates.

Yes, they use live rounds....but not on the first day. They build up to live rounds...sending in novices in that enviroment into a live ammo scenario would be asking for trouble.

swiftblade

Ok i'm going to "bite the bullet here" . How do any of you know what the SAS do? It's not like they openly say they use Airsoft devices or blank rounds in a training situation.

Just wondering. These all could be urban myths

Bailey.!

Ha I often drift off like that when im in school .I think it would be a good idea but it wouldnt work for eg if you had to have a sniper in the situation you would be restricted to range and accuracy

PEP_C

swiftblade wrote: »

Ok i'm going to "bite the bullet here" . How do any of you know what the SAS do? It's not like they openly say they use Airsoft devices or blank rounds in a training situation.

Just wondering. These all could be urban myths

Common sense....you do not let an untrained soldier use live rounds on his first day CQB training....its a massive risk. You teach him with an empty weapon...you dry execute the scenario, then you run it with training ammuinition after they get the scenario right amd gained confidence, then onto live ammuinition.

Weather they use airsoft guns....I do not know.....I do know that its completely impractical to use live ammuinition for a first run scenario. You end up killing/injuring soldiers who you have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds training.

NakedDex

There's a massive amount of assumed information on this thread. How come everyone suddenly knows the whereabouts and operations of the SAS?

This thread has gone from "do any military/LE use airsoft in training", to "Soldiers never train with live fire" and "My mate stole from the SAS".


Simuntion is the only non-laser based system, that I'm aware of, that's in use. The US Marines have been using it for some time. They call it SESAMs (or SISAMs, I can't remember for certain the acronym).
The laser based systems, like MILES and TEZ are the most prevalent training tools.
From what I remember from using them, they have a couple of small downfalls (lasers don't suffer from bullet drop, so you suddenly gain some extreme accuracy), but are the preferred option since the users never get hit with anything solid, but are still aware of being "hit". There's also the advantage of weapon familiarisation, even if it is with blanks. You rapidly forget they're blanks when you end up in an exercise with them, I can assure you. Not something you could do with an airsoft equivalent.

Lemming

NakedDex wrote: »

There's a massive amount of assumed information on this thread. How come everyone suddenly knows the whereabouts and operations of the SAS?

PEP_C wrote: »

Yes, they use live rounds....but not on the first day. They build up to live rounds...sending in novices in that enviroment into a live ammo scenario would be asking for trouble.

To add to what Dex has already said, have any of you considered that SAS (or most SF for that matter I should imagine) "recruits" are not novices? Most would likely be experienced/senior soldiers in their existing regiments before applying for (and more importantly, being approved for) selection. And in order to even get near a CQB environment they have to have passed basic selection already, so this whole thing of not sending "novices" in with live fire doesn't really cut it.

McGilla

A nice light hearted thread is turning to the...I Know more about everything thread...Im an expert in everything b*ll****!

Back to the real world!:rolleyes:

PEP_C

Lemming wrote: »

And in order to even get near a CQB environment they have to have passed basic selection already, so this whole thing of not sending "novices" in with live fire doesn't really cut it.

I withdraw from this conversation on the grounds of my sanity.

If you ever get to a sterling services game in the uk.....ask the organsiers.

But please tell them about the theory of being ready for room clearance with live muinitions on the first day because you pass selection.

Hivemind187

PEP_C wrote: »

I withdraw from this conversation on the grounds of my sanity.

If you ever get to a sterling services game in the uk.....ask the organsiers.

But please tell them about the theory of being ready for room clearance with live muinitions on the first day because you pass selection.

Because average squaddies arent doing room clearance every day on extended deployments in Afghanistan.

:rolleyes: Seems EVERYONE knows "some lad down the pub who is in the regiment".

Lemming

PEP_C wrote: »

If you ever get to a sterling services game in the uk.....ask the organsiers.

I've been to sterling services games.

But not to bother, I'll give Dave Manning a call just to satisfy you.

But please tell them about the theory of being ready for room clearance with live muinitions on the first day because you pass selection.

I never said they were sent straight into room clearance on day one after passing basic selection. And there are several problems with the words you've just tried to put into my mouth.

c-90

bullets wrote: »

Often wondered if the Irish Army would use them for training, in the FCA years ago we ran about the place fireing blanks on tactics, nobody knew who was hit, who won, who lost or anything, did not make much sense to me at the time, (this was back in the mid 90's) You had
a nice big noise off the gun, but nobody could decide who was hit. The scenarios endings seemed to be pre-determined based on the ability to flank your opponent and what was to be a likely ending.

we still use just blanks, they dont want casualties because if we were taking casualties we wouldnt be able to complete the drill and then the exercise is teaching us to die. training staff will select certain casualties when they want but if we were to loose the first 3 guys everytime we were hit up i doubt the training would be effective. its not a skirmish. its showing/learning the drill


as for training with airsoft i doubt many forces would opt for it seeing as airsoft guns arent up to being bashed around or reliable enough. drop a rifle and you look like a tool but its still going to work perfectly when u pick it up, drop an airsoft gun and suddenly you have an expensive ornament piece.

J.D.R

PEP_C wrote: »

But please tell them about the theory of being ready for room clearance with live muinitions on the first day because you pass selection.

From what I have read about SF units (written by ex-members of the SAS and Delta) every account of orientation into proficient fire-arm use is the same.

After selection on the first day of firearms training, they start out on the range individually. They have a line of targets that they walk through and shoot. Eventually they do it enough to be able to run through the line with ease and speed. Then, they add another squad member, so not only does they have to shoot the target, but they have to not shoot each other. They start off by walking through it and end up running through it with 4 squad members.

They then move onto the Killing house after many many weeks of this. They learn how to do it theoretically by being shown how to do it in person and how to do it via instructions. Then they do it themselves slowly, and then build up to being able to do it in seconds.

While it is true that the first day after selection they are not told to clear that room, from every account I have read and seen on TV, they always use live ammunition.

And, if anyone wants to point out that I am not in the SAS so I can't possibly know what I am talking about, if anyone knows any members of the ARW I am sure they would do something similar. Or, if anyone here has read a book about SF units they will remember reading something similar to this.

And, on a side note, what benefit is there to a thread by people saying they are leaving because they disagree where the thread is going? Like many threads on this site, the discussion evolved into something else. While it may not be strictly on topic, it is still quite interesting in my opinion. It is no use to attempt to boycott a thread because you have been corrected by people. If you are corrected, listen to the other person and see where they are coming from. There is always the possibility that YOU COULD BE WRONG!!!

Markom5a

only one way to solve this! someone has to join the irish, british and american army rise through the ranks all the time training for their selection courses for their special forces, pass them and complete training and then report back to us nosey people on a public forum, easy! although they might take offence to the release of top military secrets.........

McGilla

Markom5a wrote: »

only one way to solve this! someone has to join the irish, british and american army rise through the ranks all the time training for their selection courses for their special forces, pass them and complete training and then report back to us nosey people on a public forum, easy! although they might take offence to the release of top military secrets.........

Fine...I'll do it!

I'll be up the sugar loaf with a Bergain if anyone is looking for me!

Markom5a

McGilla wrote: »

Fine...I'll do it!

I'll be up the sugar loaf with a Bergain if anyone is looking for me!

i'd put myself forward but currently i am doing business in ul and am enjoying my bum status for the next few years!!!