John Hume

Denerick

The years are slowly beginning to pass and a time will come when the NI Troubles will be viewed from a more measured and less passionate lense. But that time is not yet here

With regard to that, how will John Hume be remembered by history, and to what extent can the GFA be ascribed to him personally? I've also heard that he is suffering the rigours of old age particularly badly (Do the math) Can anyone confirm or deny that?

PatsytheNazi

Denerick wrote: »

The years are slowly beginning to pass and a time will come when the NI Troubles will be viewed from a more measured and less passionate lense. But that time is not yet here

With regard to that, how will John Hume be remembered by history, and to what extent can the GFA be ascribed to him personally? I've also heard that he is suffering the rigours of old age particularly badly (Do the math) Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Well I suppose Offical Ireland will protray him as a peace maker, moderate etc beyond doubt. Not much time for him myself. Like the SDLP itself, he was just all declarations, aspirations, hopes and dreams etc. Very little substance. He would have been pushed aside by the political pitbulls when it came to dealing with unionism - Sinn Fein.

Denerick

Official Ireland? Who's that?

Anyway, Hume is a good example of why violence wasn't necessary during The Troubles.

Morlar

Denerick wrote: »

Anyway, Hume is a good example of why violence wasn't necessary during The Troubles.

What exactly did he achieve for the beleagured catholic population before the IRA resurgence (in terms of tangible progress) ?

I don't mean 'uniting people behind a common sense of community spirit' or anything fluffy like that, I mean tangible achievements pre IRA ?

donaghs

Morlar wrote: »

What exactly did he achieve for the beleagured catholic population before the IRA resurgence (in terms of tangible progress) ?

I don't mean 'uniting people behind a common sense of community spirit' or anything fluffy like that, I mean tangible achievements pre IRA ?

A few ideas here...

He helped found the Credit Union movement in Northern Ireland. A very tangible benefit in a place with real deprivation like Derry.

He was involved in the Civil Rights movement which helped achieve the following:

* Friday 8 November 1968
Londonderry Corporation agreed to a Nationalist request to introduce a points system in the allocation of public sector housing.

* Friday 22 November 1968
Terence O'Neill, then Northern Ireland Prime Minister, announced a package of reform measures which had resulted from meetings in London with Harold Wilson, then British Prime Minister, and James Callaghan, then British Home Secretary. The five point reform plan included:

a nine member 'Development Commission' to take over the powers of the Londonderry Corporation;
an ombudsman to investigate complaints against government departments;
the allocation of houses by local authorities to be based on need;
the Special Powers Act to be abolished as it was safe to do so; and
some reform of the local government franchise (the end of the company votes).

* Tuesday 11 March 1969
The Parliamentary Commissioner Bill was introduced which would allow for the appointment of an Ombudsman to investigate complaints against Stormont government departments.

* Wednesday 23 April 1969
The Unionist Parliamentary Party voted by 28 to 22 to introduce universal adult suffrage in local government elections in Northern Ireland. The demand for 'one man, one vote' had been one of the most powerful slogans of the civil rights movement. James Chichester-Clarke, then Minister of Agriculture, resigned in protest at the reform.

etc

He was instrumental in bringing Sinn Fein into talks with Irish government, Brits, and then Unionists. Paving the way for the Good Friday Agreement etc.

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well I suppose Offical Ireland will protray him as a peace maker, moderate etc beyond doubt. Not much time for him myself. Like the SDLP itself, he was just all declarations, aspirations, hopes and dreams etc. Very little substance. He would have been pushed aside by the political pitbulls when it came to dealing with unionism - Sinn Fein.

Can't really agree with that outline. The man was knee deep in politics, not to mind other stuff like the Credit Unions and Derry Housing Association. The SDLP was in princple non-violent and non-sectarian. Not a bad example for others in Northern Ireland? In politics he worked hard on the ground in Derry, and else in Westminister and Brussels to towards economic prosperity, peace, and in the longer term a united Ireland. One tangible example of being a legislator is his 1977 challenge to the "Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act (Northern Ireland) 1922".

In a sense he also sacrificed his own career, and his party dominant position by bringing Sinn Fein and the IRA into the Peace Process. Since then Sinn Fein and the DUP have overtaken the centre ground parties, effectively by appearing more hardline in their negotiating positions. But perhaps Northern Ireland problems can only be resolved by allowing the two extremes (Sinn Fein/DUP) find a solution - instead of just criticizing from the sidelines.

Morlar

donaghs wrote: »

A few ideas here...

He helped found the Credit Union movement in Northern Ireland. A very tangible benefit in a place with real deprivation like Derry.

He was involved in the Civil Rights movement which helped achieve the following:

* Friday 8 November 1968
Londonderry Corporation agreed to a Nationalist request to introduce a points system in the allocation of public sector housing.

* Friday 22 November 1968
Terence O'Neill, then Northern Ireland Prime Minister, announced a package of reform measures which had resulted from meetings in London with Harold Wilson, then British Prime Minister, and James Callaghan, then British Home Secretary. The five point reform plan included:

a nine member 'Development Commission' to take over the powers of the Londonderry Corporation;
an ombudsman to investigate complaints against government departments;
the allocation of houses by local authorities to be based on need;
the Special Powers Act to be abolished as it was safe to do so; and
some reform of the local government franchise (the end of the company votes).

* Tuesday 11 March 1969
The Parliamentary Commissioner Bill was introduced which would allow for the appointment of an Ombudsman to investigate complaints against Stormont government departments.

* Wednesday 23 April 1969
The Unionist Parliamentary Party voted by 28 to 22 to introduce universal adult suffrage in local government elections in Northern Ireland. The demand for 'one man, one vote' had been one of the most powerful slogans of the civil rights movement. James Chichester-Clarke, then Minister of Agriculture, resigned in protest at the reform.

None of those altered the course of events which led to the battle of the bogside. If you are asserting that the above are the proof that violence was never necessary during the troubles I'd remain unconvinced.

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

None of those altered the course of events which led to the battle of the bogside. If you are asserting that the above are the proof that violence was never necessary during the troubles I'd remain unconvinced.

I agree. It was the violent reception and banning of the civil rights marches that was one of the grave errors in the 1960s civil rights movement in NI. When William Craig, the minister for Home Affairs, banned the Derry march on 5 oct 1968 it was the death-knell of any hope for a peaceful resolution to the mess that NI was. The perception was that Orange marches could go ahead but civil rights marches were to be banned and this outraged many in the Catholic community who just saw business as usual from the government.

The unarmed civil rights marchers in Derry were then met with the violence from the RUC and sundry UVF thugs who showed up to use force and what, show their determination that nothing was going to change in NI. And this was expressed with violence. The violence was blared onto TV screens world wide and it was an embarrassed O'Neill who was forced to take some action and give in on some reforms. But his policies did not at all have any backing from the majority in NI and at one point O'Neill was pelted with eggs and flour in public.


The issue of one man one vote - central to the civil rights marches - was not included in these reforms - adding further frustration to the mix. More importantly the RUC were visibly beating the s*it out of the march supporters and Ian Paisley was on television every night with his nightly rants against granting Catholics any rights in NI. To observers at the time Paisley had become the effective leader of NI and seemed never to be off the screen with his threats and anti-Catholic vitriolic screeds. The resistance to the civil rights movement was implacable and seen as such in a very visible way.

I lived through this period and remember it all quite well as it unfolded onto our TV screens in the south- and to me the tragedy of the civil rights movement was the failure of government to respond and put the men of violence - the RUC, the UVF and even members of the NI government who were egging it all on - in jail, that led on to further tragedy. O'Neill was run out of office for his apparently 'giving in' to the civil rights demands.

But the point is the violence BEGAN with the UVF and the RUC attacking unarmed marchers and raiding whole neighbourhoods with violent 'searches' - an excuse used to intimidate the Catholic community with violence. The limited response of British and NI government to the civil rights movement was a mistake that led on to 30 years of tragedy.

I suppose I should add that when you live through events like this - and witness them at close range - it's not the same as reading about them later. The utter tragedy of these marchers who hoped that the constitutional way would give them equal civic recognition and status and to watch as the whole thing degenerated into violence - apparently supported by the state - is beyond me to ever understand.

donaghs

I was talking about tangible positive things he had done. I can see how violence was needed at certain times for self-defence, e.g. the 1970s Battle of St Matthew's in Short Strand. Which could have resulted in a Bombay St burning/exodus of Catholics had the PIRA not intervened.

However, I still favour John Hume approach to that of the IRA. Violence is rarely justifiable.

MarchDub

donaghs wrote: »

However, I still favour John Hume approach to that of the IRA. Violence is rarely justifiable.

I'm certainly not trying to justify anything, especially violence - just put on record the sequence of events and what led to 30 years of chaos.

The impression I sometimes get from these discussions is that somehow the violence on the Catholic side was a reasoned choice that arose out of a calm atmosphere that was open to the demands of the Civil Rights movement for equality under the law - it didn't happen that way.

Unfortunately and tragically, the civil rights movement never stood a chance at remaining non-violent. From the very beginning UVF thugs were out in numbers looking to cause trouble for the marchers and blatantly using violence to make their point.

Denerick

That would be a reasonable thing to say if the PIRA resorted to defending local communities as they did during the pogroms during the war of independence. However they fought an idealogical war aimed at severing the British link - which leads me to conclude that they exploited the wretchedness of the Catholic conditions for their own ends.

MarchDub

Severing the link was always on the table - it was part of the narrative that surrounded all issues in NI. Remember there were still living memories at that time of the border being established. Paisley was chanting about it from the get go - or should I say, saying that hell would freeze over first etc etc. so it wasn't a huge leap by any means to take by anyone to take a position on the subject or take the issue in that direction. In fact in 1966 when the UVF revamped it was for the purpose of not allowing the border to disappear. And this was some years before the PIRA formed.

I hate violence - so the tragedy for me was to see the entire situation descend into a volcanic mess. I can still remember seeing on the evening news the early victims of all this sprawled on pavements. It was unreal to us at the time.

Morlar

Denerick wrote: »

........they fought an idealogical war aimed at severing the British link - which leads me to conclude that they exploited the wretchedness of the Catholic conditions for their own ends.

Their response might be something along the lines of pointing out that the 'wretchedness of Catholic conditions' were caused by that british link which they sought to forcibly break.

I have a lot of respect for J.H. even bumped into him several times in the vicinity of Dublin castle circa 1995 but I believe that if it werent for the response of the IRA then the likes of hume would happily have been left to piss into the wind till the end of time. Take the IRA out of that equation and you deflate the sdlp positioning of themselves as the 'constitutional alternative to the physical force republicanism'. As an example their pre resurgence track record is not particularly impressive to me (all talk of credit unions & 'comission to hold an election to appoint someone to file complaints with' aside).

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

Their response might be something along the lines of pointing out that the 'wretchedness of Catholic conditions' were caused by that british link which they sought to forcibly break.

I have a lot of respect for J.H. even bumped into him several times in the vicinity of Dublin castle circa 1995 but I believe that if it werent for the response of the IRA then the likes of hume would happily have been left to piss into the wind till the end of time. Take the IRA out of that equation and you deflate the sdlp positioning of themselves as the 'constitutional alternative to the physical force republicanism'. As an example their pre resurgence track record is not particularly impressive to me (all talk of credit unions & 'comission to hold an election to appoint someone to file complaints with' aside).

Agree. That's exactly the point I was making too in my long post - there was not much response by government to the civil rights marches. And the situation became seriously volatile with the banning of marches [great idea that was!] and the unchecked attacks by the RUC and UVF on unarmed marchers.

KeithAFC

A lot better than Gerry Adams that is for sure. John Hume is a good man.

ValJester

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well I suppose Offical Ireland will protray him as a peace maker, moderate etc beyond doubt. Not much time for him myself. Like the SDLP itself, he was just all declarations, aspirations, hopes and dreams etc. Very little substance. He would have been pushed aside by the political pitbulls when it came to dealing with unionism - Sinn Fein.

And Hume had no importance in making the outside world aware that it was the general public who suffered above all else in this?He was a man of peace and principle in a nation of extremism, and for that he has my unending admiration.