Kestrel & female Hen Harrier (was - Can anyone identify these raptors?)

Iridium

Having never seen a raptor in my life before, I was pretty chuffed to see two in the last week. The only problem is, being a complete newbie, I have no idea what they are! If any of you could enlighten me I'd be very grateful.

The first image was taken from the beach near Castlegregory, Co. Kerry last Monday. The bird caught my attention because it was hovering in one spot over some sand dunes, without having to beat its wings very often. It didn't appear to be very big, but all I couldn't make out any detail, all I could see was a silhouette, as the Sun was near enough to it from my vantage point.

The second image was captured yesterday at Lough Boora Parklands, Co. Offaly. This bird was a lot bigger than the first, although it was also a lot further away and the Sun wasn't long from setting, so apologies for the quality of the image. An experienced pair of eyes might still be able to identify it though, I hope!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The first is a Kestrel. The second seems to be a Buzzard.

snowstreams

The white area around the tail on the second picture could mean its a female hen harrier either.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

snowstreams wrote: »

The white area around the tail on the second picture could mean its a female hen harrier either.

You could well be right. I'm looking at it on a low spec laptop outdoors so the light is making a poor picture probably worse.

marlin vs

Sparrow hawk and Hen Harrier.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I can't see where you get Sparrowhawk from. We have the distinct sub-terminal black band with white on the tail tip. The moustachial stripe on face which is also very clear.

And -

The bird caught my attention because it was hovering in one spot over some sand dunes

Feargal as Luimneach

1st bird is male Kestrel
2nd bird is female-type hen harrier as snowstreams suggested.

Iridium

Thanks a lot for all the input folks. Had no idea where to even start, since there's very little detail discernible. The quality of the second photo is annoying me. The bird was originally a fair bit closer to me, but by the time I got the camera ready it had flown away.

Not sure how relevant it is, but the area it was flying over is a designated conservation area for partridges (but didn't see any of those!) There were signs around the place saying that there were hares also, of which I saw two.

snowstreams

The Lough Boora Parklands seem to have quite a few records of Harriers on irishbirding.com So you were in the right place to get a photo of one.
Its not a bad photo to get if the light is fading like you said. Ive tried many times to get good Buzzard photos, its just so difficult to get a good close shot. They just move off just before your ready to snap! :rolleyes:

marlin vs

Graysen Prickly Platypus wrote: »

I can't see where you get Sparrowhawk from. We have the distinct sub-terminal black band with white on the tail tip. The moustachial stripe on face which is also very clear.

And -

I just thought the wing's on the bird in the first picture weren't pointed enough to be a Kestrel.

Feargal as Luimneach

Iridium wrote: »

Thanks a lot for all the input folks. Had no idea where to even start, since there's very little detail discernible. The quality of the second photo is annoying me. The bird was originally a fair bit closer to me, but by the time I got the camera ready it had flown away.

Not sure how relevant it is, but the area it was flying over is a designated conservation area for partridges (but didn't see any of those!) There were signs around the place saying that there were hares also, of which I saw two.

Go up behind the model airplane club and you will see the Gray Partridge....

Connacht

Lads, while I bow to your superior knowledge, are ye sure the first bird isn't a Peregrine ?

"it was hovering in one spot over some sand dunes, without having to beat its wings very often".

Is a Kestrel able to do that ? I know a Peregrine is. I thought a Kestrel beat its wings non-stop when hovering ? Also, is the moustache not too prominent and dark to be a Kestrel ? Just asking, like.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

http://ic2.pbase.com/v3/13/6313/1/44718319.peregrinott4x.jpg Peregrine
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/214594/129154.JPG Kestrel

cuddlycavies

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

1st bird is male Kestrel
2nd bird is female-type hen harrier as snowstreams suggested.

+1

trebor28

heres a pic from google of a kestral.



the fact that it was near the beach couldnt it mean there was a strong enough onshore breeze to provide a non hovering bird like a peregrine falcon with enough lift to hover?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Look, let's not confuse the issue any further. It's a Kestrel.

Iridium

Hehe, didn't think I'd start such a debate!

Without trying to say anyone's right or wrong, cause I honestly have no idea about how to tell one raptor from another, the bird in image posted by trebor28 seems to have a similar profile to the bird I saw. By that I mean that before I was able to get a picture of it, it was hovering in one spot with its tail fanned out, and head pointed downward like the bird in the picture. But all I could see was its silhouette, as it was in the same area of the sky as the Sun, so I couldn't make out any colours or markings. The actual picture I took was when it was moving from one spot to another, which may explain why it's tail is no longer fanned out, before it began to hover again. Unfortunately that's when my camera's batteries decided they were done for the day so I only got the one, fairly blurry shot of it.

Thanks again for all the input. Having now seen my first raptors I'm sure to make a conscious effort to look out for more.

trebor28

Graysen Prickly Platypus wrote: »

Look, let's not confuse the issue any further. It's a Kestrel.

and of course you were there with iridium on the day and can verify exactly what these birds were!
:rolleyes:

Feargal as Luimneach

trebor28 wrote: »

and of course you were there with iridium on the day and can verify exactly what these birds were!
:rolleyes:

What specific id features lead you think that it's not a kestrel?

trebor28

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

What specific id features lead you think that it's not a kestrel?

not saying its not a kestrel, just dont appreciate srameen's condescending tone in response to my proposed theory of why there is a chance it could be a peregrine!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

trebor28 wrote: »

not saying its not a kestrel, just dont appreciate srameen's condescending tone in response to my proposed theory of why there is a chance it could be a peregrine!

Calm down, nobody is being condescending. You threw in a red herring. The picture is clearly a Kestrel and the behaviour that of a Kestrel. Why suggest a Peregrine? You gave no logical or meaningful reason whatsoever. Peregrines do not hover even in a stiff wind.

trebor28

Graysen Prickly Platypus wrote: »

Calm down, nobody is being condescending. You threw in a red herring. The picture is clearly a Kestrel and the behaviour that of a Kestrel. Why suggest a Peregrine? You gave no logical or meaningful reason whatsoever. Peregrines do not hover even in a stiff wind.

peregrines can hover, maybe not to the extent that kestrels do but they still hover.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

We could discuss the definition of hover for a month. Peregrines ride the wind and can hold still against a stiff breeze for something like 5 to 8 seconds. But controlled hovers with head down hunting is different. That said, there was no doubt that in this case (photo evidence) we had a Kestrel and I didn't think contradicting experienced birders was any help to the OP. Enough said though. I don't come on here for an argument.:)

MB Lacey

Graysen Prickly Platypus wrote: »

we had a Kestrel and I didn't think contradicting experienced birders was any help to the OP

Disagree. I for one, find it way more informative to have a discussion on id and I learn more from reading your knowledge than from a thread that goes along the lines of 'What's this bird?' 'It's a Kestrel, now shut up and don't dare question me'.

I learn from the discussions on here and I'm glad someone (dared to!) disagree with an 'experienced birder' as it's lead to a discussion on hovering which was really interesting.
More discussion and question raising without the fear of being slammed down on this brilliant forum thanks

Connacht

I am with MB Lacey and Trebor on this one.
Srameen, you are clearly one of the very most knowledgeable on this forum. However, your tone here is indeed condescending, IMHO. I am certainly no expert, but agree with Trebor that Peregrines can 'hover' in a stiff breeze - I've seen it myself. And, yes, I appreciate that that probably doesn't technically constitute 'hovering', but I think you know what is meant.
I come on here for the great photos and experts like you and Feargal. However, I don't think there is any need for any contributor to 'look down' on others who are less knowledgeable and just wishing to learn.
As far as I can gather, almost everbody on this brilliant forum is a nature lover. Some are more knowledgeable nature lovers than others - well done to you. Does that mean we have to have 'Division 1' contributors and a 'Division 2' below them, who bow and curtsy ?

Feargal as Luimneach

Connacht wrote: »

I am with MB Lacey and Trebor on this one.
Srameen, you are clearly one of the very most knowledgeable on this forum. However, your tone here is indeed condescending, IMHO. I am certainly no expert, but agree with Trebor that Peregrines can 'hover' in a stiff breeze - I've seen it myself. And, yes, I appreciate that that probably doesn't technically constitute 'hovering', but I think you know what is meant.
I come on here for the great photos and experts like you and Feargal. However, I don't think there is any need for any contributor to 'look down' on others who are less knowledgeable and just wishing to learn.
As far as I can gather, almost everbody on this brilliant forum is a nature lover. Some are more knowledgeable nature lovers than others - well done to you. Does that mean we have to have 'Division 1' contributors and a 'Division 2' below them, who bow and curtsy ?

I know a fair bit about birds(feathered ones!), but I wouldn't consider myself an expert!

MB Lacey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I know a fair bit about birds(feathered ones!), but I wouldn't consider myself an expert!

Ah Fearg - now no-one's an expert in birds - there's always something new to learn, but you're pretty damn good with your ids!!

You got that challenge thing right - it was a juv Great Northern Diver http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?pid=5727189&fbid=437281351642&id=359318831642&ref=nf

Birdnuts

The wife has made it very clear that I'm an expert on pretty much everything;)

Feargal as Luimneach

Birdnuts wrote: »

The wife has made it very clear that I'm an expert on pretty much everything;)

Sounds like your the Bird (non-feathered) expert:D

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I wouldn't consider myself an expert!

Like it or not Feargal you meet all the criteria and must be considered as such.

Kess73

Connacht wrote: »

I am with MB Lacey and Trebor on this one.
Srameen, you are clearly one of the very most knowledgeable on this forum. However, your tone here is indeed condescending, IMHO. I am certainly no expert, but agree with Trebor that Peregrines can 'hover' in a stiff breeze - I've seen it myself. And, yes, I appreciate that that probably doesn't technically constitute 'hovering', but I think you know what is meant.
I come on here for the great photos and experts like you and Feargal. However, I don't think there is any need for any contributor to 'look down' on others who are less knowledgeable and just wishing to learn.
As far as I can gather, almost everbody on this brilliant forum is a nature lover. Some are more knowledgeable nature lovers than others - well done to you. Does that mean we have to have 'Division 1' contributors and a 'Division 2' below them, who bow and curtsy ?

In defence of Srameen, he has never come across as condescending to me, and his original comment that people reacted to, did contain the winking smiley which suggests his tone was humourous/tongue in cheek.

tricky D

Kess73 wrote: »

In defence of Srameen, he has never come across as condescending to me, and his original comment that people reacted to, did contain the winking smiley which suggests his tone was humourous/tongue in cheek.

+1

It's easy to mistake being authorititive with condescension on the Interwebs. This especially happens when one party is being corrected.

fwiw it's a Kestrel due to the direction of the striation of the feathers on the breast. The PF pattern runs across and the Kestrel's runs down the breast.

Feargal as Luimneach

tricky D wrote: »

+1

It's easy to mistake being authorititive with condescension on the Interwebs. This especially happens when one party is being corrected.

fwiw it's a Kestrel due to the direction of the striation of the feathers on the breast. The PF pattern runs across and the Kestrel's runs down the breast.

That holds true for adult peregrine (ie barring on breast). However juvenile peregrines have vertical streaking which is in similar to vertical spotting/streaking of Kestrel.

IceMaiden

There’s a lot of people with differing ideas, thoughts ,interests & knowledge I would encourage people to post & not be worried what others say or remark so long as it remain civil , to learn & share news ,views & knowledge discussion is surely partly the point & with that comes differing opinions etc, its like the foraging or mushroom threads.

I liked seeing that posters were starting to take part in the outdoors, I believe the countryside is a place a lot of people have lost touch with during the past few years , if its to be valued then I like to read of posters who are starting to take an interest by getting out & enjoying the natural harvest or diverse environment that is to be found.

Trying to identify various species & learn along the way , I hate the thought of most people only experiencing the countryside & nature from a car window, book or computer its not a parkland museum it’s a living breathing ever-changing landscape that’s part of the natural heritage for all people .

Ask questions post your own ideas & thoughts or photographs & expect some to agree & others to disagree, whatever else don’t be put off getting involved & post because it’s a forum that hopefully everyone can take part in if they so wish
We have had Hen harriers on our grounds for the past 10 years & would agree that it’s a female hen harrier & a kestrel however its good people threw a few ideas about before the general consensus was reached.