Practice in Galway of buying or Selling jobs?

Dr McManus

Recently I heard of a practice which exists in Galway of buying and selling jobs.
An Eastern European friend of mine paid 300 Euro for her job working as a Chef in a hotel. Then when she found another job, she sold her job for 300 Euro. Her Manager pocketed the money, and she was given a no questions asked interview guaranteeing she got the job in return. Apparently this practice is common place. It is something which Eastern Europeans introduced to Ireland during the Celtic Tiger Economy boom years. Now during the recession the practice still remains, as jobs are in short supply, more people are willing to buy and sell their jobs. Has anyone else heard of this happening in Galway?

Xiney

Never heard of it. Then again maybe that explains why I applied for jobs for nearly a year without any kind of luck.

Mr.Mister

Don't Ryanair do something similar for the pilots they recruit? But the pilots get the fee back at the end.

Or maybe eastern european friend went to a private recruitment agency where they charge a fee?

Maja

I've heard about this few times, but it isnt as common as you may think. Never knew anybody "buying or selling" and if i would i would tell them what i think about it. That is nasty and the first to blame are those who take the money in the end. (who employ?)

andydrew

Hi all,
With reference to buying Jobs,
Firstly I am a Galway native and have 20 years experience in the hotel and Restaurant Industry. I have seen this practice in operation with very positive results for all parties concerned. Basically it works like this, in a restaurant situation for example...
the staff negotiate with the employer that the service charge is removed from the bill and/or paid by check directly to the employee,s...
the staff pay the Taxes etc and then the balance is distributed between the staff on a hierarchy basis... new waiter just in the door ie. bottom of the pile or a waiter (same job) working 20 years ie top of the pile etc... the more tips made the more the staff earn... tips are a % of sales so house is a winner... the incentive to stay for a long time in the job is increased therefore the standard of service is better = happy customers and so on...

Ok ... so if you are working in a successful well established and high footfall restaurant your doing well and people will pay to work there...Bit like paying to play for man utd.

It s a bloody brilliant system, and next time your on holidays you will see it in opperation in France Italy Spain and yes probablly eastern europe... I think your "eastern europe" is thinly vailed racism for the record...

Last point (Sorry) ...
The apprentichip-trainee system we seem to love as Irish is no more than insevitude slavery, it is discusting abuse of young people, it is an enefficient system that produces a marginal diminishing returns to all parties but feeds the Irish desire to relish looking down their nose at those in the service industry... trust me that waiter in France is looking down his nose at you as he s making more money than most of us dream of... but if his workmates catch him they will have him out the door ... Money talks and bull**** walks !!!
Sorry I feel strongly about this and find it hard to take how Galway/Ireland hospitality is in the shambles it is in because we pumped out "Managers!!!" that created "Models" based on the Henry Ford idea ! a one size fits all and maximise profits in the short run screw the future and the customer... Its no accident that most Hotels are owned by builders...

I used to earn £80 000 p/a as a head waiter abroad at 25 and now am lucky to earn 30 000 euro at 40 as a senior hotel manager in Ireland ... 80 hrs a week and I sweat for every cent !!! ANYONE WANT TO BUY MY JOB ???

Xiney

meh.

My sister's boyfriend graduated college in May and (horror of horrors) it took him a couple of months to find a job.

His wage? 40k. FML.

Oh, and that goes up to 45k in three months.


It's not just hotel managers et al that are on **** wages in this country. Seems everyone but the consultants and politicians are.

Dr McManus

andydrew wrote: »

Hi all,
With reference to buying Jobs,
Firstly I am a Galway native and have 20 years experience in the hotel and Restaurant Industry. I have seen this practice in operation with very positive results for all parties concerned. Basically it works like this, in a restaurant situation for example...
the staff negotiate with the employer that the service charge is removed from the bill and/or paid by check directly to the employee,s...
the staff pay the Taxes etc and then the balance is distributed between the staff on a hierarchy basis... new waiter just in the door ie. bottom of the pile or a waiter (same job) working 20 years ie top of the pile etc... the more tips made the more the staff earn... tips are a % of sales so house is a winner... the incentive to stay for a long time in the job is increased therefore the standard of service is better = happy customers and so on...

Ok ... so if you are working in a successful well established and high footfall restaurant your doing well and people will pay to work there...Bit like paying to play for man utd.

It s a bloody brilliant system, and next time your on holidays you will see it in opperation in France Italy Spain and yes probablly eastern europe... I think your "eastern europe" is thinly vailed racism for the record...

Last point (Sorry) ...
The apprentichip-trainee system we seem to love as Irish is no more than insevitude slavery, it is discusting abuse of young people, it is an enefficient system that produces a marginal diminishing returns to all parties but feeds the Irish desire to relish looking down their nose at those in the service industry... trust me that waiter in France is looking down his nose at you as he s making more money than most of us dream of... but if his workmates catch him they will have him out the door ... Money talks and bull**** walks !!!
Sorry I feel strongly about this and find it hard to take how Galway/Ireland hospitality is in the shambles it is in because we pumped out "Managers!!!" that created "Models" based on the Henry Ford idea ! a one size fits all and maximise profits in the short run screw the future and the customer... Its no accident that most Hotels are owned by builders...

I used to earn £80 000 p/a as a head waiter abroad at 25 and now am lucky to earn 30 000 euro at 40 as a senior hotel manager in Ireland ... 80 hrs a week and I sweat for every cent !!! ANYONE WANT TO BUY MY JOB ???

Eastern Europe thinly veiled (not spelt vailed) racism?
Read my post again; I said my Eastern European FRIEND.
For the record; my wife is Eastern European.

RuthieRose

This is common place in the alot of service industries. Espically the large ones where it can go unnoticed.
It has its good points as Andydrew pointed out but also has some very bad points for a manager which I have come across.
1. All your staff could end up being related or linked in some way which means they will all cover for eachother (wouldn't you!) when there is any trouble eliminating any element of trust between staff and management.
2. It gives people a very unfair advantage in the interview process. I know of staff who has just got off a plane being given a job that a very capable Irish citizen (he's originally polish) got turned down for because the guy off the plane had bought the job and the polish guy couldn't afford it and didn't really know the person who offered to sell him the job.
3. Its against company policy and employment law as far as I'm aware for the same reason as above.
4. It can lead to bullying if the person does not preform well or the family have a fight then your F***ed as no work gets done.
5. You can end up with some useless bugger who is protected by our very strong employee rights. Then you can't get rid of him.

I don't agree with it and I have seen it first hand. BAD BAD idea if the country's laws are not already geared towards it.

Dr McManus

It is corruption.
Applicants should get a job based on; qualifications, experience, and suitability.
You should not be able to purchase a job, or interview.
In doing so, you are denying someone who has the appropriate; qualifications, experience, and suitability, the opportunity of employment.
This corrupt practice of buying jobs, means that you may have someone doing a job badly due to their lack of qualifications and experience.
It undermines the validity of the recruitment process, and the worth of qualifications attained.
It had been commonplace pre Celtic Tiger Economy boom years for Irish firms to give preference in recruiting to Irish applicants. Vouching for a friend, or putting a good word in for them is nothing new. However, since the Celtic Tiger Economy ended, there appears to be more cases of people selling jobs. The recession has meant that more people are willing to pay for a job, even though it goes against their morals.
This corrupt practice may have been popularised during the Celtic Tiger Economy by Eastern Europeans, but it is rife in Irish firms. Human Resources Managers are no stranger to back handers when it comes to hiring. I have heard this occurs in senior jobs, not just in minimum wage, temporary, part time work. It is worrying to think that the person you are dealing with, may not have got their job on merit; they may have simply bought their way into their job.

andydrew

Dr McManus wrote: »

Eastern Europe thinly veiled (not spelt vailed) racism?
Read my post again; I said my Eastern European FRIEND.
For the record; my wife is Eastern European.

Sir,
On reflection "Racism" was probably a bit strong, you are probably guilty of making a negative generalization at worst, I m sure your wife will tell you many stories of how the chef/waiter/barman ended up buying the establishment they worked in , in Ireland a hospitality employee would be doing well to afford to eat in their establishment. The result is apathy, zero employment utility and a high staff turnover...
You correcting my spelling is (i feel) pedantic as this is an opinion forum and not a spelling test, you refer to yourself as "Dr" I would assume this refer s to an academic background ... I answered your post as I believe that its academia (i.e. Hotel and catering management degrees) that is at the heart of the problem and was hoping for intelligent, informed constructive feedback .
Also it has been my experience, when living abroad that it is most patronizing that my nationality is defined as "British" or "Western European". I m sure your "wife" would agree... or maybe not...

andydrew

RuthieRose wrote: »

This is common place in the alot of service industries. Espically the large ones where it can go unnoticed.
It has its good points as Andydrew pointed out but also has some very bad points for a manager which I have come across.
1. All your staff could end up being related or linked in some way which means they will all cover for eachother (wouldn't you!) when there is any trouble eliminating any element of trust between staff and management.
2. It gives people a very unfair advantage in the interview process. I know of staff who has just got off a plane being given a job that a very capable Irish citizen (he's originally polish) got turned down for because the guy off the plane had bought the job and the polish guy couldn't afford it and didn't really know the person who offered to sell him the job.
3. Its against company policy and employment law as far as I'm aware for the same reason as above.
4. It can lead to bullying if the person does not preform well or the family have a fight then your F***ed as no work gets done.
5. You can end up with some useless bugger who is protected by our very strong employee rights. Then you can't get rid of him.

I don't agree with it and I have seen it first hand. BAD BAD idea if the country's laws are not already geared towards it.

Hi Ruthy Ruth,
You have hit the nail on the head, all your points are completely valid and I have encountered them all. The system is really only effective in the hospitality industry and brings many challenges for the management... This is a skill/knowledge and experience based industry ... I have so many times interviewed so many that have "learned" excellent interview skills (usually in college) but didn't last one day on the job totally wrong skill set and totally incapable of being able to transfer skills or communicate...

The core objective of this industry is to create wealth / turnover / sales and repeat business... a super motivated workforce is essential for this... all other issues are Managerial and I have seen often that the staff can overthrow weak management, there are very few "agency problems" in this environment , its one of the few times when the workers and the owners work hand in hand at the expense of poor management .

In the states the "HAVE A NICE DAY" thing is sometimes grating but so much better than the "HAVING A **** DAY" attitude we have in this country .

andydrew

Xiney wrote: »

meh.

My sister's boyfriend graduated college in May and (horror of horrors) it took him a couple of months to find a job.

His wage? 40k. FML.

Oh, and that goes up to 45k in three months.


It's not just hotel managers et al that are on **** wages in this country. Seems everyone but the consultants and politicians are.

Indeed you are wise !!! But I fear "the times they are a changing "!!!

Wompa1

What is the motivation to work hard? If that system was in place I'd work just hard enough to get by. Then breeze through...the longer I'm there doing an average job the more money I make whilst young people come in to work for a couple of years and break their balls for less money. It sounds good on some levels but not so much if you have a work ethic!

biko

Paying the employer to get a job is to me corruption.
It was bribery in the first place and should have been stomped out immediately.
Haven't people learned anything from Bertie and the gang?

clived2

Jesus, this is the first I heard of this,

My first question, does the owner of the business always know this is going
on?

Galwayps

After working in nightclubs in Canada and US, I have seen this system in place and overall seems to work. Barstaff in clubs have to pay for their spot but they make it back (and plenty more) in tips
If there is a place where the owner or operator has put in place an environment where you are going to be well rewarded for your work I see no problem with it. The quality of the candidate is also stilll the main priority with the buy in just a part of the job description

Mrs OBumble

biko wrote: »

Paying the employer to get a job is to me corruption.
It was bribery in the first place and should have been stomped out immediately.
Haven't people learned anything from Bertie and the gang?

I've been pondering this thread overnight, and that's pretty much what I was going to say.

What was described isn't about buying a job, it's about bribing the manager to take you instead of someone else. It means that an unsuitable gombeen who's got the cash is more likely to get hired that a hard worker who hasn't, so I just cannot see how it produces a better workforce. In fact an unscrupulous manager would just keep hiring a succession of 'em, and then firing them again at 11 months.

I have a feeling it's actually illegal (but could be wrong, it may be back home where it's illegal for an employment agency to charge a fee to the job-seeker).

Most of andydrew's post is about the system of distributing tips - that's totally separate from how staff are appointed, can't see how it's related to the buying the job idea at all. And in this country the minimum wage is pretty high, so tipping's not needed anyway.

clived2

Galwayps wrote: »

After working in nightclubs in Canada and US, I have seen this system in place and overall seems to work. Barstaff in clubs have to pay for their spot but they make it back (and plenty more) in tips
If there is a place where the owner or operator has put in place an environment where you are going to be well rewarded for your work I see no problem with it. The quality of the candidate is also stilll the main priority with the buy in just a part of the job description

The tipping ecomomy within USA/Canada does not translate to the Irish service industry, as your tips are generally your wage, so I feel any comparsion whether it works over there or not, to here to be inadequate

Galwayps

clived2 wrote: »

The tipping ecomomy within USA/Canada does not translate to the Irish service industry, as your tips are generally your wage, so I feel any comparsion whether it works over there or not, to here to be inadequate

Thats a fair point when it comes to Nightclubs and Bars but certainly some of the higher priced Restaraunts would generate tips that would be equivalent to a fairly good percentage of you wage

clived2

Galwayps wrote: »

Thats a fair point when it comes to Nightclubs and Bars but certainly some of the higher priced Restaraunts would generate tips that would be equivalent to a fairly good percentage of you wage

I know a few managers of higher priced restaraunts, and they never had such a hiring policy, they accertain detailed references and perform extensive interviews which works very well for them,

Dr McManus

clived2 wrote: »

I know a few managers of higher priced restaraunts, and they never had such a hiring policy, they accertain detailed references and perform extensive interviews which works very well for them,

This practice does not just happen in the service (restaurant) industry.
The corruption exists within blue chip companies within the Human Resources departments. I have personally seen Irish firms take on people who do not have the relevant; qualifications, experience, and suitability, because they have paid the Human Resources Manager to turn a blind eye.
This corruption appears to have been widespread during the Celtic Tiger Economy, when the unemployment rates were low. However, now the country is in recession Human Resources managers are now more open to bribes than ever due to the labour rich market.
Its a question of supply and demand undermining morals. Where previously a job advert in the Galway Advertiser would attract 200 applicants, now it will attract 1000 applicants. Therefore people are more willing to pay to secure a job. Human Resources Managers in Galway have been known to take 1000 Euro commissions (bribes) for graduate level jobs.
The alarming thing is that there are now people working in graduate calibre jobs, without having actually attained a degree.
I am against the prevailence of such corruption; the danger being that people with a criminal record for example can bypass checks because they have bought (bribed) their way into a job.
What I would like to know is; did this corruption exist before 2007 when the influx of 10 accession states joined the EU and flooded the Irish labour market?
Or is this something that was popularised after the Celtic Tiger Economy due to rising unemployment?
It may well have been the case that some Irish firms were taking backhanders to hire no questions asked, but now this is becoming increasingly widespread; in Irish firms, and those with a predominantly non national workforce.

clived2

Dr McManus wrote: »

This practice does not just happen in the service (restaurant) industry.
.

I never said anything to the contrary

biko

Dr McManus wrote: »

What I would like to know is; did this corruption exist before 2007 when the influx of 10 accession states joined the EU and flooded the Irish labour market?
Or is this something that was popularised after the Celtic Tiger Economy due to rising unemployment?

Writing an article or a study on this are you?

Dr McManus

biko wrote: »

Writing an article or a study on this are you?

I am writing a book.
It is called Johnny Foreigner.
It is about my experiences of being part of the Irish diaspora, who have returned to Ireland after the Celtic Tiger Economy; to an Ireland in recession.

clived2

Dr McManus wrote: »

I am writing a book.
It is called Johnny Foreigner.
It is about my experiences of being part of the Irish diaspora, who have returned to Ireland after the Celtic Tiger Economy; to an Ireland in recession.

Xiney

Can I just point out that in Canada waiters and waitresses get minimum wage same as everyone as well? It's not really like the US at all in most respects... apart from the TV... we even have different accents and I can pick out an american from 20 paces.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Dr McManus wrote: »

I am writing a book.
It is called Johnny Foreigner.
It is about my experiences of being part of the Irish diaspora, who have returned to Ireland after the Celtic Tiger Economy; to an Ireland in recession.

Please don't rely on boards to provide a ready made research group.

/moderation