should we lie to children

julies boy

this is a topical subject
what should we do with santa/toothfary should we tell the truth or not and why do we lie to our kids , is it healthy,dose it help their imagations etc????

The Hill Billy

Not relevant to Dublin City.
Moved to Parenting.

HB

CrazyRabbit

Hill Billy wrote: »

Not relevant to Dublin City.
Moved to Parenting.

HB

What happened to all the parents and kids in Dublin City? Are they ok?

To answer the question, I don't see the harm in maintaining the illusion of Santa/Tooth Fairy etc for a few years. It's one of the things that makes childhood special...the fact that we can believe in something magical.

Nevyn

Yes and about many things.

It is our job as parents to protect our children from many harsh realities of the world until they are mentally and emotionally able to deal with them. We are tasked with giving them a happy childhood so that they will mature into functioning adults later in life.

How Strange

As a child I loved Christmas, Santa, the excitement of the buildup, making many lists, being dick with nerves, getting up at 3am some christmas mornings much to the frustration of my parents who just got into bed.

It's what I loved about bring an older sister and aunt when I saw how excited kids got.

As a soon to be parent I can't wait to
have that excitement in our house. It's one of the thing I look forward to most.

IMO the world is bleak and grim enough without taking that little bit of magic from kids lives. They grow up quickly enough already without making them grow up any faster.

metrovelvet

It depends on the lie. Lying about what really happened to the pony at the stable is one thing.

Lying about the identity of a parent is another.

Lying by putting peas in the mashed potatoes and the child discovers the peas- he will never trust you at dinner again and all your meals will be suspect.

byhookorbycrook

metrovelvet wrote: »

It depends on the lie. Lying about what really happened to the pony at the stable is one thing.

You mean Bracken didn't really go to live on a farm where the grass was knee high???;)

metrovelvet

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You mean Bracken didn't really go to live on a farm where the grass was knee high???;)

Yes yes he did. He must have gone to live with Spot,who was purchased by a little girl for her birthday and she lives on a big big farm where Spot is very happy. Its so nice to know he has the company of another child loving pony.

silverharp

We try to be pretty honest with ours if it's about anything important. Depending on what we are talking about we may simplfy the facts somewhat, for instance if he asked about where he comes from , he certainly wont get the "stork brought him" from us at the same time he doesnt need a Leaving Cert science lecture. However the last thing I'd want is a kid who is detached from reality so we would be honest about issues like death etc. and wouldnt be inclined to make up stuff just to make them feel better.

On the other hand if he asks why he cant find a sponge bob episode he thought was recorded I'm not going to drop myself in it

metrovelvet

I hid my sons blocks in the closet because I got sick of them all over the floor with the trains and the lego and the endless amount of stuff and he asked me where they were.

I told him I didnt know.

He said "oh, but I think you do mommy."

Klingon Hamlet

I see a subtle but important difference between lying, and creating a happy illusion. Christmas and tooth fairy etc are all part of growing up. Yes there are parents who see it as nothing short of mass captialisation of old-school myths but I think once it's kept magical, and there's no sense of excess or loss of novelty, then it can really bring a feeling of wonder and excitement that otherwise may be a little lacking normally.

I just wonder how my child will react when I admit Santa isnt real! I'm sure I'll be forgiven:D

lynski

i think we discussed this last year in the atheist forum.
As we have 2 under 4 and one on the way, it is a big question in our house. My childhood memories of christmas were a lot less commercial and more realistic. i don't know any child that honestly believes they might get coal, do you? we did and we knew that mom and dad had to pay for the toys, some how, not sure how but they did.
my son knows that fairies, mpnsters, bob and thomas are not real and that movies and cartoons are not real and if he asks me straight out i will tell him that santa is a story and part of christmas. i wont be going to lapland and wont be make footprints in the snow or anything like that.
I think you can enjoy the time and the atmosphere without building a fantasy.

metrovelvet

lynski wrote: »

i think we discussed this last year in the atheist forum.
As we have 2 under 4 and one on the way, it is a big question in our house. My childhood memories of christmas were a lot less commercial and more realistic. i don't know any child that honestly believes they might get coal, do you? we did and we knew that mom and dad had to pay for the toys, some how, not sure how but they did.
my son knows that fairies, monsters, bob and thomas are not real and that movies and cartoons are not real and if he asks me straight out i will tell him that santa is a story and part of christmas. i wont be going to lapland and wont be make footprints in the snow or anything like that.
I think you can enjoy the time and the atmosphere without building a fantasy.

I really did believe there were monsters. If I told you that, and you told me there was no such thing, I would have thought you were an idiot and been very sad that you were not taking me seriously.

My mother tried to convince me there were no monsters. But she could not stop my imagination. I begged for nightlights. I had childhood insomnia from as early as I can remember, staring in the dark, imagining the jumper on the chair was x, the towel was Y, the shoes were something else. She refused to get me a nightlight. I think she thought I was being difficult and that buying me a nightlight would somehow verify that there were such a thing as monsters. So, no nightlight. Just hours and hours of staring into the dark. I'd wake up for school exhausted, often late, fatigued and anxious and of course my mother would be furious that I was late, so I'd often leave the house in tears too. So I went into school tired and upset. For a long time.

The whole thing would have been a lot easier if she just believed me about the monsters and got me a nightlight.

I cant remember what age I was when I stopped believing in monsters, but the insomnia didn't really ever go away. And you know what, I still need a light on in the hall or bathroom.

up for anything

Ha! My boys still believe that vertically challenged people still crouch in ticket machines pushing out and pulling in the tickets. I used the press the help button when they were younger to talk to the man in the box.

They don't believe in God because he's a bit far-fetched but they believe in Santa.

dr ro

well santa is based on a real historical character. God is more of an hysterical creation.

thebullkf

dr ro wrote: »

well santa is based on a real historical character. God is more of an hysterical creation.

ffs.:rolleyes:

thebullkf

metrovelvet wrote: »

I really did believe there were monsters. If I told you that, and you told me there was no such thing, I would have thought you were an idiot and been very sad that you were not taking me seriously.

My mother tried to convince me there were no monsters. But she could not stop my imagination. I begged for nightlights. I had childhood insomnia from as early as I can remember, staring in the dark, imagining the jumper on the chair was x, the towel was Y, the shoes were something else. She refused to get me a nightlight. I think she thought I was being difficult and that buying me a nightlight would somehow verify that there were such a thing as monsters. So, no nightlight. Just hours and hours of staring into the dark. I'd wake up for school exhausted, often late, fatigued and anxious and of course my mother would be furious that I was late, so I'd often leave the house in tears too. So I went into school tired and upset. For a long time.

The whole thing would have been a lot easier if she just believed me about the monsters and got me a nightlight.

I cant remember what age I was when I stopped believing in monsters, but the insomnia didn't really ever go away. And you know what, I still need a light on in the hall or bathroom.

should be post of the day .

a more bare,brutal and insightful post i've not read on boards.


Touché metrovelvet.


I tip my hat to you.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

The whole thing would have been a lot easier if she just believed me about the monsters and got me a nightlight.

You poor thing, why wouldn't she just get you a bloody nightlight?!

Nevyn

We had monsters under the bed in this house, I used to stand on the landing and tell the monsters to get out before we came into the room or I would tell thier mother's on them and they would be in trouble. Worked really well until we had 'bold' monsters under the bed and they were then treathened with the hockey stick. Soon the house was a monster no go zone and that was the end of that.

we'llallhavetea_old

i definitely believed in monsters as a kid! i use to take a running jump from my bedroom door to my bed for fear of one grabbing me by the ankles
i also thought that the posters on my wall came alive at night time and would lie there pasted to the bed with sweat, watching them walk around.

anyway, my daughter has just had her first visit from the tooth fairy this week, she left her a wee note on a scroll and money in a little pouch. she was delighted!
i have no problem with santy / tooth fairy, they are some of my favourite childhood memories and i'm so grateful to my parents for the effort they put into making those events extra special

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You poor thing, why wouldn't she just get you a bloody nightlight?!

I think she thought it would have validated my fears. She does the same thing to my son. Tells him there are no monsters.

Ridiculous. My son and I do investigations of under the bed and the closets and he gets a hall light on too. He also has a tiger mask he can put on to scare the monsters away.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

We had monsters under the bed in this house, I used to stand on the landing and tell the monsters to get out before we came into the room or I would tell thier mother's on them and they would be in trouble. Worked really well until we had 'bold' monsters under the bed and they were then treathened with the hockey stick. Soon the house was a monster no go zone and that was the end of that.

I like it. Good idea.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think she thought it would have validated my fears. She does the same thing to my son. Tells him there are no monsters.

Ridiculous. My son and I do investigations of under the bed and the closets and he gets a hall light on too. He also has a tiger mask he can put on to scare the monsters away.

That's crazy logic, isn't it. I like the idea of the mask, we're definitely from the go-with-the-flow school of parenting; we have a hall light on and if they get really scared, they just come in with us.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's crazy logic, isn't it. I like the idea of the mask, we're definitely from the go-with-the-flow school of parenting; we have a hall light on and if they get really scared, they just come in with us.

Well it's actually pretty logical in that giving into me would have verified some truth in the existence of monsters, right? So the logic works but adult logic is not always an appropriate response to children. They have their own logic and I am sure we exasperate them with our stupidity. Nowhere is this better illustrated than "The Little Prince."

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, maybe, I was doing what I do when my kids come to me with an issue and trying to put myself back into my childhood ickle shoes and thinking that having a light on would surely prove there were no monsters while having no light just highlighted the possibility...

I hadn't heard of that book, thanks for that. :cool:

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yeah, maybe, I was doing what I do when my kids come to me with an issue and trying to put myself back into my childhood ickle shoes and thinking that having a light on would surely prove there were no monsters while having no light just highlighted the possibility...

I hadn't heard of that book, thanks for that. :cool:

I agree, that makes a better kind of sense than simply repeating over and over 'there are no monsters.' I just thought she was stupid after that. Last time I was going to eat my dinner for her.

Especially for my son where monsters dont exist as seperate entities under beds and in closets. "The dark is the monster mommy.'

Quackles

Some of my happiest childhood memories are waiting for Santa, sitting down as a family writing the letter... I wouldn't deny my kids that opportunity. Plus, I'm constantly sugar coating the world for them. I don't think they're ready for harsh realities just yet

cynder

I never believed in Santa form my earliest memory Santa was not real. I feel left out that i never let believe in him. I dont know what its like to believe in something magical.


we did however search the house for pressies and tell the other kids they were stupid for believing in Santa. How mean!!!

pickarooney

metrovelvet wrote: »

Especially for my son where monsters dont exist as seperate entities under beds and in closets. "The dark is the monster mommy.'

He's been watching Lost I see

We're at a bit of a stalemate over whether to tell our kids about Santa (the tooth fairy is a tooth mouse here, but I think both traditions are kind of stupid).
I think we'll not actively tell him about Santa Claus but if he picks up on it from friends we'll not come straight out and tell him he doesn't exist.I suppose this year will be the one where he's likely to be aware of the possibility of Father Christmas for the first time.

We're very much a non-religious family, but Jesus and Christ get invoked often enough that he's asked who these mysterious figures are.

Ickle Magoo

We're very similar and it's not us that they get the whole santa thing from, it's other people. I didn't ever really believe in santa and I LOVE christmas so I don't think it takes anything away - apart from the embarrassment of realising you've been thanking an imaginary character for all your parents hard work. We kind of keep mentioning of santa to a minimum and just smile and nod along with anything they say about it - which makes us complicit liars, I suppose.

We do the same as my parents did and give a token gift from santa - like a chocolate bar or magazine - and everything else comes from people they know exist.

metrovelvet

I have a question about fictions. WHen you guys watch or read something like the SNowman or Gruffalo or any other story where gross personification is used, do you explain that that is not real? How far do you go in dispelling make believe?

Ickle Magoo

It's not that I go about dispelling make believe, in terms of imaginative literature or play - I'm just not that fussed about actually creating people and making a concerted effort to make the kids believe they have an important role in their lives...

lynski

we engage in full imaginative play, with a full cast of characters including what he sees on tv in books etc, but he understands that it is make believe.
He watched coraline last week and asked me if what was in movies was real and i asked him what did he think and he said no and i told him he was exactly right.
We regularly go to the local bridge over the river to look for the troll that lives there, he fully enjoys it but knows there is no troll.
children are capable of a lot more then we give them credit for sometimes

Chuchoter

I disagree with instilling religion into children and I think children should be taught to be critical thinkers, but God childhood simply wouldn't have been the same without santa and the toothfairy, no other time in your life you can believe in that

metrovelvet

The things I used to believe... rainbows.. pots of gold... wishes on stars... you'd make it up and I'd believe it... Santa made me suspicious though. I think I saw too many of him all over NYC to not think something was amiss.

Deliverance

julies boy wrote: »

this is a topical subject
what should we do with santa/toothfary should we tell the truth or not and why do we lie to our kids , is it healthy,dose it help their imagations etc????

We lie to children all the time as much as we lie to ourselves to just get by in a society that is potentially built on stories. These stories are all based on an imagination that we all possess and use for our own benefit as a society that is fragile at best in my opinion.

The bible is the 'greatest story ever told', a 'fairytale' that is believed by adults as an extreme example of the power of the story.

every now and then an author comes along with a stronger more popular view that makes us think. 'Lord of the Flies' in this instance is poignant and worth a read as is 'Moby Dick'.

Stories are the standpoint of creativity and critical thinking for the general populace, children and adults alike. The more one reads and learns the more one has a better understanding of the placement that we have as contributors and thinkers in today's complex society.

Can you call a story a lie as much as you can call a lie a story?

It all depends on how you 'realise' the lie / story in the first place as a real person / thinker.

Look up nietzsche

metrovelvet

Deliverance wrote: »

We lie to children all the time as much as we lie to ourselves to just get by in a society that is potentially built on stories. These stories are all based on an imagination that we all possess and use for our own benefit as a society that is fragile at best in my opinion.

The bible is the 'greatest story ever told', a 'fairytale' that is believed by adults as an extreme example of the power of the story.

every now and then an author comes along with a stronger more popular view that makes us think. 'Lord of the Flies' in this instance is poignant and worth a read as is 'Moby Dick'.

Stories are the standpoint of creativity and critical thinking for the general populace, children and adults alike. The more one reads and learns the more one has a better understanding of the placement that we have as contributors and thinkers in today's complex society.

Can you call a story a lie as much as you can call a lie a story?

It all depends on how you 'realise' the lie / story in the first place as a real person / thinker.

Look up nietzsche

People lie all the time. That is if you believe in truth in the first place. Artists such as Picasso would talk about distortion to tell the truth, and Oscar Wilde has some interesting things to say about lying in order to tell the truth.

I lie every time I put mascara on.

Here is a very interesting article about deceit from the NY Science times. Sorry I don't know how to do that block highlighted text thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

I found this sentence particularly interesting:

Our lie blindness suggests to some researchers a human desire to be deceived, a preference for the stylishly accoutred fable over the naked truth.

cbyrd

My dad putting the talc on the fireplace,... tying the string to the fire screen and then to the companion set to see if we could catch santy in the act.. 4 of us running down the stairs in the dark and WOW the screen is on the floor and there's a giant footprint on the fireplace :eek: HOLY MOLY SANTY'S FOOTPRINT :eek: running up the 2 flights of stairs to tell mammy and daddy that we have santy's footprint and he wrecked the room.. come down and look... not understanding why they were so tired.. i mean it was only about half 5.. the first roller skates i got, the doll house, they pure joy when i got a wendy house, an escape from my brothers... the disappointment i felt the christmas when i was 12 knowing but not wanting to believe that he wasn't real.. then understanding the magic my parents created and how much they thought of us to get what we wanted and not take the glory...

the time i thought the tooth fairy forgot.. but when i came home from school and was told to check under the pillow properly and found my 20p in the pillow case oh the relief...

Now i'm the parent and i love not getting the glory.. i love creating the magic, and i love the yelling and shouting at half 5 on christmas morning SANTY CAME AND WE CAUGHT HIS FOOTPRINT... there's no lie in it... just like trees don't grow in my sitting room but it's still there :rolleyes:

I dont' know how much longer i'll have my dad, he's sick, but i'll always have the magic he created for me and my brothers, and when we understood we we're drafted in to help create the magic for the younger ones.. and i do remember one year we left a turnip outside the door with one of my older brothers name on it for the laugh.. it still makes us laugh..
just my take on it...;)

Deliverance

cbyrd wrote: »

My dad putting the talc on the fireplace,... tying the string to the fire screen and then to the companion set to see if we could catch santy in the act.. 4 of us running down the stairs in the dark and WOW the screen is on the floor and there's a giant footprint on the fireplace :eek: HOLY MOLY SANTY'S FOOTPRINT :eek: running up the 2 flights of stairs to tell mammy and daddy that we have santy's footprint and he wrecked the room.. come down and look... not understanding why they were so tired.. i mean it was only about half 5.. the first roller skates i got, the doll house, they pure joy when i got a wendy house, an escape from my brothers... the disappointment i felt the christmas when i was 12 knowing but not wanting to believe that he wasn't real.. then understanding the magic my parents created and how much they thought of us to get what we wanted and not take the glory...

the time i thought the tooth fairy forgot.. but when i came home from school and was told to check under the pillow properly and found my 20p in the pillow case oh the relief...

Now i'm the parent and i love not getting the glory.. i love creating the magic, and i love the yelling and shouting at half 5 on christmas morning SANTY CAME AND WE CAUGHT HIS FOOTPRINT... there's no lie in it... just like trees don't grow in my sitting room but it's still there :rolleyes:

I dont' know how much longer i'll have my dad, he's sick, but i'll always have the magic he created for me and my brothers, and when we understood we we're drafted in to help create the magic for the younger ones.. and i do remember one year we left a turnip outside the door with one of my older brothers name on it for the laugh.. it still makes us laugh..
just my take on it...;)

That is what it is all about really. I figured out the Santa 'lie' v.early as a kid with one eye open all night (saw the parents doing the deed all excited and tripping over themselves planting the pressies trying not to wake us up) They looke so excited.

I kept up the pretence of belief for the parents sake. I didn't have the heart to spoil the magic for them;)

Deliverance

metrovelvet wrote: »

Our lie blindness suggests to some researchers a human desire to be deceived, a preference for the stylishly accoutred fable over the naked truth.

I like the sentence: 'Art is a lie that tells the truth'. I don't know who said that, but once I heard it, it stuck with me as something that describes the beauty that lies within a 'lie'.

metrovelvet

Deliverance wrote: »

I like the sentence: 'Art is a lie that tells the truth'. I don't know who said that, but once I heard it, it stuck with me as something that describes the beauty that lies within a 'lie'.

Not very fashionable anymore Im afraid. Truth is very modernist notion that is sort of frowned upon in more sophisticated circles, as it is now seen to be unstable and constructed itself and anything which is constructed is artificial.

BostonB

I guess it depends entirely on the situation. Somethings are fun and exciting. But sometimes lies can catch you out, and sometimes they are not helpful.

Deliverance

metrovelvet wrote: »

Not very fashionable anymore Im afraid. Truth is very modernist notion that is sort of frowned upon in more sophisticated circles, as it is now seen to be unstable and constructed itself and anything which is constructed is artificial.

That is true;)