RTÉ DTT - Arklow transmitter pictured today 27/9/10

This was from directly underneath it.
I didn't want to hang about - so apologies for the quality and strong sun in the background! Apologies also for not re-sizing!

There is a powersupply mini substation underneath it and loads of thick cables.
Would this be fibre fed or off air?

watty

Only by Microwave or Fibre. If there are no dishes, they may add them shortly or it may have fibre. Running Gigabit fibre is as cheap or cheaper than getting the ESB in. In fact the ESB can even provide it at same time, in same trench or poles.

Off air "rebroadcast" or "Transposing" in the conventional analogue sense is very problematic for DTT.

That's why to have really low power "Community Repeaters" are most economically fed from MPEG2-TS from Satellite, hence Saorsat has to be a "Transport Stream" exact copy of DTT, just with DVB-S2 modulation rather than DVB-T. Only two ASI BNC cable outputs needed from special TS receiver(s) to feed the DVB-T modulator for each Mux. The "real" size of the Satellite transponders does't matter as now-adays they can put whatever number of separate carriers they want on one sufficiently wide physical transponder.

So if Saorsat actually works, RTE NL (or a comunity themselves funding it cheaply) can cheaply add 10W or less DTT for small comunities, more easily than a Mobile Phone base station.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

So if Saorsat actually works, RTE NL (or a comunity themselves funding it cheaply) can cheaply add 10W or less DTT for small comunities, more easily than a Mobile Phone base station.

What do you reckon that such a setup would cost a community?

Sponge Bob

Connemara / South Mayo will need 3 or 4 of these relays in Satellite and DTT shadow areas. And should that not be MPEG4-TS in our case??

Nope, the TS itself is still compliant to MPEG-2 standards, it just carries MPEG-4 video.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

Off air "rebroadcast" or "Transposing" in the conventional analogue sense is very problematic for DTT.

This is going to go off-topic a bit, but I wonder how the "relay" stations in the UK that have been DSO'd which have not had prior DTT services are fed. I remember a few years ago that Swiss engineers managed to get a DTT relay system working several chains deep, though from looking at the network they now have they've gone for mini-SFN's with vertical polarisation.

BBC R&D did manage a couple of years ago in Nottingham to get an on-channel DAB repeater to work without affecting SFN reception, so I'd assume that similar principles would apply to DTT there (of course the guard band would need to be long enough). If working on just a straight transposer principle, I'd assume the main problem would be potential sources of impulse interference near the receiving aerial(s).

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

What do you reckon that such a setup would cost a community?

I could do it maybe €15K. Dunno what RTE NL would charge

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

What do you reckon that such a setup would cost a community?

I could do it maybe €15K. Dunno what RTE NL would charge

lawhec

watty wrote: »

I could do it maybe €15K. Dunno what RTE NL would charge

The now long defunct UK DTT Info site (which was alleged to be run by someone close to the UK broadcasting industry) said that the estimated cost of upgrading a low-powered relay station from analogue to DTT was around STG£30,000 per multiplex at 2004 prices.

watty

You can buy DTT modulator about €2K. Feed it from ASI of a professional Transport Stream Satellite Receiver (Tanberg). Use a 100W analogue TV amp as a 10W Digital TV Transmmitter.

Have all that twice.

Have combiner to combine the two transmitters

Add ordinary TV aerial pointed at hamlet.

Catalogue Not Broadcast gear, but OK for Hotel, Apartment or small isolated self-help Community TV
http://www.taylorbros.co.uk/

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

I could do it maybe €15K. Dunno what RTE NL would charge

For a group of 30 houses, say, that works out at €500 per house. Assuming they have iDTVs that can receive the DTT signal, which by 2013 should be so, it would be cheap enough. 100 house would be better, but such a system would certainly be more convenient for them. ESB charges would be not much and maintenance would be small unless there was storm damage.

A good solution for remote areas.

It would be a good solution for remote areas alright but it would have to be funded as paying €20 a month up front to sky as opposed to €500 up front to a community group means many houses would go with sky.

People with no other option who can't see sairsat would be very very rare or zero I would think? but if they exist and have to go for sky,then they should be getting a deep discount on their tv licence.

Theres a repeater for mullaghanish services beaming RTE down into the village of inchigeelah in west cork.
I don't see that one on the list of dtt uprades,so there another few hundred houses for saor sat.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

For a group of 30 houses, say, that works out at €500 per house. Assuming they have iDTVs that can receive the DTT signal, which by 2013 should be so, it would be cheap enough. 100 house would be better, but such a system would certainly be more convenient for them. ESB charges would be not much and maintenance would be small unless there was storm damage.

A good solution for remote areas.

It would be subsidised too. It's up to people to lobby TDs to have the subsidy. The government so far has put diddly all into DTT rollout yet expects to harvest Digital Dividend (€2.4 Billion in Germany, so maybe €24 Million here?)

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

It would be subsidised too. It's up to people to lobby TDs to have the subsidy. The government so far has put diddly all into DTT rollout yet expects to harvest Digital Dividend (€2.4 Billion in Germany, so maybe €24 Million here?)

It will be RTENL that would expect to benefit from the digital dividend. I would think that their income from DTT will be reduced as their will only be two muxes rather than three and a half analogue channels, which will reduce that income by half. All their sites will be prime for moble/3g/broadband use, so should ean them something. Losing the commercial muxes will cost them dear, so they were not the ones holding it up. It was not in their interest atall atall.

watty

RTE NL have been renting out their masts for years. Limited use for 3G (too high and too far from habitation). More Local Radio, Mobile Radio and Fixed Wireless Broadband.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

The government so far has put diddly all into DTT rollout yet expects to harvest Digital Dividend (€2.4 Billion in Germany, so maybe €24 Million here?)

The German Digital Dividend auction raised €3.576 bn. Here Comreg proposes to set a minimum price of €150m for the Digital Dividend spectrum auction.

watty

How much bigger is Germany?

€3.7B? eh greedy twits.

All the more reason that the Government should subsidize those less well off and community schemes.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

All the more reason that the Government should subsidize those less well off and community schemes.

That's one reason behind this tender from the Dept.

1.2. Required Services
1. Development of a TV household questionnaire aimed at finding answers to the following:
a. numbers of TV households nationally that use the different types of television reception methods;
b. numbers of TV households nationally who rely on analogue terrestrial television as their primary method of TV reception, as a function of location;
c. socio-economic circumstances of these analogue only TV households;
d. the ability of these analogue only TV households to upgrade to a digital television service;
e. information on the type of aerial used by these households;
f. the number and location of TV households where some form of assistance may be required in the upgrade to digital; and
g. the type of assistance that such houses may need to upgrade to a digital service.

And the Arklow tx is on the air as reported last night by newleaf.

I'm picking it up here at 60% signal 10% quality approximately 2kms wnw of the tx with an unamplified grid so no channels.
The grid is pointed to Mt Leinster though and horizontal.
This tx is vertical.

Sponge Bob

Cush observed elsewhere that ONLY 2 MUXES are being tested here, 21 and 24. I wonder whether the relays that are enabled from now on will get a 'freeview light' 2 muxes instead of the 4 muxes that were installed and tested on the main transmitters and the early relays ( Greystones/Dungarvan/Woodcock etc)

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Cush observed elsewhere that ONLY 2 MUXES are being tested here, 21 and 24. I wonder whether the relays that are enabled from now on will get a 'freeview light' 2 muxes instead of the 4 muxes that were installed and tested on the main transmitters and the early relays ( Greystones/Dungarvan/Woodcock etc)

The two muxes will probably be the the two PSB muxes gifted to RTÉ in the Broadcasting Act.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Cush observed elsewhere that ONLY 2 MUXES are being tested here, 21 and 24. I wonder whether the relays that are enabled from now on will get a 'freeview light' 2 muxes instead of the 4 muxes that were installed and tested on the main transmitters and the early relays ( Greystones/Dungarvan/Woodcock etc)

RTE NL are not going to run out more than 2 mux (PBX) unless someone else is paying (pay TV).

Technically Analogue Woodcock hasn't been a "relay" for several years and the smaller DTT sites are just smaller DTT. AFAIK absolutely none of the DTT sites will work on "relay" (Transposer or rebroadcast) principle from Main Sites. Only the existing Analogue "Transposers" are Relays. Hence interest in Ka-Sat as backup for the Microwave or Fibre feeding each site. How hard is a fibre feed? No harder than ESB for new sites. A very few existing sites will/are Microwave link fed. My RTE NL mole insisted most upgraded to fibre replacing Microwave. This work was mostly done a few years ago.

The 2008 plan (rather than earlier plan of 2001 which was different) would have only had one "freeview" (PSB Saorview) Mux now and 3 x PayTV mux with additional PSB mux added only after Analogue Switch off. Also possible sixth mux, with I think was also PayTV.

So Sanity has prevailed (in Minister Ryan's office and BAI) in bringing forward 2nd PSB mux from essentially Jan 2013 switch on to use now.

Really there should be a 3rd PSB mux and abandon a PayTV platform forever. Let RTE NL rent out space per channel (average bitrate charge) to commercial operators approved by BAI and if someone wants to do a PayTV channel(s) on that, let them on condition they offer 100% subsidised box & install with minimum 6 month contract if licensed by BAI.

The idea of creating a PayDTT platform operator head-to-head with Cable and Satellite was a bit daft in 2001. Now it's just plain insanity.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

The two muxes will probably be the the two PSB muxes gifted to RTÉ in the Broadcasting Act.

My guess too. However when the 4 mux plan including commercial DTT was still 'alive' RTE did tender for 4 muxes

http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/antennasystemfordtt/Section%203%20-%20Specification%208025AN-03%20-%20%20HRP-VRP%20requirement.pdf

Channels 21 24 27 32

No channel being tested is in the post ASO "6 Mux" plan ( that I never saw anyway )

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

My guess too. However when the 4 mux plan including commercial DTT was still 'alive' RTE did tender for 4 muxes
...
No channel being tested is in the post ASO "6 Mux" plan ( that I never saw anyway )

RTÉNL were responsible for rolling out both the free PSB and commercial multiplexes hence the reason for the 4 Mux tender.

The 6 mux plan includes the existing UHF analogue allocations which only become available after ASO.

Just to update.
I'm now receiving Arklow on ch 24 60% signal and with quality jumping from 20 to 60% with some break up as it dips below 20% for brief seconds.

Nothing on ch 21 but when there was,I couldn't get a picture.
I'm presuming the grid put vertical and pointed ESE [instead of horizontal and SW as it is now] will pull this one in 100:100

I'll have a report from coolgreaney later today about 5 miles due west of the tx ,a village of about a thousand or so with poor Mt Leinster digital due to weak signal and some occasional presely interference.

marclt

I'd say that in Coolgreany the reception on a properly aligned aerial will be fine.

Amazing how these digital signals travel!

Picked up nothing out in coolgreaney,not a peep of a signal.
Here I have signal but no quality so no pictures but I'd be confident that changing the grid from horizontal to vertical and actually pointing it at the tx would change that.

We're getting this perfectly now with the grid realligned vertical

watty

watty wrote: »

Only by Microwave or Fibre. If there are no dishes, they may add them shortly or it may have fibre. Running Gigabit fibre is as cheap or cheaper than getting the ESB in. In fact the ESB can even provide it at same time, in same trench or poles.

I had another good look at the site.They appear to be taking it off air from mt leinster Watty.
Half way up the pole theres a covered commercial grade aerial pointed towards Leinster, with one mother of a thick cable coming out of it going down to the base.

The area where the tx is located has a hill directly behind it less than a km away that would fairly well block presely.Whether this was intuitive to RTENL's choice of site I don't know but from that perspective,if it's an off air feed they wanted,then it was a good choice.
It's on Arklow urban district council property.
Incidently,if they just turned their aerial out to sea (They've a good view out over Arklow Bay there),they could relay arfon fairly well

sbabu_irl

I am in woodlands estate in Arklow and I tried if I can get DTT using this indoor Aerial I bought in Argos

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/9007925/Trail/searchtext%3EINDOOR+AERIAL.htm

No luck. Is the tramission continious or Is it on and off. I was trying in the afternoon at around 1am.

It's on the whole time now iirc.
Does your TV in set up mode allow you to manually tune in ch 21 [not automatic scan but manual]
Can you check signal strength and quality on 21 ?

If you are trying downstairs away from a window and are not the end house at the top end of the road,then it looks like you will need an attic aerial for this or the tiniest contract roof group A aerial,which you can get down in Brennans at castlepark [in the carpark opposite the credit union]

Get whatever length of aerial cable from them aswell that you will need and an aerial plug.

sbabu_irl

The TV is downstairs beside a window. My TV does allow manual set-up but is not displaying signal strength and quality bars..

It a samsung LE46C530 model.

I think the only option now is to get the Antenna suggested by you from Brennans electricals. Do you know how much it would cost me. Just a rough idea will do.

Thats a samsung,I know someone that has one.
You can check signal strength manually by looking at what displays when set to ch 21.I'd have to have it in front of me to know exactly

Regardless,Brennans should have a group A aerial for around as little as a tenner to €30 to €50 and cable for something like 40 to 50c a metre
They may have not heard of the new arklow transmitter yet,but they should have the right aerial in stock as it's the same type as they would sell for mt leinster uhf.

Make sure it's a group A aerial [it will have a red top on it] that they give you and when you get it,make sure you allign it vertically like in the image below when pointing towards knockenrahan.

The aerials on top in this image are uhf aerials with their rods aligned vertically.
The top left one is like what you'll get only the one you get will be much smaller.
You could also go for a grid aerial like the one on the right.
Regardless allign them like in the photo.

Ignore the aerials below it as they are vhf.
Mount it on the gable end at the back of the house if it has a view or pick a spot in the general direction of knockenrahan that has the least amount of obstacles in the way like houses or tree's.
It will be trial and error.
It might work in your loft upstairs either but a gable end outside is best.

To get the signal strength on a C530, go to Menu > Self Diagnosis > Signal Information. It doesn't give quality though.

just to update.
I'm loving the new sony ex403!
It has a very good signal page complete with fec details [biteri] agc and cn etc

For itv1 hd at the moment it's showing 94% signal and 100% quality on presely ch 50

RTE on ch 21 from Arklow is 98% strength and also 100% quality

The picture quality on itv1 hd [matrix revolutions on at the moment] is excelent,truly excelent! (as is the rtenl hd test also incidently)
I've re ordered the epg to have rte one and two as number 6 and 7 and itv1 hd as number 3 instead of itv1 wales.

It feels a bit unusual to see london tonight [as it's the london version of itv] coming in on an aerial.
I'll get round to some pic's in a few days.

upsilon

dtt way launch yesterday but still no tv3

darkestlord

I'm living in Tinahely. What chance do you think I have picking up dtt with an aerial in the loft or would I have to mount it on the outside. Any suggestion on what aerial. Thanks

Difficult.
Do you have tv3/tg4 analogue from mt leinster?
Kippure is probably impossible.

Tinahely is surrounded by very close hills which is usually a dtt nightmare.
An outside aerial would be a given.Group b

That said,presely wales actually gets through by weaving around hills but then it's very strong near croghan which over looks the sea albeit a few miles inland.
That area is only a few miles East of you as the crow flies.

darkestlord

Thanks Blackbriar. I'm new to all this and I'm thinking of getting rid of sky. I'm actually confusing myself now. I actually meant Saorview, the rte channels. Could I get that and what aerial would be better. One in the loft or the outside. Was thinking of getting my-self a humux box for satelite and a aerial for the rte channels.

Sponge Bob

That sounds like the best bet. As for Preseli ask any neighbour with a large aerial pointing SE whether they get the UK channels reliably on that. If you see no such aerial it probably isn't available.

If you 'get rid of sky' you will continue to pick up a load of UK channels anyway ( free on the sky box) but will lose the Irish ones ...particularly <sniff > TV3 .

There are a lot of presely aerials in Tinahely , most unused now as many switched to freesat long before welsh dso.

See the thread on combo boxes as in theory you could get saorview and freesat on one box.
Again if you want a good aerial installer,I'll give you a contact if you pm me.
They'll have a good meter and can try kippure and mt leinster for you.

darkestlord

Thanks Blackbriar for your help. I've read loads of posts on here and I'm starting to understand now. I think the combo box is the way to go. But what I understand by Watty's site is that Saorsat has'nt started up yet. So I could be waiting a while. Before I get the combo box and a new dish is it worth waiting to see if RTE mess around with anything. Better to see what the market offers. . Sorry to get off topic. I inderstand this is terrestrial. Thanks

The combo box does satellite and terrestrial.

The idea of it is you get the freesat channels and the saorview terrestrial channels eg rte etc on the one box

If you have a sat dish already,all you need now is the aerial and the combo box.

We got a rocking solid signal from Arklow in coolgreaney north wexford today with no amp,just a contract group A aerial.Thats about 5 miles west of this extremely low power tx.

A wideband over the road here too went in today and through tree's and despite the place being at or below sea level in a dip , it nearly set the box on fire the signal is so strong.

This dtt thing is one sturdy signal!