Appealing District Court ruling....

DeVore

Full disclosure: this question arose from a friend of mine who has been fined 650 euro and banned from driving for 2 years because he failed to produce insurance for his car in the days after being stopped. (he was insured and proved it in court). I provide this background only to show what an idiotic ruling it is that got me thinking, the question is more of a general nature.


Is it possible to appeal district court decisions in the circuit court or do you need "leave to appeal". If you do appeal, what are the daily costs roughly?

Is there any "this is bonkers surely someone can see that" options or does everyone who appeals think that

If it fails, do you have to pay the state's costs defending the appeal? If so, how much does that rack up at a day in general?


I'm not looking for specific advice on his case, I'm looking for general information about appealing a district court appeal.

DeV.

ps: going to the DC was an eye opener, its a joke. Its a barely compus mentis senile wrinklie presiding over a room full of ne'erdowells and a bunch of concerned parents and a bloke from D4 who was caught with "an ounce for my party loike". I would rate it barely ahead of pandemonium and a considerable distance from "justice" from what I could see. If we ran Boards like that, no one would come here.

detective

DeVore wrote: »

Full disclosure: this question arose from a friend of mine who has been fined 650 euro and banned from driving for 2 years because he failed to produce insurance for his car in the days after being stopped. (he was insured and proved it in court). I provide this background only to show what an idiotic ruling it is that got me thinking, the question is more of a general nature.
ps: going to the DC was an eye opener, its a joke. Its a barely compus mentis senile wrinklie presiding over a room full of ne'erdowells and a bunch of concerned parents and a bloke from D4 who was caught with "an ounce for my party loike". I would rate it barely ahead of pandemonium and a considerable distance from "justice" from what I could see. If we ran Boards like that, no one would come here.

It sounds like an astonishing sentence for not producing insurance. Maybe he called the a Judge a barely compus mentis wrinklie?

Whitewater-AGS

DeVore wrote: »

I would rate it barely ahead of pandemonium and a considerable distance from "justice" from what I could see.

As the now infamous quote from a district court judge goes "this is a court of law not a court of justice":)

Strange ruling and one i've never seen before!

Our man in Havana

The circuit judge is going to have some fun with this case.

Croc

Just go to your local District Court Office and tell them you want to appeal they will give you all the appropriate paper work and tell you what to do. They are usually very helpful

You don't need leave to appeal


I have no idea as to cost but it can normally be dealt with by a solicitor. Get you skates on as you have 14 days to lodge the appeal but you can apply yo the court for and extension of time if its gone past the 14 days it not a problem getting it but just more hassle.

Jo King

Croc wrote: »

Just go to your local District Court Office and tell them you want to appeal they will give you all the appropriate paper work and tell you what to do. They are usually very helpful

You don't need leave to appeal


I have no idea as to cost but it can normally be dealt with by a solicitor. Get you skates on as you have 14 days to lodge the appeal but you can apply yo the court for and extension of time if its gone past the 14 days it not a problem getting it but just more hassle.

If it has gone past the 14 days the ban stays in place until the appeal is heard.
Clearly the Defendant in this case was not legally represented. He should have shown his insurance to the guard before the case was called, not in court. He annoyed the judge and is now going to suffer.
He should check whether recognisances were set. If it is the judge I think it is, they are likely to be onerous.

johnnyskeleton

DeVore wrote: »

Full disclosure: this question arose from a friend of mine who has been fined 650 euro and banned from driving for 2 years because he failed to produce insurance for his car in the days after being stopped. (he was insured and proved it in court). I provide this background only to show what an idiotic ruling it is that got me thinking, the question is more of a general nature.

Just so you know, driving without insurance and failing to produce a certificate of insurance on demand are two separate offences.

DeVore wrote: »

Is it possible to appeal district court decisions in the circuit court or do you need "leave to appeal".

Automatic right to appeal, and it is a full rehearing of the case (but only on the conviction, if a no insurance charge was struck out it should stay struck out), but recognisances (like a bail bond) must be set and entered into before the appeal can be put in.

Rule on appeals here:
http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/e7bc3303e9b0464a80256d2b0046a095?OpenDocument
Notice of appeal here:
http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/53bd32841fc5bbf280256d2b0045bb5d/70a48b7e37a440c780257642003d90d6?OpenDocument

In Dublin there are nice neat forms available in a lot of district court offices. Outside of Dublin registrars can be less fussy and it can be drafted by a person themselves.

DeVore wrote: »

If you do appeal, what are the daily costs roughly?

First of all, nothing if someone represents themselves, or whatever they agree with a solicitor if they are represented by a solicitor. Considering that your friend got a €650 fine and a disqualification, paying a solicitor might not be a bad idea.

Secondly, the District Court Appeals in the Circuit Court are run pretty much like in the District Court, although there are less of them. So there is a good chance it will be dealt with on the first day in the Circuit Court, and might only take a few minutes.

DeVore wrote: »

Is there any "this is bonkers surely someone can see that" options or does everyone who appeals think that

Yes, and a lot of them do. Again, not entirely bonkers, if a little unfair, because having insurance does not absolve someone from producing if a demand was made. Especially if they were not displaying the disc in the vehicle.

DeVore wrote: »

If it fails, do you have to pay the state's costs defending the appeal? If so, how much does that rack up at a day in general?

No.

DeVore wrote: »

I'm not looking for specific advice on his case, I'm looking for general information about appealing a district court appeal.

Appealing a district court decision you mean - there is no direct appeal from a district court appeal so it is effectively final. District Court office is the way to go.

DeVore wrote: »

ps: going to the DC was an eye opener, its a joke. Its a barely compus mentis senile wrinklie presiding over a room full of ne'erdowells and a bunch of concerned parents and a bloke from D4 who was caught with "an ounce for my party loike". I would rate it barely ahead of pandemonium and a considerable distance from "justice" from what I could see. If we ran Boards like that, no one would come here.

Depends on the judge really. But what did you expect? Judges are usually old, people charged with criminal offences are sometimes (co-incidentally) na'erdowells, a parent's love is blind and people from D4 sure do like to party. Summary justice is swift, and perhaps your view of it overall was tainted by your view of the decision in your friend's case.

As Joe says it is best to get the appeal in within 14 days. There is an argument that a late appeal is also suspensive, but do you really want to get into high fallutin legal argument?

MagicSean

I'd say the judge was just annoyed at the amount of court and garda time wasted by people too lazy to produce their documents at a Garda station. It is a seperate offence to having no insurance. Your friends case may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camels back and the judge decided to make an example out of him. The ban seems excessive though. Although for all we know there could be tonnes of previous convictions. Before lodging the appeal your friend should consult a solicitor because he will need to decide wether he is appealing the conviction or the penalty.

Jo King

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Automatic right to appeal, and it is a full rehearing of the case (but only on the conviction, if a no insurance charge was struck out it should stay struck out), but recognisances (like a bail bond) must be set and entered into before the appeal can be put in.


So there is a good chance it will be dealt with on the first day in the Circuit Court, and might only take a few minutes.


As Joe says it is best to get the appeal in within 14 days. There is an argument that a late appeal is also suspensive, but do you really want to get into high fallutin legal argument?

If no recognisances were set none need be entered into. In Dublin re-hearings are never dealt with on the first day unless the prosecution agree to allow the appeal.

In an extension of time to appeal is applied for the judge allowing the extension of time has no power to stay the conviction. Any attempt to challenge that is Supreme Court territory.

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

If no recognisances were set none need be entered into.

Technically so, but if you want to appeal you have to enter into a recognsiance. I suppose a judge could set a nil bond but they still must be set.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/DistrictAmdLookup/No101-S.I.+No.+484+Of+2003:+District+Court+(Appeals+To+The+Circuit+Court)+Rules+2003

Jo King wrote: »

In Dublin re-hearings are never dealt with on the first day unless the prosecution agree to allow the appeal.

It depends on the judge, but for a documents case most judges will take it on the first day unless there is an element of complexity. They have a R.T.A. list and short hearings can go ahead if ready and there is sufficient time in the list.

Jo King wrote: »

In an extension of time to appeal is applied for the judge allowing the extension of time has no power to stay the conviction.

I'm not sure about that. That was the case prior to 2005, but the rules were changed and irrespective of when the appeal is entered the entering of the recognisances is sufficent to stay the execution of the order of the district court:

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/DistrictAmdLookup/No101-S.I.+No.+80+Of+2005:+District+Court+(Appeals+To+The+Circuit+Court)+Rules+2005

What is not clear is whether this applies as regards a disqualification because there is a specific statutory provision regarding the stay of a disqualification pending appeal. My view is that if the order is stayed then that also includes the disqualification, but it is easy to see why this view is not common from an administrative point of view.

Jo King wrote: »

Any attempt to challenge that is Supreme Court territory.

Why would you bother the Supreme Court with it? Certainly you'd ony end up there after arguing it in a few other places first.

Jo King

2003] 1 I.L.R.M. 420
Michael Darby v Judge David Anderson The Governor of Mountjoy Prison and the Director of Public Prosecutions
2002 No. 550

Held by Ó Caoimh J in granting the relief sought:
(3) At the stage of entering a conviction and imposing sentence a judge of the District Court should consider whether a recognisance is to be required in addition to the service of a notice of appeal. If no thought is given to this and no recognisance is fixed then the entry of the appeal and the furnishing of notice thereof in accordance with the Rules of the District Court will act as a stay of the order of the District Court on any sentence of imprisonment that may have been imposed.

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

2003] 1 I.L.R.M. 420
Michael Darby v Judge David Anderson The Governor of Mountjoy Prison and the Director of Public Prosecutions
2002 No. 550

Held by Ó Caoimh J in granting the relief sought:
(3) At the stage of entering a conviction and imposing sentence a judge of the District Court should consider whether a recognisance is to be required in addition to the service of a notice of appeal. If no thought is given to this and no recognisance is fixed then the entry of the appeal and the furnishing of notice thereof in accordance with the Rules of the District Court will act as a stay of the order of the District Court on any sentence of imprisonment that may have been imposed.

How is that case relevant?

Jo King

It is quite clear. If the judge does not set recognisance on conviction then none need be entered into prior to prosecuting an appeal.

Also

20. The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 30 :

“Operation of disqualification order.

30

(c) Where a consequential or ancillary disqualification order (or, where the order is related to a conviction, that conviction) is the subject of an appeal, notice of which is lodged within fourteen days of the making of the order, and the convicted person has duly entered into a recognisance to prosecute the appeal, the operation of the order shall stand suspended pending the appeal.

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

It is quite clear. If the judge does not set recognisance on conviction then none need be entered into prior to prosecuting an appeal.

In 2002 that was the law. Not anymore. See my previous post with a link to the current rule (brought in more or less in response to Darby)

Jo King wrote: »

Also

20. The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 30 :

“Operation of disqualification order.

30

(c) Where a consequential or ancillary disqualification order (or, where the order is related to a conviction, that conviction) is the subject of an appeal, notice of which is lodged within fourteen days of the making of the order, and the convicted person has duly entered into a recognisance to prosecute the appeal, the operation of the order shall stand suspended pending the appeal.

Again see my earlier post. That section doesn't say what happens if a notice of appeal is lodged outside of 14 days, so it's somewhat of a grey area.

sbkenn

The only place where there is any respect for the individual, or the Constitution, is the Supreme Court, and even there is is only a thin veneer of respect.

hullaballoo

Em.

This thread is very old and I really don't think it was necessary to drag it up from the grave for this rubbish.

Closed.