Taboo topics around gender and sexuality in NeoPaganism?

Abhainn-Rivers

Okay despite overcoming my subversive period I did promise to start the thread and far be it from me to disappoint. Besides subversion I do think a thread of this nature could prove insightful for people to engage on. I know recently on my personal blog I found it very challenging to have concepts around the principle of polarity challenged since I've always had this impression that somehow many people (whether they themselves identify as LGBT or not) often confuse sex as in gender with sexuality. (Case in point is the occassional flare up between the Transphobia within the LGBT Community itself).

I have it on good authority that many Traditional Initiatory Wiccan (TIW) covens have evolved and developed on their concepts of how gender and sexuality work within a ritual context. So now I wonder why so many neopagan or more specifically "Wicca101" manuals and books seem hell bent on perpetuating mindsets from the 1950s? Honestly, I can't seem to find any books that really get into this in-depth. I don't believe this is simply an issue for "the Wiccans" to address as I've noticed this misnomer creeping into DruidCraft material (possibly because Neo-druidism itself is less Craft focused and so DruidCraft tends to feed those interested in magic as well as observances?! I'm guessing here to be perfectly honest).

Does anyone feel its important to remain boy-girl-boy-girl in ritual circles? If so would anyone envision a possible exception say if someone was transgendered (pre- or post-op)? Or would it be more circumspect on the individuals within the Circle?

I'll open the floor to others responses first and we can see where the topic flows from there... I should clarify I'm asking no one to break Oaths of Secrecy here but to help develop the universal understanding of Neo-paganism. x

Nevyn

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Does anyone feel its important to remain boy-girl-boy-girl in ritual circles?

What type ritual circle, for what purpose or celebration in what order/tradition/religion?

The biggest flaw I see in what is seen as neo paganism is that there is only one way to do something and if your not doing it that way then your doing it wrong and wrong being anything different then the reams of books publish by a certain publishing house which all seem to reference each other or reference works which have been debunked.


Personally a person's sex is between their legs, their gender is between their ears and their sexuality could be a whole range of different things.

One thing I have learned mind that while a person may be pagan that does preclude them from being, ill informed a bigot or an arsehole. Some times people in what is seen as a subculture can be even more cutting to those who are in that same sub culture but more 'other' then they are.

Abhainn-Rivers

Thaedydal wrote: »

What type ritual circle, for what purpose or celebration in what order/tradition/religion?

Good point! I didn't want to target specific groups as a Order/Trad/Religion bashing session could quickly ensue!? But certainly within the confines of a specific tradition or system the observances of that system should be paramount, I'd consider that only polite. However, in open or groups that aren't tradition based surely there can be some give and take? *shrug*

I have to agree there are numerous ways to establish a Circle from drumming and chanting to dancing or circumambulations. For myself I've found that even within eclectic Circles circumambulations worked because the lead position was there doing a job (illumination of the Circle boundaries in this case) and all else was based on who was dropping out first. That said I don't really have experience of other Circle formats but I am off the opinion that in an eclectic grouping the expression of the group will yield very position benefits to establishing the Circle. Providing a voice of sorts.

Personally a person's sex is between their legs, their gender is between their ears and their sexuality could be a whole range of different things.

Lovin' it!! Can I nick it for Facebook quotations?

One thing I have learned mind that while a person may be pagan that does preclude them from being, ill informed a bigot or an arsehole. Some times people in what is seen as a subculture can be even more cutting to those who are in that same sub culture but more 'other' then they are.

Well being ill-informed I think can be forgiven if independent from the other two. I know of one person in an initiated group that refused to hug a member who'd performed their initiation because they were gay! I know a ceremonial magician who once made the erroneous claim that the vice of Netzach was being homosexual... erm to those not in the know of Qabalah there is no vice of Netzach the very name means Glory! But in this magicians noggin Netzach was connected to sexual reproductive organs and gay people obviously can't reproduce... except for when they do of course!

Nevyn

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Good point! I didn't want to target specific groups as a Order/Trad/Religion bashing session could quickly ensue!? But certainly within the confines of a specific tradition or system the observances of that system should be paramount, I'd consider that only polite.

Closed orders or traditions are just that and their practices are theirs,
as for public circles/ workings/ celebrations being lead by those who are of those orders, well people will often default to a way of working which works best for them.

Being a focus or leading group ritual or managing the engry of a group can be fraught with many hazzards esp if not all the people have worked together before and if someone has a way of doing that which works for them and it means they can do that and have been asked to do it then fine.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

However, in open or groups that aren't tradition based surely there can be some give and take? *shrug*

Depends on who is doing it/running it and the context.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

I have to agree there are numerous ways to establish a Circle from drumming and chanting to dancing or circumambulations. For myself I've found that even within eclectic Circles circumambulations worked because the lead position was there doing a job (illumination of the Circle boundaries in this case) and all else was based on who was dropping out first. That said I don't really have experience of other Circle formats but I am off the opinion that in an eclectic grouping the expression of the group will yield very position benefits to establishing the Circle. Providing a voice of sorts.p

Again there are many different roles which a 'leader' or facilitator can take depending on the rite/circle, how the power is being raised and worked and safe guarded and where they come from themselves and their strengths as an engery worker and what the occasion calls for.

Some times there is nothing like doing the hokey cokey, it can be just the thing if mirth is called for

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Lovin' it!! Can I nick it for Facebook quotations?

Work away.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Well being ill-informed I think can be forgiven if independent from the other two.

I agree.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

I know of one person in an initiated group that refused to hug a member who'd performed their initiation because they were gay!

How utterly sad and to my mind frankly disrespectful on many levels.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

I know a ceremonial magician who once made the erroneous claim that the vice of Netzach was being homosexual... erm to those not in the know of Qabalah there is no vice of Netzach the very name means Glory! But in this magicians noggin Netzach was connected to sexual reproductive organs and gay people obviously can't reproduce... except for when they do of course!

Over the years I have found there is nothing more odd then folk and the notions they can have or acquire. There are time it is not our place, position or remit to correct people, but we don't have to agree and we don't have to keep their company, never mind take part in rites and rituals with them.

One thing I do find at times lacking in neo paganism here in Ireland is queer craft along the lines of Feri and Reclaiming. I don't know if those ways/books just never got any exposure over here or not.

Abhainn-Rivers

One thing I do find at times lacking in neo paganism here in Ireland is queer craft along the lines of Feri and Reclaiming. I don't know if those ways/books just never got any exposure over here or not.

There is the Queer Pagans in Ireland group page on Facebook which alas has been very quiet of late. I find that so odd since there is so many pagan friends on FB that identify as LGBTQ (LGBTQ-friendly is included by association in my books). We also had talked about hosting an event this year but people's schedules seemed to get so busy plus vocal people were scarce and we really felt it had to be as open to input as possible.

chebe

I can't really speak on Circles, being fairly antisocial in that respect, but to me, even if you are dealing with specifically gendered energies, no-one is 100% one thing or the other, surely it could be made to work. That said, I'm not going to argue with tradition or what works for people.

I think, regarding the origin of this, there may be something in the belief in sanctity of your body, and discovering the mysterious associated with your sex. It is easy to see how that can be taken too far. This is something I would agree with, except I also believe that not everything in nature is born static, and often the circumstances you find yourself born into aren't the right ones for you. I see everyone as being made up of different ratios of different things, and have little problem with people not sticking to strict roles based on their sex.

(This has probably come out all wrong, and I apologise for any offence, I'm running back and forth trying not to burn brownies.)

Nevyn

Brownies did you say, they are such tasty, tasty magic.