Irish Prisons

purplefox

With overcrowding in our prisons getting worse and the levels of experienced staff retiring in our prisons what do you suggest the resolution is.
The new development at Thornton Hall is going to be another 4 years at lease and human rights campaigners believe that large prisons are not the way forward.

FreudianSlippers

Large prisons are the way forward in this country IMO. If human rights campaigners are worried about prisoner rights, they need to visit Mountjoy men's prison and decide then if they're better off there or in a big new prison.

johnnyskeleton

Non custodial sentencing options are becoming popular.

IMO the Minister for Justice should have a word with the GNIB about detaining illegal immigrants in prisons/remand centres. A fairly high percentage of those detained have not committed a crime and are detained awaiting deportation. IMO a minimum security holding area would be better - hell, they could even convert some NAMA hotel with minimum security measures to detain people while awaiting deportation.

Fines imposed should be enforced firstly by distress and by imprisonment only in default of distress. This would include direct garnishing of the fine from someone's wages or social welfare. In fact, you could cut out the middle man and give a district court judge direct power to impose a garnishee order on someone's welfare payments, up to maximums depending on how much they receive.

Community service should be expanded, but this is a more long term goal because as we will see with the "work for the dole" scheme, the administration of this could cost more than the benefits gained from the work.

There will be a lot of calls for removal of prisoners rights, and while I don't subscribe to the chain em to the wall / feed em nothing but gruel school of thought, some savings may be made here. I can see a situation emerging where we pay Eastern European member states to take some prisoners off our hands - it will be described as a temporary measure but will turn into a big business for Eastern European countries. This will of course be a breach of their rights in that they will be imprisoned in a foreign country, but as far as the calls go to increase punishment by reducing cost, this seems to me to be the least violation of human rights available.

Or, we could do like the Isle of Mann and reintroduce caning. Mandatory caning is a breach of the ECHR's prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments, but if it was a voluntary option e.g. your choice of 3 months imprisonment or 10 lashings I would imagine there would be a fairly big take up. Again, on the one hand it is a clear breach of human rights, but on the other hand if it is voluntary as an alternative to prison it may be permissible. Allowing the victims to administer the caning would also appease a lot of the blood lust.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/graffiti-accused-could-be-caned-2209383.html

detective

The Irish prison system is in disarray and is not serving the needs of the public. It is the most rotten apple in the criminal justice system barrel of ours.

The Gardai are doing their job - criminals are being caught left, right and centre and being brought to court.

The Judges are doing their job in giving custodial sentences.

The newspapers are scare mongering about tightening bail laws. There is nothing wrong with them either. Bail is a natural human right based on the presumption of innocence.

The problem is not remission its a good incentive to behave whilst locked up.

The problem is early and temporary release. It is not the fault of prison staff or management. The problem is criminals getting out of jail in a matter of minutes when they receive sentences of less than nine months and doing half their sentence when they receive over nine months. The problem is the staff and prisoners putting up with a system that forces Cork prison to beg the Army barracks next door for extra mattresses on an ongoing basis.

Overcrowding doesn't exist because the Judges are locking too many people up because generally they deserve to go in. Overcrowding exists because there aren't enough prison spaces.

We badly need extra spaces in this country. We don't need to replace old cells for new ones. We need to supplement the old cells and add to them.

FreudianSlippers

We also need to decide whether we are going to attempt to rehabilitate prisoners or merely punish them.

Compare Mountjoy women and men's prisons.

Women are given the chance to get an education and do something with their lives, whereas the men are stuck in an antiquated jail with no chance to better their lives - in fact, I believe many come out a bigger criminal then when they went in.

johnnyskeleton

detective wrote: »

We badly need extra spaces in this country. We don't need to replace old cells for new ones. We need to supplement the old cells and add to them.

Indeed, and I would go further.

The gardai don't need more numbers, they need better equiment and more training to put more gardai into specialised units. The streets would be a lot safer if they made more dectectives for serious crimes, special branch, the national crime bureau yoke etc. But this costs money and people demand more gardai walking the streets visibly and more traffic control (both fine in themselves, but an underuse of garda time if you ask me). Then people complain about the gardai not doing enough as regards the gangs but sure how are they supposed to break organised criminal gangs if they spend most of their time walking around to make joe public feel safe? Are they supposed to do it in their spare time?

The DPP is a great area for government cuts (sure who cares if the lawyers get paid or not) but this has meant that the DPP has been prosecuting less serious crimes or dealing with them in the district court instead.

I don't know how people realistically expect convictions to arise from the financial chicanery of the last few years if we are not spending the money on it.

We also need more judges, it taking a year or more to get on for trial in many circuits, and the district court is more packed than ever.

AFAIK, Ireland has one of the highest per capita rates of imprisonment, but we are only average as regards rates of crime (serious crime at any rate). However, people don't seem to realise this.

Equally, a big song and dance is made about the money paid in legal aid, yet in yesterday's Irish times it stated that legal aid in NI is twice what it is in the south, and even accounting for ex paramilitaries, I doubt they have as much crime as here.

All things considered, we have increased our spend on criminal justice by a relatively small amount compared to other eu countries - http://books.google.ie/books?id=D9gghA1h3ooC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=northern+ireland+prosecutions+per+capita&source=bl&ots=sIGVoElTlq&sig=QJBpjN2xkt72htFJ8oQWR6Bq0W0&hl=en&ei=yWyfTPjfK4GRjAemi_CpDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
and we still manage to have a fairly high level of prosecution and imprisonment (except in certain areas such as white collar crime, corruption etc).

As regards prisons, one issue of concern is that the cost of imprisonment is relatively high compared to other EU countries. This is perhaps due to the lower amount of low maintenance open or low security prisons and a disproportionate level of maximum security prisons. It may also be due to public sector wages being higher, but that's an issue for another thread.

So the government could be criticised for not spending enough money on the criminal justice system during the bubble relative to other areas. Yet it seems to have been cut disproportionately to other areas. I suppose the voters of Ireland care more about their hospitals and schools than they do about crime, but yet they complain constantly about perceived failings in this grossly underfunded yet relatively good criminal justice system.

Instead they talk about how the gardai aren't doing their jobs (most of them are) how judges are detached from reality (they're more clued in than joe soap) the DPP isn't prosecuting enough (true, but he doesn't have the money) and the lawyers are creaming it (a particular gripe is that prosecution and legal aid fees not only decreased in real terms over the last 10 years, but they have also been cut disproportionately more than other public contracts in the last few years; to put this in perspective, the government is also throwing silly money at a few big firms who advise them as regards the guarantee, nationalisations, NAMA etc and other areas of civil law).

Of course, there is nothing we can do about it now - we simply cannot increase spending and there have to be pay cuts and job losses throughout the sector (despite Croke Park agreement). But it should be noted as a big failing of the government that instead of actually trying to deal with crime, they instead swelled the numbers of patrol gardai and passed new crazy laws that aren't even being used in order to paper over the cracks.

detective

i would agree with you johnnyskeleton. nothing annoys me more than to see glossy fresh new laws come in for no other reason than to please the electorate who with all due respect have no clue. the laws are fine the way the are for the most part if they were enforced.

just one point though in fairness to the government in this regard the cost of keeping an inmate has plummeted in recent years. as much as i hate public servant bashing it also ludicrous how the average prison officer in cork prison took 34 days sick leave in 2008!!! but having said this i worked on a garda unit where one member took 6 months off sick straight through. none of the other four members took any leave yet the units average sick days per year was 24 each so maybe i'm wronging the prison officers in this regard.

please government put more money into more prison spaces!!!

detective

OisinT wrote: »

We also need to decide whether we are going to attempt to rehabilitate prisoners or merely punish them.

Compare Mountjoy women and men's prisons.

Women are given the chance to get an education and do something with their lives, whereas the men are stuck in an antiquated jail with no chance to better their lives - in fact, I believe many come out a bigger criminal then when they went in.

the reason you cannot compare the dochas centre to mountjoy male prison is because the latter is overcrowded due to lack of spaces. if the government invest in more spaces then the rehabilitation will follow naturally over time. prison should be there to punish and rehabilitate.

i know this one guy who received a three and a half year prison term (no part of which was suspended) in the circuit criminal court. he went on the run for 6 months of it (incarcerated in a very low security prison due to lack of spaces) and kept his remission!!! I mean honestly if the public only knew some of what goes on.

johnnyskeleton

detective wrote: »

just one point though in fairness to the government in this regard the cost of keeping an inmate has plummeted in recent years. as much as i hate public servant bashing it also ludicrous how the average prison officer in cork prison took 34 days sick leave in 2008!!! but having said this i worked on a garda unit where one member took 6 months off sick straight through. none of the other four members took any leave yet the units average sick days per year was 24 each so maybe i'm wronging the prison officers in this regard.

While it has fallen quite dramatically, it is still significantly higher than other countries. I think in the UK it's something like €40k per inmate per year, in Ireland it's closer to €75k.

Granted everything in Ireland costs more than in the UK due to credit bubble, but the UK gives us some idea of what we have to aspire to.

Again, I don't blame the prison services per se and I certainly don't blame the prison officers, but they were given too much money which was misallocated into higher salaries rather than into more prison spaces.

That is to say, they had an awful time trying to get Thornton Hall up and running and it is currently a very expensive empty field in North County Dublin. However, they had absolutely no trouble at all getting their shiny new office block in Longford. :pac:

Builderfromhell

Excrpt from the Irish Prison Service Annual Report 2009.

There was a considerable increase in the numbers committed for non-payment of a court ordered fine during 2009. This category increased by 91% on the 2008 figure - from 2,520 in 2008 to 4,806 in 2009. This follows on from an increase of 88.7% in 2008.

Kind of explains another reason why the prisons are so full.

Mark25

Just want to say my bit. Haven’t been in prison but came close enough.

For most people the thought of prison is bad enough and you would never want to go. Things can happen like they did to me – got done for assault causing harm, I think it was and for a while I thought I could be going to prison as I had a few public order convictions but I ended up getting community service (which I’m doing) instead of prison. My solicitor thought I would be OK but I was freaking out about it as it was going through court. I’m in Dublin so I was thinking about all the bad things I heard about Mountjoy.

From being in court a few times for this I know that not everybody would be as worried as I was. I am a regular guy, was at college, have an OK job and tried to be respectful to the court. But some of the lads there just didn’t care at all and seemed to know how to get out of bother. In loads of the cases I saw the solicitor would say that Johnny had a drug problem/drink problem/hard life and even with a lot of convictions they’d get a chance to sort themselves out. They probably ended up in prison eventually but to me it seemed like the decent people were getting a harder time than those lads.

But if I did get prison I know I would be messed up and definitely wouldn’t want to put up with the way I think things are in Mountjoy now. It must be bad in there and no matter what people shouldn’t have to piss in a pot, be in a cell with 4 or 5 lads or whatever and be thinking about getting cut or stuff like that. It shouldn’t be like that. But you should have to follow the rules if you are in there and not get out early anyway. That new place should definitely be built so they can close down Mountjoy and have better conditions.

At one stage I missed a court date and went to the Garda station to try and sort it out. Thought I was doing the right think like but got arrested for not turning up in court. The Garda was decent enough but it was too late for court so I was gonna be kept in over night. Ended up getting transferred over to the Bridewell – got handcuffed, put in the van and over to the Bridewell and got searched again and stuck in a horrible cell there with other lads and given a mattress for the night.

The smell in the place was rank and the toilet was full, 2 of the lads were high as kites and kept on asking me for smokes and going on about who they knew inside and going back in. They were going on like it was just normal for them. The other lads were sound though – just those 2 annoyed me. I didn’t really get any kip at all and when they opened the cell in the morning and we got something to eat it felt like being an animal locked in a cage. Then had to get cuffed again and put in the big van going up to the court. I remember thinking that the cells there were the best I had ever seen.

What I’m saying is that even for me whose been arrested a few times – mostly for minor drunken stuff – it made me realise how bad prison would be. Ever since then I’ve been pretty much off the drink as it gets me into trouble and I know I can’t risk it anymore.

Never been in custody going to court before and is was strange coming out into the box with the prison guards beside me. I felt rough and probably looked it and then I glanced over and saw my gf and my Mam because I had called them to tell them what happened and felt totally embarrassed about it. I got the thing sorted out anyway and didn’t mix up a court date since! First thing I did when I got home was have a bath!!

I’ve gone on but what I am saying is that fearing something works for me and maybe if people got a bit of a fright when they get into trouble at first it might work instead of waiting till they’ve done loads of stuff and aren’t too bothered about what happened them.

Just what I think. I just have to get on with my community service to make sure I don’t end up back in court.

Builderfromhell

Appreciate you sharing that Mark25.
It is interesting for me to read a story such as yours as it gives me an insight into the whole arrest experience.
Glad to see your getting by.
Drink has ruined many people.

Reloc8

Not going to quote your (excellent) post Mark. Just wanted to say thanks for making it, and good luck with it all.

Builderfromhell

Article from Sunday Business Post;
http://thesundaybusinesspost.com/news/early-release-crisis-as-870-prisoners-go-free-every-month-51116.html

Early release crisis as 870 prisoners go free every month
15 August 2010 By John Burke and Ian Kehoe

More than 870 convicted criminals are being given early release every month as a result of chronic overcrowding in Irish prisons.

The revolving-door nature of the country’s prisons is revealed in confidential briefing documents obtained by The Sunday Business Post.

According to the documents, the Irish Prison Service must now release seven prisoners on temporary release orders for every ten new inmates committed by the courts to Irish jails. This is because the state’s 14 places of detention are operating far beyond capacity.

The Irish Prison Service told this newspaper that it was using temporary release orders to cope with ‘‘serious overcrowding’’. This is despite the fact that temporary release was only ever designed as a means of allowing the early release of small numbers of suitable prisoners into the community.

The Irish Prison Service said that it could not say what proportion of offenders now being granted early release were guilty of specific categories of offences. This is because the prisons agency does not record this information.

The number of inmates committed to prison here has passed 5,000 in recent weeks. Irish jails have a combined capacity of 4,100.

Slightly more than 200 prisoners were released under temporary release orders on an average day in 2008.On an average day last month, that figure had risen to 780 prisoners on temporary release, according to the prison service.

Based on official committal rates of more than 1,250 inmates per month, the internal memo indicates that the Irish Prison Service is now being forced to release in excess of 870 inmates on temporary release orders per month solely to cope with the lack of spaces for the growing prison population.

The total number of such release orders granted between July 10 and August 10 last was 910 prisoners, or an average of 30 per day, the prison service said.

The increase in prisoner numbers is attributed to longer jail terms for drugs offences, increased road traffic crime detection and nonpayment of fines.

‘‘The numbers in custody are rising, which puts increasing pressure on the system. The net result of the expansion in prison committals has been a greater use of temporary release.

Currently, for every ten prisoners committed to prison, seven other prisoners must be released under ‘temporary release’," according to the documents, which were prepared by the Department of Finance.

The prison service has made a series of high-level proposals to the Department of Finance to achieve greater efficiencies in prison staffing levels, according to the document.

Temporary release orders are different from early release based on the statutory entitlement to 25 per cent remission for good behaviour, which led to the high-profile release last week of convicted rapist Larry Murphy.