Are people afraid of structural engineers?

FesterBeatty

Perhaps nobody understands what we do?! The lack of appreciation for our profession seriously frustrates me! It seems that every online forum has people asking what size beam they should use, what size foundation should they use etc, which not only undermines our profession but is also dangerous! Sofar this year I've already undertaken remedial works to 3No. simple domestic extensions where the builder's 'aul RSJ....:mad:' was dangerously undersized and caused significant damage to the existing finishes & structure. A builder will think nothing of removing a critical shear wall and the client believes that its all ok because the builder said so.

I once told an ex girlfriends parents that I was an engineer and she asked if I'd have a look at her washing machine - seriously!! The lack of respect/understanding/appreciation for the engineering profession is dangerous, worrying and quite simply annoying - so if anyone ever asks you what engineers do, please give them a comprehensive response and try to raise the profile of us poor engineers!

Rant over!!:rolleyes:

Dardania

You're in the right place to get some understanding of engineers;-)

It is scary when you go out and see the dangerous stuff less knowledgeable types have done - I'm elec, and am still shuddering after seeing a 100m run of 6 sq SWA single phase feeding 3 prefab classrooms, with a total of 18kW of instantaneous electrical heating hanging off it in addition to PCs, projectors etc. ...

and what's worse there's a belief that if it worked from them in the past (i.e. "it was grand") it must be fine to do

I really think as an industry we need to re-inforce in the public eye that we are professionals, and that technicians have no claim on the description "engineer" unless they've got their diploma/degree

Maybe we need stronger representation from EI? Adopt :

Engr: Dardania as our names instead of Mr., just like Dr. ?

To answer your thread title though - maybe people are afraid of the cost? Could it be clearer? Maybe a gocompare.com for engineers?

FesterBeatty

That's exactly it. I know EI try to do their bit, but the reality is, people dont understand what Engineers do. And as a result they are reluctant to pay (and justify) our fees. It amazes me that people will give a builder 50k to build and extension but won't pay an engineer 800 to ensure that it's done right! And therein lies the problem, you pay the builder and you get an extension, pay the engineer and all you get - in the clients eyes - is a set of calculations which the engineer keeps to himself....however, you also get a structure which stands up by design, and not by luck as most domestic structures unfortunately do! If more buildings fell down us engineers would be much richer men! However, i just wish EI/ACEI/IStructE etc would do a bit more to raise the profile of the engineer.

The cost is the cost, and in my view you pay for your engineer whether you hire him or not. Pay a few quid now and get the right answer, or let the builder carry on without an engineer and wonder why the walls are cracked in 5 years time. So if people don't want to pay then fine, I have no time to argue with people like that an am not that desperate for work.

I know where you're coming from though with the gocompare type thing, however I have a feeling that it would not only cripple engineer's already low fees but might also go against EI's code of ethics?

It's funny though, more people in the UK have a much greater appreciation for engineers - wonder why that is..

Anyway, I'm off to fix some washing machines...:rolleyes:

Turbulent Bill

There's been lots of discussion here on EI's poor public promotion of engineers' value, so I won't beat that drum again.

Even with public awareness that engineers are essential to making things safe and useable, I think lots of people would still take a chance and not get things checked ("It'll never happen to me..."). In that case you either need legislation (or insurance clauses) requiring an engineer's sign-off on works.

FesterBeatty

.

dan_d

Sheesh. I beat this drum a lot!!

We don't do ourselves any favours as a profession in this country. Anyone can call themselves an engineer. That's problem number one. The UK is regulated. Canada is regulated. Europe is regulated. If you don't have the letters after your name to back it up, then you don't call yourself an engineer.

And haven't you noticed that the only time engineers are mentioned is when something is wrong? Bridge collapse/roof collapse/oilwell explosion/planes driving into towers...the engineers are working on a solution/why didn't the engineers design it properly? Not good for the aul publicity!

In conclusion? I agree...but we don't do ourselves any favours.

ftnbase

dan_d wrote: »

.but we don't do ourselves any favours.

I agree completely - I work with consulting engineers/architects who represent layperson clients for significant building projects and I find their (i.e. the engineers/architects) level of knowledge of issues such as Health and Safety, Procurement and Contract law to be, at best, weak. For simple projects - small school extension - we need to have 4 professions (architect, structural engineer, mechanical/electrical engineer and qs). In Civil Engineering all services (including qs) are provided in house by one firm. Maybe that is the direction building designers need to go.

For too many years the relationship between the architect/engineer/contractor saw a lot of "mistakes" covered up by using pc sums/amending specifications without the knowledge of the client - we are not all as professional and competent as some people suggest in this thread.

Ninja101

OP if you're serious about this why not get active in EI/IStructE or lobby them to protect the title "engineer". I'm sure if there was some financial incentive EI would be in there like a shot..hmmmm...attn: EI, why not rip off your members even more for doing nothing by doing this and using it as an excuse to raise fees.

CatFromHue

in answer to the op's question...yes you are a scary lot ;-)

only messing but in all honesty the division bewteen what a civil and structural engineer does is something i struggle with.

i'm a mech/aero engineer myself and so the whole building/construction area is fairly different than my area of expertise and what i studied in college.

it does happen to me that when i tell people that im an engineer that they then start talking about buildings and then have no clue when i tell them thats not the type of engineer i am, and what i actually do.

its not worth stressing over though, the term engineer encompasses a very very broad area so people not familar with engineering and bound to get confused.

as for engineers ireland im not sure what they do either, i did have a student membership in college but the magazine they sent out mainly covered construction projects which i have no interest in.

i havent had a full membership but if i go travelling or on a working visa to canada i'll have to take one out. mainly so that i'll be able to say im a member of an engineering body which will mean more to any potential employer than to me.

Turbulent Bill

dan_d wrote: »

Sheesh. I beat this drum a lot!!

We don't do ourselves any favours as a profession in this country. Anyone can call themselves an engineer. That's problem number one. The UK is regulated. Canada is regulated. Europe is regulated. If you don't have the letters after your name to back it up, then you don't call yourself an engineer.

And haven't you noticed that the only time engineers are mentioned is when something is wrong? Bridge collapse/roof collapse/oilwell explosion/planes driving into towers...the engineers are working on a solution/why didn't the engineers design it properly? Not good for the aul publicity!

In conclusion? I agree...but we don't do ourselves any favours.

Ireland is supposedly regulated by EI too, but only at CEng level - anyone can call themselves "engineer", but call yourself a "chartered engineer" and EI send out the dogs! For many people (including myself) chartership would be nice-to-have but would have no value in my industry - it's far down the list in terms of professional development.

The bad news thing does bug me though. The BP oilwell explosion looks like it was caused by ignored safety warnings from technical teams and poor management. The World Trade Centre was designed to take the impact of a Boeing 707 coming in to land (slow, low fuel), not a full 767 impacting at high speed - there's only so much you can design for.

allybar

The problem is that the cost of the engineer is nearly more than rebuilding the house if it fell down and really apart from multiplying a guess by 1.4 you dont do much more to size a beam.

I am an engineer and work on site but needed to get some work i was doing signed off. I never told the engineers calling that i was trained myself and to say they were trying to shaft me was an uderstatement. Ye are so starved now you are worse than any developers and sadly so tremendously up your own a**es you cant get over yourselves enough to see you are over charging.

Can you tell me why a letter ahould cost €4000 when your indemnity insurance for the year is less than that? ye should call yourself ivor and claim expenses.

dan_d

Actually allybar, I'm a site engineer aswell.(or at least I was until recently)

Doesn't change my opinion.

FesterBeatty

allybar wrote: »

The problem is that the cost of the engineer is nearly more than rebuilding the house if it fell down and really apart from multiplying a guess by 1.4 you dont do much more to size a beam.
.

Multiplying a guess by 1.4...And you say you're an engineer? Time to go back to college or throw in the towel mate!

This is what I'm talking about!:rolleyes:

Fees cover design time, drawing time, meetings with the architect which can run for months, even years before a job gets to site, site meetings, design team meetings, site attendances, inspections, insurance/level of risk, certification etc etc etc...

If the cracks start to show in any of your 'guesses' give me a shout and I'll put out the fire - might cost you more than 4k though!

irjudge

allybar wrote: »

The problem is that the cost of the engineer is nearly more than rebuilding the house if it fell down and really apart from multiplying a guess by 1.4 you dont do much more to size a beam.

I think thats a wee bit of an exaggeration. Multiplying a guess? Where I went to college we were expected to deal with facts, part of the whole scientific method of engineering design.

allybar wrote: »

I am an engineer and work on site but needed to get some work i was doing signed off. I never told the engineers calling that i was trained myself and to say they were trying to shaft me was an uderstatement. Ye are so starved now you are worse than any developers and sadly so tremendously up your own a**es you cant get over yourselves enough to see you are over charging.

Yeah as with all professions there are those who instead of being assertive and confident are arrogant and obnoxious. And there are also those who are overcharging in the current climate, however try shopping around and you'll get value for money, just don't mistake cheap for value.

allybar wrote: »

Can you tell me why a letter ahould cost €4000 when your indemnity insurance for the year is less than that? ye should call yourself ivor and claim expenses.

A letter shouldn't cost €4,000, however design work, inspections. meetings etc resulting in a letter confirming compliance could certainly cost €4,000.

Ninja101

http://engineersjournal.ie/issues/october-2010/articles/regulation/

Awesome. Now EI get some building control in this country, before some building collapses.

motthomas

CatFromHue wrote: »

i'm a mech/aero engineer myself and so the whole building/construction area is fairly different than my area of expertise and what i studied in college.

as for engineers ireland im not sure what they do either, i did have a student membership in college but the magazine they sent out mainly covered construction projects which i have no interest in.

Have to agree with you there. Im the same, did Aero Eng. I still have the years membership EI give you after leaving college. All Im seeing in the magazines is articles about construction projects and nominations for awards which again are all construction projects. It annoys me in these times when the construction industry has gone down the swanny it looks like EI are still trying to hang onto what they had before. It looks to me like they arent willing to move on from the boom times. I mean the biomedical engineering industry is huge in Ireland and the Aerospace sector is growing again with Eirtech and Dublin Aerospace but EI dont seem to care about them.

Though I can see where FesterBeatty is coming from, from where I'm standing it looks like civil/structural engineering are the branches which are most heavily regulated in Ireland. (Then again no-one can walk into Shannon Aerospace or Boston Scientific and pretend they know what they are talking about).

dan_d

Probably to with the fact that civil/mechanical were the initial main types of engineering. EI doesn't seem to have moved on from that fact, even though it's yours since that was the case.

sarahmurphy

Hey can any of you help me? I'm looking for an accredited structural engineer in central dublin to look at some cracks in an old house and let me know if I just need to fill them and keep an eye on them or if work needs to be done now, thank you

Mr.Plough

I've had this same conversation probably a dozen times.

"Oh your studying engineering, so you'll build bridges and stuff"

"Mechanical Engineering"

"Oh so fixing cars and stuff?"


ijgdsafhaosdhj

shanered

I always describe it as a doctor for buildings instead of a doctor for bodies!
The general public doesn't have a clue to be honest when it comes to specializations whiten engineering, they barely know what if the even know if something needs to be fixed so they ignore structural engineers for the most part.
Better standards and regulations requiring structural engineers should be made so as to ensure that buildings like priory hall fiasco do not end up on the market.

con1982

The comment below seems to link standards in structural engineering to the problems at Priory Hall.

Engineers are only people, and can be good and bad like everyone else.

A properly inforced building control with inspections by the local authority and mandatory submission of calculations (UK style) would be sufficient. I've been working in structural design for eight years, and I've yet to meet a local authority building inspector.

shanered wrote: »

I always describe it as a doctor for buildings instead of a doctor for bodies!
The general public doesn't have a clue to be honest when it comes to specializations whiten engineering, they barely know what if the even know if something needs to be fixed so they ignore structural engineers for the most part.
Better standards and regulations requiring structural engineers should be made so as to ensure that buildings like priory hall fiasco do not end up on the market.

Irish_Elect_Eng

en·gi·neer (nj-nîr)
n.
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
2. One who operates an engine.
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
tr.v. en·gi·neered, en·gi·neer·ing, en·gi·neers
1. To plan, construct, or manage as an engineer.
2. To alter or produce by methods of genetic engineering: "Researchers . . . compared insulin manufactured by bacteria genetically engineered with recombinant DNA techniques to the commercial insulin obtained from swine or cattle" (Fusion).
3. To plan, manage, and put through by skillful acts or contrivance; maneuver.


Being an engineer is so much more a state of mind than a job description or even a qualification. As a Engineering manager that has worked up the grades from technician to Principal Engineer, I have seen experienced technicians with a professional engineering mindset and engineers with the mindset only suited to a McJob.

Yes,many people misunderstand what we do for a living, but can you really blame them, there are so many different types of engineers that you cannot really expect those without a familiarity with your industry to understand what you do for a living. Even Engineers with the same title have vastly different roles in different industries. For Example: An Electrical Engineer working in the construction industry would be lost in the medical device design sector and vice-versa.

If you wanted people to understand what you do, then you picked the wrong career


Many Engineers associated with the building industry suffer from the general public belief that builders are chancers, whether true or not. There is not a lot of separation in peoples minds from those frauds scamming tarmac jobs ant those professionals designing a new bridge. It is just not important enough in the life of the average person to make any definition. It is up to you as an engineer to educate your social circle one person at a time.


As Irish Engineers we are not trained to publicize our achievements, our victories and our miracles. I have been lucky enough to work with a mentor that facilitated me in gaining recognition for the work that I did and I try to pass this on to the engineers that work for me. "Nobody has ever received praise for unknown work". When you save the day, let everyone the benefits smell the bacon. If you spent all weekend calculating, designing, simulating to save the day then LET THEM KNOW. (In a professional way)

People love engineers without even knowing it.

When:

• They can get to Galway from Dublin in two hours, they love engineers.
• (But thank the Politicians)
• When the plane lands without the wings falling off, they love engineers.
• (But thank the Pilot)
• When the milk stays fresh in the carton, they love engineers.
• (But thank the Farmer)
• When a stent saves their loved ones live they love engineers
• (But thank the doctor)

If you wanted the praise in public, the you are in the wrong career :mad:

• But for me it is enough to know that I did the work....
• But for me it is enough to know that I did the work to the best of my ability....
• But for me it is enough to know that I did the work Safely....
• But for me it is enough to know that I did the work to budget....
• But for me it is enough to know that I did the work to specification....

.....I am the Engineer.

bnt

con1982 wrote: »

The comment below seems to link standards in structural engineering to the problems at Priory Hall.

Well, that commenter has the wrong end of the stick, since the problems at Priory Hall were not Structural in nature, they were failures in fire safety (article). Which is not to be interpreted as a deflection of responsibility, since everyone on site has a responsibility to watch each other: "if you see something, say something". But fire safety is a specialism in its own right.

I think we need to remind people that buildings are only one field of structural engineering. The field covers a much wider area, and can include furniture, bridges, aircraft wings, tents - basically, anything that is not supposed to fall down! The chair on which your bum is currently parked is a structure. :cool:

breadmonkey

Somone told me the other day that since almost all buildings are privately owned, they don't require a Cat III check. Is this true?

Daniel S

Mr.Plough wrote: »

I've had this same conversation probably a dozen times.

"Oh your studying engineering, so you'll build bridges and stuff"

"Mechanical Engineering"

"Oh so fixing cars and stuff?"


ijgdsafhaosdhj

Jesus, the amount of times I've gotten that and I'm only a student!

(but I actually do fix/build cars when I get the chance).


Other things that annoy me to no end:
Domestic engineer - A stay at home dad
Sanitary/Waste removal engineer - Binman
Water engineer - Plumber

This sums it up nicely:

http://www.bull****job.com/title/

You're going to have to edit the above link if you want to see it :P

Ninja101

Who cares what the plebs think, seriously. We rule the world. Us and scientists. The world would be fukced without us. We get things done. We labour quietly, and only care about solving problems...

Consider this...9/10 of China's Standing-Politburu Commitee are trained engineers....

Daniel S

Daniel S wrote: »

Jesus, the amount of times I've gotten that and I'm only a student!

(but I actually do fix/build cars when I get the chance).


Other things that annoy me to no end:
Domestic engineer - A stay at home dad
Sanitary/Waste removal engineer - Binman
Water engineer - Plumber

This sums it up nicely:

http://www.bull****job.com/title/

You're going to have to edit the above link if you want to see it :P

I rang eircom before and a lovley lady intorduced herself as a "help desk engineer"