Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP)

6679

I am currently after finishing college with a 2.1 in Computer Science and I am thinking of doing 'Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP)' though FAS.

I was pretty bad at programming at college but I do want to try my hand at it and I was wondering do you think its a good idea to do it seeing as I didnt enjoy programming during college?

Should I do it though FAS or should I do it with a school like Dorset College?

Civilian_Target

Get a book and learn the material. You're not required to program during the exam, it's just testing your knowledge of the Java API.

Lexor

If you were bad at the programming at college, then it would probably be best to identity the areas that you didn't do to well at and focus on them before proceeding to the SCJP. Maybe you might need a good beginners book on Java first of all, and then after a lot of practice, move onto the SCJP.

However, if your set on going for the SCJP, do as Civilian_Target said and get a good book and learn the material from that. The SCJP is more about java and it's related APIs. Also, FYI, UCD also do the SCJP course at a very cheap rate. For more details, check http://www.csi.ucd.ie/content/java-software-training-courses

6679

I downloaded the book yesterday and after I few pages, I found myself in a bit of bother so I went back and am currently doing lots of basic stuff.

Yeah I found that link after I posted on here so might look into doing that once new dates come up.

Would it be worth my while doing the SCJA?

Lexor

It depends. I had a look at the syllabus on the web-site, and the duration of the course is one week. It covers a lot of java related technologies in that time, but I'd imagine, only from a very superficial level. However, if you are the sort of person who prefers classroom based learning over say, just reading from a book, then it might suit and it's great value either way. If nothing else, it might give you an idea of which java related technology(ies) that you'd like to specialise in.

After doing the SCJA though, you would still need to specialise in one of the technologies (EJB and JSP/servlets probably being the most popular that the course mentions) and for that you would eventually need to get a decent book on the subject matter or follow the online courses that Oracle have for each technology and be prepared to trawl the web a bit..

Hope that helps.

Evil Phil

The official Java Tutorials are a great place to start.

gollem_1975

6679 wrote: »

I am currently after finishing college with a 2.1 in Computer Science and I am thinking of doing 'Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP)' though FAS.

I was pretty bad at programming at college but I do want to try my hand at it and I was wondering do you think its a good idea to do it seeing as I didnt enjoy programming during college?

Should I do it though FAS or should I do it with a school like Dorset College?

I find it amazing that you could get a 2.1 in Computer Science (thats an achievement to be proud of) and claim to be bad at programming.

you're either excessively putting yourself down or else...

You say that you don't like programming ? what elements in your course did you like ? perhaps you would be better off going into support or admin ? why don't you look at QA or testing ?

speaking from the experience of someone who didn't like programming and persevered with it for many years I think you really need to like programming to have a successful career as a programmer ( even more so in the current climate )

Civilian_Target

It depends how you define bad at programming. Most of us are bad at programming if we're sitting beside Donald Knuth!

Seifer

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I find it amazing that you could get a 2.1 in Computer Science (thats an achievement to be proud of) and claim to be bad at programming.

you're either excessively putting yourself down or else...

You're obviously not involved in interviewing graduates so.
As a recent graduate I can testify that people can get a computer science degree without being able to programme at all and could get a 2.1 while being bad at programming. And I mean really bad.

Evil Phil

Civilian_Target wrote: »

It depends how you define bad at programming. Most of us are bad at programming if we're sitting beside Donald Knuth!

I think a lot of graduates think they're bad a programming when they are really just inexperienced.

gollem_1975

Seifer wrote: »

You're obviously not involved in interviewing graduates so.
As a recent graduate I can testify that people can get a computer science degree without being able to programme at all and could get a 2.1 while being bad at programming. And I mean really bad.

I'm not involved in interviewing anybody..never have been but should never say never.

the "or else..." in my post covers the scenario you mention (in my mind anway).. i know people who graduated with masters qualifications in certain subjects that they are far from being masters in!

My advice would still stand that if after 4 years of a computer science course you don't like programming then think twice(and then think again) about going down that career path.

gollem_1975

Evil Phil wrote: »

I think a lot of graduates think they're bad a programming when they are really just inexperienced.

the graduates that think they're good at programming are inexperienced.

the grads that are benchmarking themselves against their peers/fellow grads probably aren't great programmers.

6679

I was interested in the theory part of CS and was able to compensate my bad grades in programming with good grades with the theory. Sure for most of our assignments we copied each other and for final year most of the assignments where done in Matlab which is really easy to programme in.

Out of my class mates I was probably the worst at programming (well the worst who got a 2.1) but some of my mates got 1.1 and yeah they where better at programming then me but not by much.

Then again the best programmer in my course dropped out in second year and another good programmer had to repeat second year while one lad who was pretty much the best student in everything only got a 2.1.

There isnt that many QA or Testing positions about but I have applied for one QA recently but the closing date isnt for a while yet.

jmcc

6679 wrote: »

I was pretty bad at programming at college but I do want to try my hand at it and I was wondering do you think its a good idea to do it seeing as I didnt enjoy programming during college?

Well a few years of college is not enough to decide that. It can take about five years for someone to become fluent enough in a language to be able to "think" in it (going on what some people say about SQL). Like most languages, computer languages are best learned by immersion and your time in college could hardly be considered immersive. What you have been learning are the basics. But once you begin to apply them, you may be surprised at how much you have actually learned.

College courses are aimed at the lowest common denominator and are designed to provide all students with an equal level of mediocrity. However computer languages don't exist in isolation and some elements only make sense when you see them being used. Getting some work experience, even if it is only building some personal project, might be better than some of these other courses. (For the record, I hate Java and I have to learn it in depth for a search engine project.)

Regards...jmcc

gollem_1975

jmcc wrote: »

College courses are aimed at the lowest common denominator and are designed to provide all students with an equal level of mediocrity.

but if after benchmarking himself against his peers and coming to the conclusion that he was a bad programmer would you suggest to him to invest 5 years in learning to program.. based on my own experience I would be reluctant to recommend that course of action.

there are other career paths that can be followed from an academic background of computer science other than programming - QA, support, sys admin, project management, web design, SEO, business analysis , DBA.

on the other hand at least there are jobs in programming at the moment.

jmcc

gollem_1975 wrote: »

but if after benchmarking himself against his peers and coming to the conclusion that he was a bad programmer would you suggest to him to invest 5 years in learning to program..

It is a bit like a medical self-diagnosis without a manual. If you read what I said again, it referred to being able to "think" in a language. This is quite different from the approach used in colleges and may be more like that used in industry. He/she has already spent a few years learning the basics. But learning as part of a course and doing as part of work are two different things with different objectives. The more people use a language and work with it, the more fluent the become in that language (generally). Learning a language as part of a course is really just part-time usage and as such it would be hard to determine how good or bad a programmer you are from that limited experience.

there are other career paths that can be followed from an academic background of computer science other than programming - QA, support, sys admin, project management, web design, SEO, business analysis , DBA.

Web design is a highly contested field and SEO is full of snakeoil salesmen. DBA would require, I think, a good working knowledge of SQL, especially if it involves programming. A course in DBA might be a better option.

Regards...jmcc

Seifer

jmcc wrote: »

Learning a language as part of a course is really just part-time usage and as such it would be hard to determine how good or bad a programmer you are from that limited experience.

It's fairly easy to tell if someone is a bad programmer.
If someone can't write a program to parse and edit a file they're not magically going to be able to contribute meaningfully to a software project just because they're now employed to do that.

gollem_1975

jmcc wrote: »

It is a bit like a medical self-diagnosis without a manual. If you read what I said again, it referred to being able to "think" in a language. This is quite different from the approach used in colleges and may be more like that used in industry. He/she has already spent a few years learning the basics. But learning as part of a course and doing as part of work are two different things with different objectives. The more people use a language and work with it, the more fluent the become in that language (generally). Learning a language as part of a course is really just part-time usage and as such it would be hard to determine how good or bad a programmer you are from that limited experience.

Web design is a highly contested field and SEO is full of snakeoil salesmen. DBA would require, I think, a good working knowledge of SQL, especially if it involves programming. A course in DBA might be a better option.

Regards...jmcc

I suppose in that way you could compare "thinking" in a language to becoming proficient in a spoken language.

I'm not disagreeing with you. it is possible that at some stage the OP will "Get" Java ( or another programming language of choice ) after a number of years of immersion.

But aptitude is a variable in the learning process and I would imagine that a indication of relative aptitude would become obvious after doing a degree in computer science.

Someone could spend 5 years while one of his peers could take 2 years (or less) to get to the same level of understanding.

When I graduated (and I encountered hackwatch early in the 2000's so I know you know your stuff) I thought that programming was the ONLY career path. its no harm for the OP to investigate other options thats all I'm saying really.

Though I suppose this being the development board its not really an appropriate place to try to talk someone out of being a developer

jmcc

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I suppose in that way you could compare "thinking" in a language to becoming proficient in a spoken language.

That's why I was using the double quotes. It is similar to a spoken language but not exactly the same.

I'm not disagreeing with you. it is possible that at some stage the OP will "Get" Java ( or another programming language of choice ) after a number of years of immersion.

This is the problem with learning a computer language - the language needs to be used. Naturally the learning curve varies but the more exposure the OP has to the language as a functional language, the better.

But aptitude is a variable in the learning process and I would imagine that a indication of relative aptitude would become obvious after doing a degree in computer science.

It should do but there are other factors at play. The biggest unknown one is motivation. The quality of the course and the lecturers are minor ones.

Someone could spend 5 years while one of his peers could take 2 years (or less) to get to the same level of understanding.

True. But a lot of those who would take two years may be using that language more than those who take five.

When I graduated (and I encountered hackwatch early in the 2000's so I know you know your stuff) I thought that programming was the ONLY career path. its no harm for the OP to investigate other options thats all I'm saying really.

A long time ago and almost a different life. The main thing would be for the OP to keep their options open.

Though I suppose this being the development board its not really an appropriate place to try to talk someone out of being a developer

Well it might work. But it would be a tragedy if someone had the potential to be a good programmer (maybe not in Java) and gave up because they thought, in comparison with a group of students and on a limited exposure to using a language, that they were a bad programmer.

Regards...jmcc

6679

Funny enough I am not bad at web development but I havent done much to speak of in the past 5 years and dont have a portfolio. I would have to relearn a lot of the languages as I couldn't remember them now and being a bit out dated. I would also agree that this field is really completive so would be a lot harder to get into.

I am currently looking into doing the WPP though FAS.

Evil Phil

One thing I've learned from being a student, don't compare yourself to the other students. Even as mature adults some students have a tendency to big themselves up, when in reality they making it up.

I think OP the big question is, did you or would you enjoy programming? If not, then it's not a career for you, if yes then give it a try.