Protocol in Garda Pursuits? Advice Wanted

buzzwell

Today, travelling on a winding country road I noticed the blue lights flashing a distance away in my mirror. A jeep was directly behind me.
I know the road so indicated to left to pull in a bit but realised the lights werent as close as I thought and it wasnt a great spot of road anyway.
So continued on another bit, this time trying to keep to a sensible speed just to get out of the Garda's way, and here is where my question arises:

On a busy windy road (white-lined, poor distance views, generally very unsafe to overtake) would you be as well putting the foot down to reach a pull over point further up or are you expected to drop everything and just pull over out of the way?

Incidentally after I indicated (yes I did indicate) and pulled in the second time the woman in the jeep promptly overtook me oblivious to everything and the Garda car nearly rear ended her! He did blow her off the road. No sirens at all though

foggy_lad

the best thing to do is to keep to your normal speed but pull over as far to the left as you can do safely and the guards fire service ambulance etc will pass you when they decide it is safe for them to do so, they get slowed down too often by people pulling in to the side so quickly they leave the back of their car blocking the emergency vehicle. or slowing down in a line of traffice thinking the emergency vehicle can squeeze through the three foot gap between lanes of traffic

Turner

If its dangerous to pull in keep driving at your speed but indicate left.

Or put on your hazards so they know you know they are there.

Sirens are useless when travelling at speed.

monument

Re the woman in the jeep:

I know there's a lot of bad drivers out there, but I'm still shocked about the amount of poor reactions Garda cars / ambulances / fire trucks around Dublin city when.

Could see more of it than most as I live at a junction on an urban traffic island. This evening for example, there was an ambulance trying to get by at the junction with red lights. There was no cars coming the other way but a few motorists blocked the ambulance because they would not move out of the way.

Ambulance was blocked for what seemed like ages, lights flashing, sirens blazing and horn beeping. Ambulance driver shouted at the car driver when passing.

Bit of an extrema case, but I see people getting in the way of emergency vehicle way too often. Often its a case of not seen them at all or way after you'd expect somebody to see them, then there's moving the wrong direction or stalling.

antoinolachtnai

The fact that an ambulance is behind you doesn't give you the right to break the line on a red light, does it? If you break the ROTR, drive into the junction and cause an accident, you will be responsible, not the ambulance driver.

I am sympathetic to getting emergency vehicles through quickly myself and would do my best to do so, but there stopping at the lights is always the right thing to do legally.

monument

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The fact that an ambulance is behind you doesn't give you the right to break the line on a red light, does it? If you break the ROTR, drive into the junction and cause an accident, you will be responsible, not the ambulance driver.

I am sympathetic to getting emergency vehicles through quickly myself and would do my best to do so, but there stopping at the lights is always the right thing to do legally.

Yes, I suppose the driver was likely thinking that way too, and so I may have been going a bit hard on them in my last post.

The ROTR says very little firmly in this regard:

....As a user of the road, if you hear or see a Garda or emergency vehicle approaching under emergency conditions and/or using a siren or flashing lights, you should exercise caution, and give way if it is safe to do so. Never ‘tailgate’ an emergency vehicle.

...but in cases like this, I would still error on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, and the ROTR does advise to give way where its safe to -- so if your sure there's nothing coming, break a light isn't a big deal. Although, that is that down to judgement.

And you can see why the ROTR are not more firmly written, you don't want to be giving drivers an excuse to do anything.

antoinolachtnai

The ROTR are not the law, especially the 'should' sections. They are more of a code or a set of guidelines. If you break the ROTR you are probably opening yourself to civil liability, even if you do not break the law.

The fact that you are obeying the ROTR (i.e., giving way by moving forward of the line) doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law about traffic lights or junctions or whateve.

In reality, of course, it's all about judgement.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Most gardai mainly traf corp are trained to deal with situations that arise while driving at weather it be a bend in the road or a have a go hero.
In your case the rsa and gardai would definitly advise you to turn on hazard lighting make your car well lite up turn your reflectors on and also your interior lights if on a dark road so they know your there and judge the distance to determine the speed and actions they should take.
you should never speed up as in this case as you would possibly cause an accident which could involve the the patrol vechile behind you eventually slamming into you too.

Cookie_Monster

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

In your case the rsa and gardai would definitly advise you to turn on hazard lighting make your car well lite up turn your reflectors on and also your interior lights if on a dark road so they know your there and judge the distance to determine the speed and actions they should take.
you should never speed up as in this case as you would possibly cause an accident which could involve the the patrol vechile behind you eventually slamming into you too.

how do you do that? :pac::pac:

Also if you are driving the car along I'm pretty sure they'll realise you are there without you having to turn on the interior light, which will impact your vision and is not a good idea at all in the dark

monument

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The ROTR are not the law, especially the 'should' sections. They are more of a code or a set of guidelines. If you break the ROTR you are probably opening yourself to civil liability, even if you do not break the law.

The fact that you are obeying the ROTR (i.e., giving way by moving forward of the line) doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law about traffic lights or junctions or whateve.

In reality, of course, it's all about judgement.

Yes, you would be breaking the letter of the law. While the ROTR is not the law, it's still guidance which holds some weight. But as you said a civil rather than criminal case would be the worry.

On judgement, a more reasoned version of my first post would say that too many drivers I see have very poor judgement around emergency vehicles, but I suppose that's often the case without emergency vehicles around too.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how do you do that? :pac::pac:

Also if you are driving the car along I'm pretty sure they'll realise you are there without you having to turn on the interior light, which will impact your vision and is not a good idea at all in the dark

In the case of been on a dark road use them precautions if an emergancy service vechile is coming from behind you at a especially a patrol car at high rate of speed. Interior light is just for the added advantage of been seen and is inside the vechile shining down in the cabin its not directly at the patrol car and if if dazzles a garda driver its not an order interior so its litterly impossible to be dazzled or in anyway affect driving conditions secondly your Anti dazzle rear reflectors are to be used to as another advantage to seen as its advising the patrol car your stopped or that there is a vechile in front and yet still visible. For example no sense in having a high vis jacket and not having the silver foil reflectors on it if your on a dark road.
and you can never be too sure in them situations as a member of the fire brigade and gardai both wearing high vis jackets and sirens on while attending road traffic accident yet they wore hit by a car driven by a sober civilian so making your self known and visible in these situations are invaluable.

foggy_lad

basically the thing to do is KEEP LEFT.

nothing else is required as if the guards fire service ambulance etc want to pass you they want to do so safely and seeing people driving like lunatics to dive out of the way is not the way to go. and if it is dark or dusk you should have your lights on including red lights showing to the rear so you will be seen by all other road users.

Cookie_Monster

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

In the case of been on a dark road use them precautions if an emergancy service vechile is coming from behind you at a especially a patrol car at high rate of speed. Interior light is just for the added advantage of been seen and is inside the vechile shining down in the cabin its not directly at the patrol car and if if dazzles a garda driver its not an order interior so its litterly impossible to be dazzled or in anyway affect driving conditions secondly your Anti dazzle rear reflectors are to be used to as another advantage to seen as its advising the patrol car your stopped or that there is a vechile in front and yet still visible. For example no sense in having a high vis jacket and not having the silver foil reflectors on it if your on a dark road.
and you can never be too sure in them situations as a member of the fire brigade and gardai both wearing high vis jackets and sirens on while attending road traffic accident yet they wore hit by a car driven by a sober civilian so making your self known and visible in these situations are invaluable.

i've read that a good few times now and it still doesn't make sense to me...

Sgt. Bilko 09

basicly be well lite in dark places ha

slimjimmc

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

i've read that a good few times now and it still doesn't make sense to me...

I think he's talking about lighting up your car as much as possible while stopped at the side of the road in darkness so that oncoming traffic, and especially fast moving emergency vehicles, will notice you more easily. Hence the reference to reflectors and interior lighting.

How exactly any of this is relevant to the OP (i.e. what to do when you see a fast moving Garda with blues lit up behind you as you're driving along) is beyond me. If it is relevant it would be nice if he could explain it.

buzzwell

I've been in a couple of situations driving larger and slower vehicles with the blue lights behind me and knowing they werent going to be able to get through have actually speeded up to the next available wider part of the road to pull in, rather than fussing about trying to pull over when you know it wont benefit or even hinder the blue lighters..

Sirens need to be louder nowadays too, what with air con, phones, car stereos, DVDs, screaming children etc battling for earspace in the vehicle.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

In the case of been on a dark road use them precautions if an emergancy service vechile is coming from behind you at a especially a patrol car at high rate of speed. Interior light is just for the added advantage of been seen and is inside the vechile shining down in the cabin its not directly at the patrol car and if if dazzles a garda driver its not an order interior so its litterly impossible to be dazzled or in anyway affect driving conditions secondly your Anti dazzle rear reflectors are to be used to as another advantage to seen as its advising the patrol car your stopped or that there is a vechile in front and yet still visible. For example no sense in having a high vis jacket and not having the silver foil reflectors on it if your on a dark road.
and you can never be too sure in them situations as a member of the fire brigade and gardai both wearing high vis jackets and sirens on while attending road traffic accident yet they wore hit by a car driven by a sober civilian so making your self known and visible in these situations are invaluable.

Wot???


One thing that bugs the hell outta me is when emergency vehicles don't use their sirens, just flashing lights...then come up behind an unknowing car, and blast the sirens then.


So keep the sirens on!! That way other road users can figure out where it is coming from and plan appropriately.


Or even worse...I hear a siren somewhere and its turned off again...I'm like "where the hell did it go"...and am constantly looking at my rear view mirror.

Terrontress

Just because you see blue lights does not mean that the vehicle behind wants to overtake you, especially if it is some distance behind.

I have seen Gardai on blues riding in front of a cycle race. To stop and wait for them to get past would only complicate matters. Also, I am sure there are ambulances travelling on emergency that cannot go over a maximum speed due to patient cover but might need to overtake at a traffic jam.

Best thing to do is to wait until the emergency vehicle is obviously travelling more quickly than you, indicate to the left and take your foot off the accelerator.

foggy_lad

Terrontress wrote: »

Just because you see blue lights does not mean that the vehicle behind wants to overtake you, especially if it is some distance behind.

I have seen Gardai on blues riding in front of a cycle race. To stop and wait for them to get past would only complicate matters. Also, I am sure there are ambulances travelling on emergency that cannot go over a maximum speed due to patient cover but might need to overtake at a traffic jam.

Best thing to do is to wait until the emergency vehicle is obviously travelling more quickly than you, indicate to the left and take your foot off the accelerator.

i would not slow down as doing so will only hinder their progress, keep to the left at your normal speed(pull onto the hard shoulder if there is one) and they will pass when it is safe to do so.

Terrontress

foggy_lad wrote: »

i would not slow down as doing so will only hinder their progress, keep to the left at your normal speed(pull onto the hard shoulder if there is one) and they will pass when it is safe to do so.

I certainly wouldn't brake but I would lift off the accelerator.

As regards breaking a red light when an emergency vehicle is behind you; is it against the law to do so?

I know that any Garda would use his discretion but there are many countries with automatic cameras to detect people breaking reds. I'd imagine Ireland will not be too far behind once the privatised speed cameras are rolled out.

Will Garda behind be accepted as an excuse? And how would you go about proving it?

ILA

I immensely dislike it when emergency vehicles don't use their sirens until the last minute, I've come across this a lot in recent years whereas before you'd always have a chance to hear them coming from a distance and plan where to pull over a bit without obstructing them.

It's a thing I've noticed with Garda traffic stops as well. I've never been stopped, but I've often saw them stopping a car with just blue lights, or in one case, blowing the horn, flashing headlights and then a quick flash of blue lights, no siren. The person first thought (a) it was a member who knew her, and then (b) wanted her to get out of the way, after the blue lights she figured she'd better pull in anyway.

foggy_lad

ILA wrote: »

I immensely dislike it when emergency vehicles don't use their sirens until the last minute, I've come across this a lot in recent years whereas before you'd always have a chance to hear them coming from a distance and plan where to pull over a bit without obstructing them.

It's a thing I've noticed with Garda traffic stops as well. I've never been stopped, but I've often saw them stopping a car with just blue lights, or in one case, blowing the horn, flashing headlights and then a quick flash of blue lights, no siren. The person first thought (a) it was a member who knew her, and then (b) wanted her to get out of the way, after the blue lights she figured she'd better pull in anyway.

if the guards want you to pull over for them they should signal clearly and then it is up to you to find a safe place(not on the motorway) to stop.