Irelands the polar opposite of the Netherlands in terms of drug policy

BogMonkey

Where did this country go wrong? Even the US are changing their draconian drug laws and steering them towards regulation while Ireland is going backwards and steering the laws towards prohibition. I know very little about politics and legislation so I can't really talk about this kinda **** without making scores of mistakes but anyone here knowledgable in the area, what would it take to steer Irelands drug policy in the direction of that of the Netherlands?

In my opinion the Netherlands should be a model country in terms of laws. I believe they have the right idea by legalising various psychoactive compounds as well as things like prostitution and suicide. These are steps towards becoming a free society in my opinion because these are all things that people agree to do so they are choices that only they should be allowed to make for themselves.

mathepac

BogMonkey wrote: »

... Even the US are changing their draconian drug laws and steering them towards regulation while Ireland is going backwards and steering the laws towards prohibition. ...

Which substances do you mean here? Some US states have lagalised the use of cannabis as a palliative / treatment for certain medical conditions, but it's done on a case by case basis and is by no means a blanket US-wide deregulation.

BogMonkey wrote: »

... what would it take to steer Irelands drug policy in the direction of that of the Netherlands?

In my opinion the Netherlands should be a model country in terms of laws. I believe they have the right idea by legalising various psychoactive compounds ...

Again what specific drug policies and what specific substances do you mean here?

Some people assume, incorrectly, that cannabis use, dealing & possession are legal in the Netherlands; I can assure you they are not.

source

mathepac wrote: »

Some people assume, incorrectly, that cannabis use, dealing & possession are legal in the Netherlands; I can assure you they are not.

Correct, the Dutch recently passed legislation that states you must be a Dutch national/resident to use the cafes. So the OPs use of Holland as a model for deregulating drugs is null and void, as they are starting to regulate it more.

Wile E. Coyote

BogMonkey wrote: »

what would it take to steer Irelands drug policy in the direction of that of the Netherlands?

It would take a big turn around in the voting numbers to get the current or any future government to change their policy on drugs.

At the minute it's the older generation and the Joe Duffy brigade that vote in big numbers. They're against any amendments to the current drug policy so to gain the votes so are the government. Just look at how quick they were to jump on the Head shops when there was a few calls to Joe.

Wile E. Coyote

foinse wrote: »

Correct, the Dutch recently passed legislation that states you must be a Dutch national/resident to use the cafes.

So tourists can't use the cafe's anymore?

BogMonkey

mathepac wrote: »

Which substances do you mean here? Some US states have lagalised the use of cannabis as a palliative / treatment for certain medical conditions, but it's done on a case by case basis and is by no means a blanket US-wide deregulation.

Yeah thats what I was referring to, California and other states in USA accepting the fact that cannabis does have medicinal uses and implementing into their pharmacopoeia.

mathepac wrote: »

Some people assume, incorrectly, that cannabis use, dealing & possession are legal in the Netherlands; I can assure you they are not.

Possession and consumption of cannabis, psilocybe mushrooms and various other psychoactive substances is legal in the Netherlands so I don't really know what you're talking about. They brought in a new law prohibiting non Dutch citizens from smoking cannabis in cafes but considering the Netherlands is the only 1st world country where cannabis is legal, its not hard to see how tourists from all over the world flocking there to get stoned in the cafes could become a problem.

foinse wrote: »

So the OPs use of Holland as a model for deregulating drugs is null and void, as they are starting to regulate it more.

Slightly flawed logic you have there.

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

It would take a big turn around in the voting numbers to get the current or any future government to change their policy on drugs.

At the minute it's the older generation and the Joe Duffy brigade that vote in big numbers. They're against any amendments to the current drug policy so to gain the votes so are the government. Just look at how quick they were to jump on the Head shops when there was a few calls to Joe.

How can I vote for whether or not psychoactive substances should be prohibited or not though? The only thing I've voted for since I turned 18 was the Lisbon treaty (I voted no) but if I've had the opportunity to vote for anything since then, its news to me.

source

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

So tourists can't use the cafe's anymore?

Correct, I don't know if it's still at the bill stage or if it's been passed into law, but that's the general gist of it.

Dutch 'to ban' drug tourism
Foreigners heading to Amsterdam's famous marijuana cafés will soon will be banned from buying cannabis in a bid to end drug tourism to the Netherlands.


By Bruno Waterfield
Published: 4:35PM BST 10 Sep 2009

"Coffee shops" where small amounts of cannabis have been legally bought and smoked since 1976, have become a major industry and a popular tourist attraction in Dutch cities.

But the Dutch cabinet is expected on Friday to introduce measures to prevent tourists buying or smoking marijuana as part of a major overhaul of the country's "gedoogbeleid" or tolerance policy on soft drugs.

The Dutch ministers of justice, home affairs and health will table proposals for legislation to keep foreigners out of the country's cannabis selling cafés in order to reduce crime and social nuisances.

Under the proposals, "coffee shops", that are licensed to sell marijuana, will have to introduce a members-only pass system to keep non-local or non-Dutch cannabis smokers from buying drugs.

"Coffee shops should again become what they were originally meant to be: vending points for local users and not large-scale suppliers to consumers from neighbouring countries," concluded a government commission in July.

"The situation has got out of hand."

One of the biggest problems caused by drug tourism is the influx of foreign tourists, including many young Britons, who come to Netherlands to smoke and consume cannabis that is illegal in their home countries.

The problem is especially acute in Dutch border towns and cities that lie close to Belgium, France and Germany.

Turnover of the legal "coffee shop" trade is estimated to be at least £1.6 billion every year.

New restrictions are also expected to reduce the amount of cannabis that can be bought over the counter, from five to three grams.

Raymond Dufour, of the Netherlands Drug Policy Foundation, is opposed to the new restrictions which, he argued, will be challenged in the European Union courts.

"We have a problem with European law here, as all European citizens should be treated equally," he told Radio Netherlands.

"It also won't solve the problems in a city like Amsterdam. Many tourists buy their cannabis in coffee shops there. If they can't buy it anymore, the sale will go underground as in many other cities in the world."

There were concerns that the ban would be against EU competition laws however this article:

Dutch told they can ban sale of drugs to tourists

Friday, July 16, 2010

THE Netherlands can ban over-the-counter sales of marijuana in Dutch "coffee shops" to non-residents to end drugs tourism from Ireland, Belgium, France, Germany and other countries, a senior adviser to the European Union high court said yesterday.

Tens of thousands of people travel from Ireland annually to visit the world-famous cafes.

Yves Bot, the high court’s advocate general, said that, while selling soft drugs is legal in Holland, it is illegal elsewhere in the EU, which means products such as marijuana fall outside the protection of the free movement of goods across the 27-nation bloc.

Bot’s view is not binding on the high court, but the court often follows it.

It is scheduled to rule soon in the case of a coffee shop owner who sued the city of Maastricht in 2005 for banning the sale of soft drugs to non-residents of the Netherlands.

The city, which has a population of 120,000, did so to end the influx of 10,000 people a day — the majority of them residents of neighbouring nations — to buy marijuana and hashish. Dutch coffee shops cannot sell more than 5 grams of cannabis per person per day and their stock must not exceed 500 grams.

The city’s ban on sales of marijuana and hashish to foreign customers measure to cut crime from drug- tourism, the adviser said.

Yves Bot said "as drug tourism represents a genuine and sufficiently serious threat to public order in Maastricht, the exclusion of non-residents from coffee shops" is a "necessary" means to protect residents. The Luxembourg-based EU court follows this advice in a majority of cases.

While the Netherlands decriminalised the use of marijuana in 1976, it stopped short of fully legalising the drug because international treaties prohibited it from doing so. The country’s first coffee shop, named after Donovan’s song Mellow Yellow, opened its doors four years earlier.

It’s up to each of the EU’s 27 nations "to determine the measures necessary for maintaining public order," said Bot.

The city of Maastricht will first study the opinion before giving a reaction, spokeswoman Marianne Ravestein said.

A ruling in line with yesterday’s opinion would be a setback for Marc Josemans, owner of the "Easy Going" coffee shop, who has been entangled in a dispute with the mayor of Maastricht, a city in the south of the Netherlands, since 2006, when Josemans was forced to close his shop after breaching the disputed rules.

Josemans couldn’t immediately be reached for a comment on yesterday’s opinion.

"Narcotics, including cannabis, are not goods like others and their sale doesn’t benefit from EU laws protecting the free movement of products in the region," said Bot. While the sale of marijuana is tolerated in coffee shops in the Netherlands, "it remains an activity prohibited by all" EU nations, the EU court adviser said.

Of the 10,000 people who visit the city of Maastricht a day, some 70% come from Belgium, Germany and France.



This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Friday, July 16, 2010


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/dutch-told-they-can-ban-sale-of-drugs-to-tourists-125198.html#ixzz10GncXnsQ

Says that the EU competition rules don't apply because the "product" is not legally available in all 27 states. Leaving the Dutch government to implement the ban.

Paulw

BogMonkey wrote: »

How can I vote for whether or not psychoactive substances should be prohibited or not though? The only thing I've voted for since I turned 18 was the Lisbon treaty (I voted no) but if I've had the opportunity to vote for anything since then, its news to me.

Do you not vote in local and general elections?

You are talking about constitutional votes there (Lisbon, etc). You'll never have a direct vote on drug issues since it's not specifically in the constitution.

You need to influence local and general elections with your vote, and talk to your TDs and councillors.

I also think you need to learn how government works, and how laws are passed and changed.

source

BogMonkey wrote: »

Slightly flawed logic you have there.

No it's not, you're using the example of a country that is actively trying to increase their regulation on cannabis sale, as an example for Ireland to deregulate it.

I put it to you that it is your logic that is flawed.

BogMonkey

Paulw wrote: »

I also think you need to learn how government works, and how laws are passed and changed.

Yeah its about time I started learning about all this.

foinse wrote: »

No it's not, you're using the example of a country that is actively trying to increase their regulation on cannabis sale, as an example for Ireland to deregulate it.

I put it to you that it is your logic that is flawed.

A country that still made these substances legal in the first place. Yes, they are moving towards regulation in various aspects of their drug policy but that does not nullify every step this country has ever taken. The Netherlands would still make a fine role model for Ireland.

source

BogMonkey wrote: »

A country that still made these substances legal in the first place. Yes, they are moving towards regulation in various aspects of their drug policy but that does not nullify every step this country has ever taken. The Netherlands would still make a fine role model for Ireland.

I don't see how, they've realised that the de-regulation of cannabis is having a negative effect on their country, and unfortunately they are unable to simply pull the plug, at this stage it would be akin to outlawing cigarettes here.

So they have taken a small step in the right direction by making the regulations on sale much more strict and stopping drugs tourism.

I cannot see how you would think a country that has realised the negative impact de-regulation of cannabis has had on it, is a good role model for Ireland to follow suit, and increase our own public order problems of which we already have many thanks to our over fondness of alcohol.