1984 has it become real life for some people?

politicsdude

I was reading an article today that really set me to thinking .. is north korea the real life version of what George Orwell was fortelling? What if history had turned out a little differently and comunism had spread across the globe would more countries be like ... like Oceania? its a scary thought when you think about it. ... Great book by the way so if you haven't read it what are you waiting for!

Man i wonder how many winston smiths there are over there

Revolution9

Not all communism states would be as secretive as North Korea.
Cuba has never hid itself away from the world like the North Koreans.
It's more of a totalitarianist thing than specifically a commie thing.

How many Winston Smith's are out there? is a good way to put it. Makes me feel a whole lot more pity for the North Korean people when we bring good old Winston into it.

Revolution9

Oh, and read Animal Farm by Orwell if you havn't already!

Eliot Rosewater

When I first read Nineteen Eighty-four I found it fantastic - but I still considered it something of a fantasy that was only mildly applicable, in a symbolic way, to modern life. This view of mine was changed when I read Orwell's essay Looking Back On The Spanish War, a part of which concerns the control of information and the use of propaganda during that war. It's quite obvious, from the following quote, that a lot of the inspiration for Nineteen Eighty-four came from a real thing that actually happened.

Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as ‘the truth’ exists. There is, for instance, no such thing as ‘Science’. There is only ‘German Science’, ‘Jewish Science’, etc. The implied objective of this line of thought is a nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls not only the future but the past. If the Leader says of such and such an event, ‘It never happened’ — well, it never happened. If he says that two and two are five — well, two and two are five. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs — and after our experiences of the last few years that is not a frivolous statement.

This essay was published a full eight years before the novel.

I think a lot of the power of the book lies in applying small parts of it to certain scenarios. North Korea might represent the book fully, but that's not to say that it shouldn't be applied to comparatively less authoritatian situations.

Consider, as an example, the recent Tony Blair visit to Dublin. Media outlets and the Gardai reported that objects, such as shoes and eggs, had been thrown in the direction of Mr Blair and his security entourage. We were discussing the protest in the Politics forum when someone came in and stated that shoes and eggs had not been thrown; that the Gardai and the media were lying. That statement was a direct and unabashed attempt to rewrite history into something that would better suit the political position of the poster involved, a thing directly comparible to the doings of the Ministry of Truth. The subsequent charges of Orwellianism were well merited, in my opinion. The utility of Orwell's book, in this case, is to warn us against trusting anyone like this, who is willing to rewrite history, with political power. And this is applying the book to Ireland, not some far off authoritatian regime.

Denerick

Ditto to Eliot.

I read 1984 when I was very young, and only partially grasped the meaning and purpose of it. I must re-read it one of these days. As for 1984 becoming real life; the best measure of a novelist is the degree to which he reflects life, and exposes it for the frivolous mess that it is

Feeona

We Irish consider certain things to be normal. It wasn't until I spent a year in a vastly different culture did I realise that what I considered to be normal was a product of my upbringing, schooling and Irish/American/British media. We're all conditioned to think a certain way whether we like it or not and you can be sure that many people in North Korea have learned to feel sorry for anyone who doesn't live in a country as great as theirs.
From the moment we're born, people around us are keen to leave their imprint (maybe not as drastic as a boot stamping on a human face, but an imprint nonetheless). Most of us strive to create a world (local or universal) that fits in with our ideals. A heady mix of power, charisma and a fixation on an unattainable ideal all lend themselves well to the role of dictator.

Permabear

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Valmont

Interesting and slightly frightening... I almost deleted my facebook account but then how could I tell everyone what I have for breakfast tomorrow?

Amazotheamazing

donegalfella wrote: »

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Depends on how you view the connectivity surely? Orwell might dislike it or equally he might see it as the Proles forming a coherent body to limit the power of the oppressive state. We've seen the power of viral networking whether it's helping get Obama into office or putting pressure on to get Cowan out of office. For example, Sarah Palin might never be taken seriously by the mainstream because anytime one (I am not a number, I am a free man) wants one (wait, no I am D-503) can post a picture of Tina Fey accurately portraying her for the idiot she is.

You can send ideas around the world instantly now and I don't think any repressive regime is going to be successful in putting the genie back in the bottle. We've taken freedom of thought and freedom of expression and placed them in a context where so many people are exercising them every day that it will be difficult to roll back from that.

On the otherhand, there is a growing disconnect between the shared/collective experience and the individual, imo. For example, I get a bus, I listen to Van Morrison on earphones, it's Moondance, I'm relaxed, I'm sitting back and think about New York. The girl beside me is listening to Girls Aloud, she's thinking about X Factor, etc. We're on the same bus but our experiences are very different. This was always so but technology has amplified this disconnect. Does that mean our experiences are ever more individual, the concept of a collective experience is being diminished? (See also, the tools who record gigs on cameras, why bother?)

I think it's possible to see the growth of social networking as a new era of democracy, everyone gets some sort of say, if they want. It will allow people Glenn Beck rise to prominence but equally it will allow satirical websites like the Onion trash him. Orwell didn't fear the technology, he feared it's misuse. We face the challenge now how to ensure it's not misused. If Valmont wants to tell us what he had for breakfast, he has his forum to do so.

I think the huge progression from the collective to the individual that has been made in Western culture since the middle ages is just been played to another level on these sites, we are allowed ever greater platforms to showcase how unique we are, fittingly, most people use it to play farmville.

evercloserunion

To be honest the worst thing to come from that book is that it gave extreme libertarians (and conspiracy nutters generally) a buzzword to throw at anything that doen't quite fit their own narrow world view. Pretty much anything the state or some large organisation does or tries to is labeled as "Orwellian" and compared to 1984. I've heard the EU called Orwellian countless times. Practically every time someone installs a CCTV camera now it's "like something out of 1984". IMO the widespread use of that book (along with Animal Farm) to criticise pretty much anything that is inconsistent with a right-wing libertarian small-government view of the world has watered down its impact. "Big brother" is another term that has been over-used, though that's probably more due to the TV show than the book.

Permabear

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storm2811

I read 1984 a few months ago when my mam just started a new job in door to door sales.

Anyway, they sent her an email one day that said something along the lines of "Your laptop may only be used for work purposes, all sales must be genuine" etc etc.

At the end they said something like "Anyone not complying with the rules will be given a warning, BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING"

It was the most unusual thing I've ever seen, lost for words.
Who would say that?
After finishing 1984 a short while before she got the email I did see how it could be true in some ways today.
Still though, I don't much employers actually say things like that, but a few work in that way.

politicsdude

"Well, in countries such as Cuba and North Korea, totalitarian governments have been quite successful in restricting people's access to these ideas."

yeah even in places like china access to stuff regarding teanamen (can't spell) square is restricted. They may not be able to expunge an idea once it has taken root in someone but they can do a hell of a lot to ensure they never actually have that idea in the first place. And they can implant ideas of there own such as the way the North Korean gov can brainwash their populace into believing the USA used various weapons of mass destruction during the korean war etc.

The 411

In North Korea, citizens aren't allowed to turn the radio off in their homes, just turn them down - an idea lifted directly from Orwell's book.

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The 411 wrote: »

In North Korea, citizens aren't allowed to turn the radio off in their homes, just turn them down - an idea lifted directly from Orwell's book.

Are they not thinking about their carbon footprint?! :eek:

Feeona

politicsdude wrote: »

And they can implant ideas of there own such as the way the North Korean gov can brainwash their populace into believing the USA used various weapons of mass destruction during the korean war etc.

Just like the US spreading the story that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Even worse, the US had previously sold weapons to Iraq, very reminiscent of the type of amnesia mentioned in 1984 (Oceania are at war with Eurasia, even though the year before the press would've reported that they were allies). I don't think the West is so different to the East, each has their own agenda, and each will declare that the other is wrong. Both sides will control the masses by whatever means. Coercion and/or X Factor seem to appease the masses.

Bill Hicks did some great routines on the reasons behind US invasion of Iraq during the nineties. Listening to him, you'd think his material was recorded in the noughties. History repeating itself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqBOMBSDQsI&feature=related

Dudess

It's reasonable to compare such an extreme, harsh vision with Cambodia and North Korea, but with e.g. Ireland just because there's CCTV (which we're made aware of) and some censorship (which we're free to whinge all we want about) I find extremely ludicrous - and more than a bit emo.

goose2005

The 411 wrote: »

In North Korea, citizens aren't allowed to turn the radio off in their homes, just turn them down - an idea lifted directly from Orwell's book.

Is that true? I'd heard that radios were fixed to only pick up government ffrequencies, and that tampering with a radio (so one could get outside broadcasts) was a serious crime.

Amazotheamazing

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again it's personal choice though, isn't it. If people want to spend all day online they have the freedom to do so. I agree we need space for ourselves, but on a forum about literature you'll probably always gets people who enjoy putting away the computer and reading a book

Wrt to North Korea and Cuba I'd point out that people in other communist states like Laos, Cambodia or Vietnam can get on facebook despite it being blocked by their Government, if you go to any internet cafe in those countries people are openly flouting the ban. It's a small example but it does show how people are using the internet to challenge Government authority.

Wrt to "hive mind" I think it's worth remembering most people want to belong to something, even if it's belonging to a group of "outsiders", we are social creatures, most people are not and do not want to be truly independent. They just want the freedom to choose what they belong to. I'll admit it's not a topic I know much about though, if you can recommend any good books on it (factual or fiction) I'll happily check them out.