Green Economy

Corsendonk

Everyone seems to be talking about the green economy as a way Ireland can pull its economy around but does anyone know what it is and how it helps Ireland?

Mister men

It's a big spoof. A buzz word no different than the "smart economy".

Amhran Nua

Its essentially any industry or job that helps reduce pollution and carbon emissions, not neccessarily building solar panels. There is a growing international appetite for Green industry and its products, which means another feather in our cap when it comes to exporting products abroad. With our industrial base as wildly underdeveloped as it is, the potential exists to build a green industrial economy from the ground up, reinforcing the "green" image of the Emerald Isle.

Buzzword it may be, but the money people are prepared to pay for this buzzword spends as well as any other.

RealityCheck

At least in the 80s we had a credible and enforcable plan to attract multinationals here on the basis of having good cheap labour, low tax etc.

This time we are talking about buzz words like "knowledge economy" and "green economy" and at the end of the day they are just buzz words, nothing else. We have an idea of where we want to go but no real idea how.

What will be the result?

Wanton waste of taxpayers money is what. Money that would be better spent elsewhere.

ei.sdraob

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its essentially any industry or job that helps reduce pollution and carbon emissions, not neccessarily building solar panels. There is a growing international appetite for Green industry and its products, which means another feather in our cap when it comes to exporting products abroad. With our industrial base as wildly underdeveloped as it is, the potential exists to build a green industrial economy from the ground up, reinforcing the "green" image of the Emerald Isle.

Buzzword it may be, but the money people are prepared to pay for this buzzword spends as well as any other.

You forgot to mention some of these jobs (solar heating, insulation) are highly subsidised by the taxpayer, and needless to say its still a steep price to pay for less well off to get the benefits the above 2 for example. In many cases some of the installers have increased their price for solar heaters by the same amount as the subsidy, talk about a cruel joke!

Last thing we need is yet another industry reliant on subsidies, we already have the ridiculous situation of farmers getting paid to grown nothing.

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You forgot to mention some of these jobs (solar heating, insulation) are highly subsidised by the taxpayer, and needless to say its still a steep price to pay for less well off to get the benefits the above 2 for example. In many cases some of the installers have increased their price for solar heaters by the same amount as the subsidy, talk about a cruel joke!

Who mentioned the building and construction trades? The government is trying to give the many unemployed in that area something to do, thats a different issue to what a Green economy should be, exporting green products and industrial growth rather than the economic ouroboros of construction.

Above and beyond this, the general opposition of free marketeers to government involvement in anything is only marginally better than the NAMA advocates. There are a great many examples of successful government direction in industry, most extant of which is China, or Japan if you wanted to go back a couple fo decades with MITI. TO paraphrase from another forum:

If China's state run economy has proved one thing it's that the free-market unmanaged economies of the West will time and again fail to even comprehend the forces arrayed against them. Narrow minded "Market Based" thinking is exactly what got us into this single supplier problem and naively thinking it will get us out is naive.

Whatever you think the "free-market" will do to get us out of this mess, the Chinese economic mega-complex has already considered three moves in advance and is working to counter it. People don't seem to understand that China-Inc is essentially the world greatest ever hyper-corporation: millions of companies, thousands of major corporations, and hundreds of banks all working under one overall direction and policy. Just about every trick you'd expect a major-corporation to pull can and has been considered, strategised and implemented by the this acutely self aware market entity.

What's really going on here is that the Chinese Communist Party has developed (invented really) a state controlled, capitalism driven, centrally managed and wholly unified economy; and it's as powerful an apparatus as you'd expect. It's one of the biggest civil and economic developments in world history. And if you expect this electric dragon--a vast, powerful and above all self aware economy under the control of a central brain--to act like your traditionally lauded free market fungus-like economies--efficient, large or small, but hopelessly undirected and prone to bottom feeding-- you are mistaken from the very outset. The Communist Party does not wait for startups, demand, financiers, or any other "market forces" to act. They order entire economic sectors to be created, dismantled and transformed overnight.

And it has made them the richest country in the world.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Last thing we need is yet another industry reliant on subsidies, we already have the ridiculous situation of farmers getting paid to grown nothing.

Funnily enough there is a reason for that, to maintain food independence. I don't agree with the government implementation of it but the underlying theory is sound enough.

ei.sdraob

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Who mentioned the building and construction trades? The government is trying to give the many unemployed in that area something to do, thats a different issue to what a Green economy should be, exporting green products and industrial growth rather than the economic ouroboros of construction.

Above and beyond this, the general opposition of free marketeers to government involvement in anything is only marginally better than the NAMA advocates. There are a great many examples of successful government direction in industry, most extant of which is China, or Japan if you wanted to go back a couple fo decades with MITI. TO paraphrase from another forum:

If China's state run economy has proved one thing it's that the free-market unmanaged economies of the West will time and again fail to even comprehend the forces arrayed against them. Narrow minded "Market Based" thinking is exactly what got us into this single supplier problem and naively thinking it will get us out is naive.

Whatever you think the "free-market" will do to get us out of this mess, the Chinese economic mega-complex has already considered three moves in advance and is working to counter it. People don't seem to understand that China-Inc is essentially the world greatest ever hyper-corporation: millions of companies, thousands of major corporations, and hundreds of banks all working under one overall direction and policy. Just about every trick you'd expect a major-corporation to pull can and has been considered, strategised and implemented by the this acutely self aware market entity.

What's really going on here is that the Chinese Communist Party has developed (invented really) a state controlled, capitalism driven, centrally managed and wholly unified economy; and it's as powerful an apparatus as you'd expect. It's one of the biggest civil and economic developments in world history. And if you expect this electric dragon--a vast, powerful and above all self aware economy under the control of a central brain--to act like your traditionally lauded free market fungus-like economies--efficient, large or small, but hopelessly undirected and prone to bottom feeding-- you are mistaken from the very outset. The Communist Party does not wait for startups, demand, financiers, or any other "market forces" to act. They order entire economic sectors to be created, dismantled and transformed overnight.

And it has made them the richest country in the world.
.

China is far from the richest country in the world, and are in a middle of huge bubble

I find it amusing that you want us to be like China, a country with corruption (hey aint that your parties main issue with Irish politics?) so rife it would make our gombeens look like newbies, corruption that has been ingrained and fostered for a very long time.
A country with much less political and economic freedoms than rest (once again i observe that your party seems to admire some reason this centralised authoritarianism)
Yes they are currently practising some very worrying and unfair mercantilist policies at the expense of the rest of the world economy, but thats because we let them

You blame the market for all the problems when you know well the issues started with government and central bank interventions in the economies coupled with no regulation.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Funnily enough there is a reason for that, to maintain food independence. I don't agree with the government implementation of it but the underlying theory is sound enough.

Trying to maintain food independence. yes a very noble but misguided pursuit that resulted in the exact opposite of what many countries who tried it expected, i recommend you read this book on economics history it examines in detail how many countries have went down this path only to lead to the exact opposite of what they intended in the processes making food more expensive and unreliable for their citizens

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I find it amusing that you want us to be like China

No, I don't. But we can learn lessons from their economic success.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

, a country with corruption (hey aint that your parties main issue with Irish politics?) so rife it would make our gombeens look like newbies, corruption that has been ingrained and fostered for a very long time.
A country with much less political and economic freedoms than rest (once again i observe that your party seems to admire some reason this centralised authoritarianism)
Yes they are currently practising some very worrying and unfair mercantilist policies at the expense of the rest of the world economy, but thats because we let them

Sorry, they can't hear you over the sound of your money clinking in their pockets.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You blame the market for all the problems when you know well the issues started with government and central bank interventions in the economies coupled with no regulation.

I certainly do not blame the market for everything, as well you know. I recognise a successful strategy and want to take whats best from it, which is the difference between us and any dogmatic position, including the free marketeers, a philosophy that was responsible in no small part for the damage wrought by the Irish potato famine while we're on the subject.

Honestly, you can't have a discussion about creating jobs in this place without some self-made-man burbling about subsidies. Our entire corporation tax is one giant subsidy, and I defy you to say that hasn't been good for Ireland.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Trying to maintain food independence. yes a very noble but misguided pursuit

Not noble, vital. Unless you want to depend for your daily bread on the likes of Gadaffi.

Corsendonk

Wow really good, so where in Ireland do we manufacture the equipment needed for the Green economy?

Corsendonk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Not noble, vital. Unless you want to depend for your daily bread on the likes of Gadaffi.

We don't have food independence, haven't had it for years unless there is someone out there that lives on a diet of spuds, milk and meat?

Amhran Nua

Corsendonk wrote: »

Wow really good, so where in Ireland do we manufacture the equipment needed for the Green economy?

With a few exceptions we generally don't.

Corsendonk wrote: »

We don't have food independence, haven't had it for years unless there is someone out there that lives on a diet of spuds, milk and meat?

As you mention it, you can live a perfectly healthy life on spuds and milk, maybe some eggs as well, I know a man that does just that. The food independence is European-wide in this case however.

Scarab80

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Sorry, they can't hear you over the sound of your money clinking in their pockets.

And who's pockets is that exactly?

China use the productivity of their employees to purchase foreign currency to keep their currency depressed instead of letting it flow back into their own economy to raise living standards for their employees.

There is plenty of money clinking about the Chinese treasury, not so much in it's citizens pockets.

Corsendonk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

With a few exceptions we generally don't.


As you mention it, you can live a perfectly healthy life on spuds and milk, maybe some eggs as well, I know a man that does just that. The food independence is European-wide in this case however.

So to build this green economy we invest loads of money buying equipment such as turbines from Denmark and Germany and also employ them to install them. Wonderful for their economies.


Then doesn't the high rate of the "not in my back garden" protests in Ireland force the cost of any green installation up. Just thinking of protests about wind turbines ruining the landscape, the dangers of cancer from the east-west interconnector that were in the news recently.

Scarab80

Corsendonk wrote: »

So to build this green economy we invest loads of money buying equipment such as turbines from Denmark and Germany and also employ them to install them. Wonderful for their economies.

Non-green electricity generating equipment still requires foreign produced turbines and infrastucture plus foreign produced oil, coal and gas. At least with renewable energy we are using our own natural resources to generate power instead of importing it.

Corsendonk wrote: »

Then doesn't the high rate of the "not in my back garden" protests in Ireland force the cost of any green installation up. Just thinking of protests about wind turbines ruining the landscape, the dangers of cancer from the east-west interconnector that were in the news recently.

Yes, it's a major problem.

Amhran Nua

Corsendonk wrote: »

Then doesn't the high rate of the "not in my back garden" protests in Ireland force the cost of any green installation up. Just thinking of protests about wind turbines ruining the landscape, the dangers of cancer from the east-west interconnector that were in the news recently.

I was working on anchored floating wind turbines which float out of sight off the coast before the economy collapsed, so its not a showstopper. With that said you don't need to be building the iconic wind turbines/solar panels to qualify as a green industry, you could be designing a windscreen wiper that uses less water or something and get the green stamp of approval.

Amhran Nua

Scarab80 wrote: »

China use the productivity of their employees to purchase foreign currency to keep their currency depressed instead of letting it flow back into their own economy to raise living standards for their employees.

It keeps its currency low by fiat, it just doesn't allow it to be freely traded except in a very limited manner. The buying of foreign currency (seven percent of US foreign debt) is more for the purchase of the vast resources they need to keep the industrial machine running, among other things.

Scarab80 wrote: »

There is plenty of money clinking about the Chinese treasury, not so much in it's citizens pockets.

The middle class is growing rapidly there, however the majority of the wealth is going to the uber-wealthy. This does not obviate the point.

Scarab80

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It keeps its currency low by fiat, it just doesn't allow it to be freely traded except in a very limited manner. The buying of foreign currency (seven percent of US foreign debt) is more for the purchase of the vast resources they need to keep the industrial machine running, among other things.

http://www.treasury.gov/offices/international-affairs/economic-exchange-rates/pdf/Foreign%20Exchange%20Report%20July%202010.pdf

US Treasury wrote:

In order to limit renminbi movement against the dollar, the PBOC purchases and sells foreign exchange reserves on a daily basis. Cumulatively, China has been a net purchaser of foreign exchange over the last ten years, as China has acted much more often to limit renminbi appreciation, rather than depreciation. These foreign exchange purchases reflect the PBOC’s efforts to resist renminbi appreciation against the dollar. Although the pace of reserve accumulation has declined slightly over the past year, China continues to purchase large amounts of foreign exchange, adding to its reserves. In 2009, China’s net purchases of foreign exchange reserves totaled $398 billion (8.1 percent of GDP), down from $480 billion (10.8 percent of GDP) in 2008, primarily reflecting China’s narrowing current account surplus. In the first quarter of 2010, China purchased $96 billion (8.2 percent of GDP) in foreign exchange reserves, on pace with its 2009 accumulation.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The middle class is growing rapidly there, however the majority of the wealth is going to the uber-wealthy. This does not obviate the point.

Indeed some of the money has been allowed into the economy but not an amount on par with their productivity.

Amhran Nua

Scarab80 wrote: »

http://www.treasury.gov/offices/international-affairs/economic-exchange-rates/pdf/Foreign%20Exchange%20Report%20July%202010.pdf

Ah I see, thats only part of the picture however, China has long used a fixed exchange rate:

A fixed exchange rate, sometimes called a pegged exchange rate, is a type of exchange rate regime wherein a currency's value is matched to the value of another single currency or to a basket of other currencies, or to another measure of value, such as gold

...

Another, less used means of maintaining a fixed exchange rate is by simply making it illegal to trade currency at any other rate. This is difficult to enforce and often leads to a black market in foreign currency. Nonetheless, some countries are highly successful at using this method due to government monopolies over all money conversion. This was the method employed by the Chinese government to maintain a currency peg or tightly banded float against the US dollar. Throughout the 1990s, China was highly successful at maintaining a currency peg using a government monopoly over all currency conversion between the yuan and other currencies.

The RMB was pegged to the dollar up until June of this year, when a little more flexibility was allowed, as in a couple of percent, largely a political move to stop themselves being the centre of attention at the G-20 summit. The RMB is convertible on current accounts, but not capital accounts, although the days of the dual track currency are over, which means that you are partly correct, but the picture is a bit more complex.

Scarab80 wrote: »

Indeed some of the money has been allowed into the economy but not an amount on par with their productivity.

Very true, however the economic model flies in the face of the free marketeer brigade. There's no reason why a more equitable distribution of wealth would change that.

ei.sdraob

@Amhran Nua

import substitution (aka self sufficiency) and turning inward has been a failure many many times in the history of countries and their economies,

The best example would be Argentina (yes that country with huge amounts of agri land), hell the term Peronism was coined after the policies of their inward looking el presidente, this is a country that went from being in the top 10 richest in world at turn of 20th century ahead of France and Italy to being a serial defaulter after repeated failures of policies that you propose.

after WW2 they sealed of the country behind high trade barriers trying to encourage local manufacturing farming etc , it resulted in the country stagnating and falling from the list of most advanced and developed countries and well the rest is history

---

As for China, you obviously miss the irony of yourself admiring an authoritarian state with ingrained corruption at every level which takes away its citizens freedoms and keeps them under a thumb (hey I bet they cant even read this thread now!),
a state where a party and people like yourself would be prosecuted and knocked back on you knees or worse just killed for your political ideas

but yeh carry on admiring :rolleyes: the very qualities that you have complained so much about when talking about the Irish politics, multiplied by hundred


as I said they are following some mercantilist policies that are buggering us and US, but thats because we let them

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

after WW2 they sealed of the country behind high trade barriers trying to encourage local manufacturing farming

While you're busy quivering with righteous indignation at the wicked old government interfering with the poor innocent free market, you managed to miss the point entirely. Its not about the best prices or even the best quality for food, its about war proofing so you don't end up like the Philippines with a hungry population because you turned all your rice into cash crops. Its not economics, its survival, which in a roundabout way is economics I suppose.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

As for China, you obviously miss the irony of yourself admiring am authoritarian state with ingrained corruption at every level which takes away its citizens freedoms and keeps them under a thumb (hey I bet they cant even read this thread now!),
a state where a party and people like yourself would be prosecuted and knocked back on you knees or worse just killed

Putting words in my mouth and ignoring all the other points raised doesn't make your argument any better. If you read back there you'll see China was cited as the most extant example of successful state intervention in industry, which it is. This is a standard of realism which those holding to a dogmatic point of view on free markets can rarely compehend.

On other issues regarding China I am unquestionably one of the most outspoken individuals about their abuses.

Other examples would be MITI in Japan, the South Korean economic miracle, even Denmark with its national focus on wind turbines in the 90s, which has landed it with four billion in exports and around thirty thousand people employed today.

Corsendonk

Should I rename this the corruption in China Thread?

What about carbon trading?