Loss of Office payments.

hinault

Even in the midst of the Great Recession, our beloved government was handing out cash like confetti at a wedding according to todays Independent



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sacked-ministers-get-euro25000-to-soften-blow-2352838.html
SEVEN junior ministers sacked last year by Taoiseach Brian Cowen to save money were handed "golden parachutes" of about €25,000 each to soften the blow, with more payments due this year.
New figures released last night also showed former Ceann Comhairle John O’Donoghue, who quit last year amid uproar over his expenses, walked away with €18,481 in the first instalment of a “golden parachute” – and he is due more cash.
The payment details come as the Government is preparing what is widely expected to be the toughest Budget in the history of the State, amid widespread dissatisfaction among workers about pay cuts and reduced pension benefits.

And the 2009 Finance Accounts reveal former attorney general Peter Sutherland, who yesterday said wages, costs and pensions were too high here and called on the Government to make “hard decisions”, was handed a state pension payment of €52,000 last year.

The December 7 Budget is expected to lead to higher taxes and reduced public services, and follows two years of tax rises, spending cuts and increasing unemployment.
In April 2009, Mr Cowen asked all 20 junior ministers to resign and re-appointed 15 the following month, abolishing five positions to bring the cost of government down.
However, Mr Cowen also sacked two other ministers and replaced them with backbenchers.

At the time, junior ministers were paid €54,000 in addition to the basic TD’s salary of €100,000. They received severance packages on a sliding scale based on their length of service.
Noel Ahern, Mary Wallace, Sean Power, John McGuinnness, Michael Kitt and Maire Hoctor, took home €25,277 each and Jimmy Devins received €25,273, giving a total of €176,935.

According to information provided by the Department of Finance, those who were sacked received 75pc of their previous monthly salary for their first six months on the backbenches.
For the next year, until this October, they receive half of their monthly ministerial salary (around €27,000) before falling back to 25pc of the monthly salary (€6,750) for the next six months.

Payments

Accounts published last night by the Department of Finance also showed pension payments made last year to former office holders including: former Taoisigh John Bruton (€100,027); Garret FitzGerald (€103,926); Albert Reynolds (€109,358); and Bertie Ahern (€98,901).

Mr Ahern, a sitting TD, earlier this year said he would forgo his pension while he was still serving in the Dail. Anglo Irish Bank chairman Alan Dukes, a former Fine Gael minister, received a pension of €45,470 in 2009.
A former Attorney General, ex-AIB chairman Dermot Gleeson, who stepped down from his position in the bank last year, received a pension payment of €50,899.

Mr Gleeson was a central figure in the banking crisis, and was one of the senior bankers who went to meet Finance Minister Brian Lenihan and Taoiseach Brian Cowen on the night of the bank guarantee, September 29, 2008.

He was also famously egged at a meeting of AIB shareholders last year. The Finance Accounts details will spark anger among taxpayers as Mr Lenihan prepares to cut more than €3bn in the upcoming Budget. PRSI, the health levy and income levies are likely to be rolled into a new increased single ‘social contribution’ payment.
While all these levies are already in place, the Government is expected to apply them to more taxpayers and at lower income levels.

It is also believed that controversial items from Colm McCarthy’s An Bord Snip Nua report may have to be revived. The Finance Accounts for 2009 also showed that Comptroller and Auditor General John Buckley was paid €252,876, but took a pay cut of €27,323, and Chief Justice John L Murray was paid €304,947. Mr Murray also got a pension of €72,983 from his time as Attorney General

murphaph

That's really made my blood boil. Email sent to FF TD to ask their opinion on it and to give mine.

These guys exist on a different plane to us mere mortals who pay for it. I strongly suggest you all contact your TDs and demand that these payments are stopped. They should be leading by example, the budget will of necessity be very tough.

hinault

murphaph wrote: »

That's really made my blood boil. Email sent to FF TD to ask their opinion on it and to give mine.

These guys exist on a different plane to us mere mortals who pay for it. I strongly suggest you all contact your TDs and demand that these payments are stopped. They should be leading by example, the budget will of necessity be very tough.

Good suggestion.

I've just emailed Maire Hoctor TD (she's the local TD in the neighbouring constituency).

If and when I receive an answer I will publish it here.

Paying off people for loss of office:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

pete_mcs

Have contacted Frank Fahey and Eamonn O Cuiv, thank your for the info. Urge every board member to contact their local TD's with this information. Enough is enough!

liammur

pete_mcs wrote: »

Have contacted Frank Fahey and Eamonn O Cuiv, thank your for the info. Urge every board member to contact their local TD's with this information. Enough is enough!

Whole system is a rotten joke. These guys don't even read their emails, they have personal assitants to do that, usually they just get deleted, unless it's a request for a toilet seat to be repaired which may lead to a vote.

hinault

I've emails and sent copies letters to my two local TD's.
Michael Lowry and Noel Coonan.

lets see what their reply is.

waitingforBB

out of interest do any of you care to share the mails you sent to your TD's?

murphaph

waitingforBB wrote: »

out of interest do any of you care to share the mails you sent to your TD's?

No problem...(my FF TD is the chief whip, John Curran).

Dear John,
May I ask you for your opinion on the following:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sacked-ministers-get-euro25000-to-soften-blow-2352838.html

Do you think this behaviour is appropriate at any time, let alone at a time when our nation is effectively bankrupt and only surviving day to day through borrowing 20bn a year??

You may think it's "only a few thousand" but for heaven's sake, lead by example. These payments should be stopped. Outrageous pensions of 100k (4 average salaries!!) to former Taoisigh who only served a few years should be stopped.

If FF can't cut this sh*t out then I'm voting for somebody else to see if they can. Sick and tired of reading this stuff. We're in a hole, we need to cut PS pay and SW and perhaps jack up taxes a bit but very hard to stomach this stuff when I'm reading of these former ministers etc. getting MY money for old rope. Can you prove to me it's not just one big gravy train John?

Your very sincerely,

To those who say we are wasting our time contacting them I believe you are incredibly misguided. The Irish people NEED to become MUCH more interested in politics and to contact their TDs about matters of national importance (not about fixing toilet seats!). If people don't ever contact their TDs they have no way of knowing what is p!ssing us off etc. They NEED to feel as though we are watching them and quite frankly the level of political apathism in Ireland is disgraceful...happy enough to moan to each other down the pub about TDs pay but not bothered enough to tell erm, our TDs how we feel.

Do people really think that 166 TDs in Leinster House can run the country how they like if 4 million people take an active interest in things and simply say "no, actually that isn't good enough". We make it clear that we will vote you out if you stand behind a policy such as "parachute payments" for sacked Junior Ministers. We let FG try to do better and we punish them if they don't. We continue to punish bad government until these politicians get it into their skulls that we expect better.

Countries with "clean" politics didn't arrive there overnight. It takes time.

waitingforBB

agree that people shouldnt view this as a waste of time. The politicians need to hear the anger on the ground.

Most people will moan and whinge to each other, then probably vote for the same part they voted for all their lives...

Inaction is a big problem with us as a society, acceptance and drudgery is a bigger problem

hinault

waitingforBB wrote: »

out of interest do any of you care to share the mails you sent to your TD's?

share the emails?
Are you implying that we didnt send the emails to our TD's?

Why would you insist on sharing same?
Bizzare.

waitingforBB

if you read my mail you will see that I didnt imply or 'insist' anything.
merely asked for my own interest if anyone was willing to share.

i think on mature reflection you will appreciate, it wasnt my mail that was 'bizzare'

hinault

waitingforBB wrote: »

if you read my mail you will see that I didnt imply or 'insist' anything.
merely asked for my own interest if anyone was willing to share.

i think on mature reflection you will appreciate, it wasnt my mail that was 'bizzare'

You did ask us to "share you emails".

I'll share my emails

i asked my local TD if he/she knew about the payments made to said demoted junior ministers and I asked them if they supported said payments.

WhodahWoodah

I still think that there should be a pre-requisite that if you're going to run for a TD seat, you should have to have some sort of education in Economics. After all, any TD could end up being Minister for Finance or even Taoiseach!

I'd love to see B-Cow's Leaving Cert Economics result - if he even sat it!!!!

Sikie

Any elected position in government has a finite time span maximum 5 years.

The higher positions have a premium salary which apply during the period of office. These step down payments are WRONG they are bred out of a mentality/culture of entitlement on top of entitlement.

It concerns me that that the current poltical leadership can not do the right thing and stop such payments that would begin to show they really can take "tough decisions" as they call them.

hinault

Sikie wrote: »

It concerns me that that the current poltical leadership can not do the right thing and stop such payments that would begin to show they really can take "tough decisions" as they call them.

They're more concerned with keeping power, rather than doing the right thing.

And this is what has got this country in to the situation it is now in.

Retention of power.
They will do anything to retain power and this includes paying off junior ministers.

Complete dereliction of leadership.

jmayo

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

I still think that there should be a pre-requisite that if you're going to run for a TD seat, you should have to have some sort of education in Economics. After all, any TD could end up being Minister for Finance or even Taoiseach!

I'd love to see B-Cow's Leaving Cert Economics result - if he even sat it!!!!

This has nothing to do with having an education in economics.
It has to do with decency, ethics, responsibility and accountability..


I am tired of this sh**e about politicans requiring a certain standard of formal education that has been doing the rounds on some of these threads of late.
It is elitism.

Many great very successful entrepreneurs, business people and many great political leaders had no background in economics, finance or indeed formal education.

We would not be in the mess we are in if our politicans, particularly those who have been power and from ff, had some form of ethics and morals that dictated they care about the use of public money rather than have a certain formal qualification.

Ethics, morals and honesty is not something you go to school nevermind college to learn.

They do not believe in accountability and see the public purse as something to be doled out to themselves and their cronies.
It's doesn't matter how much or what relevant education someone has if they have no regard for normal ethical behaviour.


willie o'dea could be considered one of the most educated members of the Dáil with both professional legal and financial quafications and with it probable membership of two professional bodies.
Yet he has been found to be a liar and a slanderer.
Point made.

WhodahWoodah

jmayo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with having an education in economics.
It has to do with decency, ethics, responsibility and accountability..


I am tired of this sh**e about politicans requiring a certain standard of formal education that has been doing the rounds on some of these threads of late.
It is elitism.

Many great very successful entrepreneurs, business people and many great political leaders had no background in economics, finance or indeed formal education.

We would not be in the mess we are in if our politicans, particularly those who have been power and from ff, had some form of ethics and morals that dictated they care about the use of public money rather than have a certain formal qualification.

Ethics, morals and honesty is not something you go to school nevermind college to learn.

They do not believe in accountability and see the public purse as something to be doled out to themselves and their cronies.
It's doesn't matter how much or what relevant education someone has if they have no regard for normal ethical behaviour.


willie o'dea could be considered one of the most educated members of the Dáil with both professional legal and financial quafications and with it probable membership of two professional bodies.
Yet he has been found to be a liar and a slanderer.
Point made.

Whatever else about ethics, I agree, we should be able to expect those as a matter of course. However, even if I was REALLY REALLY honest, upstanding, ethical, responsible and accountable nobody would elect me to head up a major internationally trading business unless I had the chops for it, and these days that means a combination of experience as well as education. Now I agree you have your Bill Cullen types who have made it with no qualifications, but these people worked their way up, built their own businesses and learned the hard way all about finance / business / economics. Brian Cowen didn't. Most politicians didn't. I wouldn't mind Bill Cullen or someone like him being a minister, but since people like him are so busy running their empires for millions of quid a year, one can only assume that's why we generally don't see them forming an orderly line to try to get elected. Too much politics required to actually get any work done.

NOT having the requirement of some sort of educational background hasn't worked out too well for us so far. And you can't seriously be saying that there's no benefit to education or why does anyone bother.

It's hardly elitist to expect someone who is making the economic decisions for the whole country to have some qualification to back it up. B-Cow certainly doesn't, and he doesn't have an impressively long business CV to show us where he learned the skills on the ground either.

A politician is no more or less likely to be crooked because they are or aren't educated. Corruption is a totally seperate issue to education. What we need is to get rid of the croneyism and have a more business-like government with behavioural standards, performance targets, rewards if those targets are met and consequences (including warnings and firings) if they're not.

Someone who wouldn't get a particular job in the private sector (eg CFO of a large business) shouldn't be eligible for it in government (eg Minister for Finance - essentially CFO of Ireland). Cowen is a solicitor by trade. Yet he was Min for Finance from 2004 to 2008 where he went just as nuts spending as everyone else, and now he's running the show! I don't expect my GP for legal advice, I don't ask my accountant for medical advice, and I certainly don't ask my solicitor for financial advice. IMO he wasn't qualified to have ever been in the job. And probably many after him won't either.

egan007

Are these not the same as redundancy payments?

murphaph

egan007 wrote: »

Are these not the same as redundancy payments?

No, they are more like getting a reduction in responsibility, the commensurate paycut and then getting paid a bit "just because".

These tossers are already doing very well out of us on 100k a year as a "normal" TD (PLUS EXPENSES).

hinault

I started this thread last Saturday and I mailed each of my local TD's.

Today, I received a reply from Noel Coonan TD, fair dues to him.
Hereis the reply.

Dear (my name)

Many thanks for your email and voicing your concerns to me. Please find attached Fine Gael's proposals on reform entitled New Politics which is the most ambitious programme for political reform since the 1930s. New Politics will restore people’s trust in the political process by delivering real, tangible change. You are rightly outraged at the way in which their country has been misgoverned. However, there is a danger that this anger, if not addressed through positive reform, will lead to increasing numbers of our citizens disengaging from the democratic process.

The New Politics is central to our party’s vision for the transformation of Ireland. Just as political failure lies at the heart of the current economic crisis, so we believe that the New Politics can play a vital role in returning our country to long-term growth and prosperity. Political reform is not an optional extra for Fine Gael - it is an essential part of our programme to build a New Republic in
Ireland.

(my name), if you forward me your contact number I would be happy ring you to discuss the matter further.

Thanking you.

Yours sincerely,

Noel Coonan T.D
Fine Gael, Tipperary North.



What can I say? At least my local TD took the time to reply to me.
Any views?

Head The Wall

Does the policy implicitly state they wil remove these payments?

hinault

Head The Wall wrote: »

Does the policy implicitly state they wil remove these payments?

This is the document that deputy Coonan attached to the reply that he sent to me.

I have yet to read the document.

http://www.finegael.org/upload/NewPolitics.pdf

At least he took the time to reply to me.
I'll read the document and take it from there.

ninty9er

All TDs are aware of these payments, they are statutory. They can't not be paid, in the same manner as statutory redundancy can't not be paid if there's cashflow.

Asking if they are aware of them is like asking a priest if he's aware of the Bible, completely pointless.

You can ask their opinion, but you'd be better off asking them to introduce a private member's motion to change the legislation.

Being a full time politician is one of the most unstable jobs on the planet, jobs with intrinsic instability attract what would otherwise be "ridiculous" payments. It's almost impossible for a TD to get a large loan or mortgage without another income source as their salary is deemed to exist only until the next election.

I don't agree with the scale of the payments, but I do think there should be some sort of payment.

Fairs Fair

Dermot Gleeson is back in the Law Library - looking for business as a Senior Counsel - feted by the legal profession having destroyed AIB and bullying Brian Lenihan into the bank guarantee.

johnnyskeleton

Fairs Fair wrote: »

Dermot Gleeson is back in the Law Library - looking for business as a Senior Counsel - feted by the legal profession having destroyed AIB and bullying Brian Lenihan into the bank guarantee.

1. Do you have a source?

2. What does this have to do with the thread (that is 2 months old)?