New boiler and tank into a flat

Buford T Justice

Hi Guys,

Here's an interesting one. Mods, i am sort of cross posting this from electrical, but this is more for the plumbing side than the electrical one

A client of mine has two flats ,Upstairs and downstairs. Downstairs had OFCH and Upstairs had storage rads. The previous tenants asked if they could install ofch upstairs, and offset the cost of this against the rent. Client said no problem and off they went.

The guy did this, and linked the flow and return for upstairs onto the boiler using the same circulating pump. He was also cute enough to remove the F&E tank from downstairs and put it upstairs so both systems are essentially one.

Now, I will be adding a new boiler and tank for upstairs to give two independent heating systems.
I'm getting a second 50/90 boiler and the guy that has it says that in the boiler housing there is also a big red ball thing (His words)(expansion tank for closed system) in it along with a circulating pump etc....

Would I be better to redo the heating downstairs and put in a closed system and leave upstairs vented, or would i be better off to put back in an F&E tanks downstairs again?

Thoughts please....

I would go with whatever is easiest, sealed system downstairs and open upstairs , all you would only have to do is isolate the two systems from each other, upstairs already has the F&E tank plumbed and filling loop for downstairs.

Buford T Justice

No filling loop downstairs as of yet. Thats why I'm wondering what would be the best scrap that, as with the client of mine, cheapest.

ntpm

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Here's an interesting one. Mods, i am sort of cross posting this from electrical, but this is more for the plumbing side than the electrical one

A client of mine has two flats ,Upstairs and downstairs. Downstairs had OFCH and Upstairs had storage rads. The previous tenants asked if they could install ofch upstairs, and offset the cost of this against the rent. Client said no problem and off they went.

The guy did this, and linked the flow and return for upstairs onto the boiler using the same circulating pump. He was also cute enough to remove the F&E tank from downstairs and put it upstairs so both systems are essentially one.

Now, I will be adding a new boiler and tank for upstairs to give two independent heating systems.
I'm getting a second 50/90 boiler and the guy that has it says that in the boiler housing there is also a big red ball thing (His words)(expansion tank for closed system) in it along with a circulating pump etc....

Would I be better to redo the heating downstairs and put in a closed system and leave upstairs vented, or would i be better off to put back in an F&E tanks downstairs again?

Thoughts please....

Pressure is going to be your deciding factor.
I would suggest that you put the new boiler which is designed for a sealed system ( red vessel) and fit it to the new rads to upstairs.
You can then pressurise it using mains pressure. This will perform much better.
Just check that the Feed and Expansion pipes were only extended and not teed into the upstairs circuit. you can then just disconnect the second set of flow and returns.
You wont have to buy another header tank or mess around with overflows and pipes in attic space.

Also you can be sure that everything in the upstairs system is leak free.


Why interfere with down stairs too much as it seems to be working at moment... remember you will take on any faults or liability for anything that may go wrong with it in the future, even if they are not your doing.... In the clients eyes you were the last one at it.

Word of advice: the boiler may be oversized if there are not that many radiators and you don't seem to be using it for hotwater either. You will have to re-rate the boiler to it's minimum duty.

Buford T Justice

ntpm wrote: »

Why interfere with down stairs too much as it seems to be working at moment... remember you will take on any faults or liability for anything that may go wrong with it in the future, even if they are not your doing.... In the clients eyes you were the last one at it.

There is no F&E Tank downstairs. It was removed, with the pipes capped and moved upstairs. The two heating systems are only linked together at the boiler currently, so when I undo the link there will be no method of filling or expansion downstairs. That's why I was going to leave upstairs with the F&E tank as is, and wondering what to do with downstairs.

ntpm wrote: »

Word of advice: the boiler may be oversized if there are not that many radiators and you don't seem to be using it for hotwater either. You will have to re-rate the boiler to it's minimum duty.

If the new boiler goes upstairs, then it will be heating the hot water as well. Its downstairs that has an under sink heater on it.
PS, what is the result of the boiler being over rated for the job, if it turns out to be before it gets turned down, so to speak

ntpm

Does sound a bit of mis-mass...
One of those jobs that has to be seen to be fully understood.
I don't think it's going straight forward.... But take each system back to basic principle.
Leaving the F&E tanks upstairs isn't a problem for servicing the down stairs circuit but ensure the F&E pipes are re-instated to down stairs boiler.
Also to consider will there be a problem for the downstairs people to gain access to tanks if they need to. If landlord owns both places it probably won't be an issue.

As far as the boiler is considered: an oversized boiler will be cutting in and out too often be inefficient. It will also stop the boiler getting too hot as an overarted boiler may not be able to transfere it's heat through the heat exhanger.
Any boiler service engineer will easily de-rate the boiler to 50,000 BTU's if needed. Combine it with a service/ re-commisioning owhen the boiler is installed and won't cost you any more.

Buford T Justice

ntpm wrote: »

Leaving the F&E tanks upstairs isn't a problem for servicing the down stairs circuit but ensure the F&E pipes are re-instated to down stairs boiler.
Also to consider will there be a problem for the downstairs people to gain access to tanks if they need to. If landlord owns both places it probably won't be an issue.

Not feasible to have the same F&E Tank to both systems unfortunately. The only link to both systems will be removed when the new boiler is installed. There is a site downstairs where the old F&E Tank was, and i'm wondering if I can just replace it, or go with a closed system

ntpm

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Not feasible to have the same F&E Tank to both systems unfortunately. The only link to both systems will be removed when the new boiler is installed. There is a site downstairs where the old F&E Tank was, and i'm wondering if I can just replace it, or go with a closed system

My earlier thread sugested that the new boiler which is a sealed system would be best suited for upstairs.
Therefore my statement regarding leaving the F&E tank upstairs but reinstate the Feed and OSV pipe to the downstairs circuit would leave both systems totally independent.

Buford T Justice

ntpm wrote: »

My earlier thread sugested that the new boiler which is a sealed system would be best suited for upstairs.
Therefore my statement regarding leaving the F&E tank upstairs but reinstate the Feed and OSV pipe to the downstairs circuit would leave both systems totally independent.

Would it not be easier to leave upstairs with the existing F&E, and just add a closed system downstairs?

Why would upstairs benefit better from a closed system as opposed to downstairs?

ntpm

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I would still prefere having the sealed system upstairs as you can pressurise it and it seems that the newer rads and cylinder is upstairs. I believe a sealed system may be more efficient regarding heat transfer to water and aid quicker recovery of the cylinder. Sealed system provides better, long term protection against corrosion etc (if flushed and cleaned and inhibitor added).
You could also incorporate cylinder stat and separate motorized valve ( if not already fitted). Bring it up to part L requirements. New boiler and controls have to installed therefore might as well make one of the systems fully efficient and complient with regs.

The older pipework and boiler is downstairs and I would prefer to keep these as the original system.

Buford T Justice

ntpm wrote: »

Bring it up to part L requirements. New boiler and controls have to installed therefore might as well make one of the systems fully efficient and complient with regs.

Where can I get more info on the current regs?

ntpm

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Where can I get more info on the current regs?

Environ.ie
Building Regs Technical Guidance Documents TDG
Part L Energy Efficiency
( Heating controls, Zone controls, insulation etc)
Part J Heat Producing Appliances
( Fuel and Flue requirements etc)

Try:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,18691,en.pdf
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,19069,en.pdf
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1650,en.pdf

Note: Part L has been updated and revised over last few years but the above will still give you the basic requirements.
As stated these are the basic standards and I always recommend additional controls or zones and TRV's. Once you can explain the benefits then clients will usually understand.