When will Ireland move on from Post-Civil War orientated Political Parties?

Kelticguy

I would love to get involved with Irish Politics on a local level but I find that it is dominated in my locality by petty "Civil War" political parties. Do you think that Ireland will ever modernise and move on from this era?

chaneyfrank

Rise and Fall of a Nation


In Dublin Streets, one Easter morn, on blood drenched stones, a dream was born,
Our heroes they fought side by side, the prize they sought - “A Nation”.
These leaders gave their lives for us, one tied to a chair,
But the seed was sown, would not be denied.
“A Nation was the Dream.”

Two brothers rose from the streets of blood, Collins and DeValera,
For many years they fought side by side, pledged to achieve that dream.
Then a chance for peace, three fields of green, a fourth denied.

The brothers chose two different paths, and Erin’s cries were heard again,
Their dreams, the same, their paths divide, The fields were soaked in blood again,
as “ Brother now fought Brother.”

Less than one hundred years have passed, the fourth green field is still enchained,
The fledgling Nation since has grown, and now at last peace reigns,
But there are those who would steal that dream, yet claim to be our leaders,
With lies, deceit, and greed, they brought our Nation to its knees,
And sold the dream, of those long forgotten hero’s,
“A Nation Free and Equal”.

Author; Frank Chaney

Pat D. Almighty

Most modern European countries have a right-left political divide. We have rotating Fianna Fail/Fine Gael governments. Right-vs-Right.
Fianna Fail & Fine Gael should just unite. There is NO difference, apart from the Civil War history.

Denerick

Their history harkens back to a civil war divide but they encompass various regional, professional and factional coalitions that are inherent in every political party on the face of the earth. There is no real difference between any party in Europe. FF and FG are two centrist parties that reflect the changing attitudes of the people at large, nothing particularly unusual or damning about them.

Jimdagym

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Most modern European countries have a right-left political divide. We have rotating Fianna Fail/Fine Gael governments. Right-vs-Right.
Fianna Fail & Fine Gael should just unite. There is NO difference, apart from the Civil War history.

No point saying they should unite. While practically, you may be right, its their members who would object the most, as they are the civil war politics believers.

Pat D. Almighty

Jimdagym wrote: »

No point saying they should unite. While practically, you may be right, its their members who would object the most, as they are the civil war politics believers.

Of course they'll object. They don't realise that they have feck all political differences.

Bog

chaneyfrank wrote: »

Rise and Fall of a Nation


In Dublin Streets, one Easter morn, on blood drenched stones, a dream was born,
Our heroes they fought side by side, the prize they sought - “A Nation”.
These leaders gave their lives for us, one tied to a chair,
But the seed was sown, would not be denied.
“A Nation was the Dream.”

Two brothers rose from the streets of blood, Collins and DeValera,
For many years they fought side by side, pledged to achieve that dream.
Then a chance for peace, three fields of green, a fourth denied.

The brothers chose two different paths, and Erin’s cries were heard again,
Their dreams, the same, their paths divide, The fields were soaked in blood again,
as “ Brother now fought Brother.”

Less than one hundred years have passed, the fourth green field is still enchained,
The fledgling Nation since has grown, and now at last peace reigns,
But there are those who would steal that dream, yet claim to be our leaders,
With lies, deceit, and greed, they brought our Nation to its knees,
And sold the dream, of those long forgotten hero’s,
“A Nation Free and Equal”.

Author; Frank Chaney

Tell Frank that Hallmark have gone over their schmaltz budget this year.

Hazlittle

A tiny minority of people vote due to civil war. The reality is that we live in a British system and its going to change until people realise that democracy doesnt suit Ireland.

Sand

It will stop when Irish people stop voting for them.

Unfortunately, Irish politics have a deep well of entitlement and me feinnism to draw upon. Right back into the 19th century, Irish politicians were elected with the mission statement of getting the most out of the Westminster budget, with little or no regard for how it would be funded. Raising the cash was the problem of HMG, not the Irish.

Thats continued up to the modern day. Now politicians are elected with the mission statement of getting the most funding for their local area out of the national budget, again with little or no regard for how it will be funded. Raising the cash is someone elses problem.

I dont think the majority of the Irish voters political awareness has matured enough to understand that whilst demands are limitless, supply is not. So the traditional right-left divide over how limited resources might be best distributed (the left favouring redistribution of existing supply, the right favouring growth and individual responsibility) has never arisen. Its just a question of which TD is best at getting spending in their local area. Any other concerns are minimal, so seemingly unimportant divides like civil war politics become relatively vital.

Denerick

frostj wrote: »

NEVER! The way they go here i doubt it tbh, always running one side down. They are too interested in republicansism anyway i think they should be changing attitudes and concentrate on something else tbh, they have got their "freedom" they don't need to be bothered anymore.

That makes no sense at all. Its barely legible. Please restate in an intelligible manner what you are attempting to say.

Kelticguy

Well, there is obviously some out there who appear to be equally disenchanted with the political hierarchy and organisation in Ireland.
It's just a shame that there are not more that are willing to questions the wisdom of their parents/grandparents philosophies....

Dob74

Kelticguy wrote: »

I would love to get involved with Irish Politics on a local level but I find that it is dominated in my locality by petty "Civil War" political parties. Do you think that Ireland will ever modernise and move on from this era?

When Labour become bigger than FF or FG, there is a slim chance it may happen after the next election.

Revolution9

Hopefully one day Labour can get in without needing FG or FF to give them a leg up. With FF and FG both in opposition surely one of the parties will give itself a political make over

Fluffybums

When people use the ballot box and vote for independent candidates rather than FF or FG. When people stop saying things like "his dad(replace with assorted relative) was a great man/woman" Judge the person in front of you and their actions. When people vote for TDs to changes/run things on a national level and not to get passports/new road some other favour or local need, ie when the electorate realise that if the country does well then so does the locality. When the law is seen to apply to everyone, political friends and foes and man in the street alike. When receiving a 'dig out' is described as unethical and unacceptable behaviour and the receiver does the decent thing and resigns or the party does the right thing and boots the receiver out. Sadly I think we have a long way to go.

ISAW

Fluffybums wrote: »

When people use the ballot box and vote for independent candidates rather than FF or FG.

That would be a disaster. A house of independents would be exactly the "some favour needed" type politician you rebuke for putting local or single issues first. In any case even if only independents or a single party was elected they would soon break into factions.

When the law is seen to apply to everyone, political friends and foes and man in the street alike.

If you think the law does not apply to everyone you have contempt for the court system and jurisprudence.

When receiving a 'dig out' is described as unethical and unacceptable behaviour and the receiver does the decent thing and resigns or the party does the right thing and boots the receiver out. Sadly I think we have a long way to go.

Why should ANY political grouping not be allowed to get donations as long as they are declared?

View

ISAW wrote: »

Fluffybums wrote: »

When the law is seen to apply to everyone, political friends and foes and man in the street alike.

If you think the law does not apply to everyone you have contempt for the court system and jurisprudence.

Decisions to prosecute individuals or not are made by the DPP.

Hence, we are reliant on the independence of the DPP to ensure that political friends and foes are prosecuted or not as the case maybe.

Can we really say the various DPPs have sought to rein in political and/or business corruption in this state by pursuing prosecutions where possible?

I'd love if the answer to that was yes, but I suspect that a lot of issues get brushed aside as "honest mistakes" that should warrant prosecutions.

ISAW

View wrote: »

Decisions to prosecute individuals or not are made by the DPP.

Wrong! You refer to CRIMINAL law which is only a minority of law.

Hence, we are reliant on the independence of the DPP to ensure that political friends and foes are prosecuted or not as the case maybe.

Hence your argument is groundless since most cases wont come before the DPP. furthermore you now not only have contempt for all judges and courts but you extend this to civil servants such as the DPP? Isuppose the police and the Army are also involved in this conspiracy theory of yours?

Can we really say the various DPPs have sought to rein in political and/or business corruption in this state by pursuing prosecutions where possible?

I would guess we CAN but that is a different point anyway. the general point was that Ireland is a terrible place and the court system isnt to be trusted. You take a MINORITY of court cases and suggest that because a minority of them might be influenced by favouritism that the whole system is corrupt! One can not argue from the particular to the general!

I'd love if the answer to that was yes, but I suspect that a lot of issues get brushed aside as "honest mistakes" that should warrant prosecutions.

Id love if you could actually provide evidence instead of unsupported opinion which make sweeping generalisations.

Dob74

ISAW wrote: »

Wrong! You refer to CRIMINAL law which is only a minority of law.


Hence your argument is groundless since most cases wont come before the DPP. furthermore you now not only have contempt for all judges and courts but you extend this to civil servants such as the DPP? Isuppose the police and the Army are also involved in this conspiracy theory of yours?



I would guess we CAN but that is a different point anyway. the general point was that Ireland is a terrible place and the court system isnt to be trusted. You take a MINORITY of court cases and suggest that because a minority of them might be influenced by favouritism that the whole system is corrupt! One can not argue from the particular to the general!


Id love if you could actually provide evidence instead of unsupported opinion which make sweeping generalisations.

All DPP's, senior Gardai and judges are appointed by the government of the day. So there idealogy would be in line with the type of idiots that want to give billions to Anglo and let the taxpayers pay with no complaints.
Having a Laissez faire economic policy is fine, but you must follow through on it and let the great and the good get burned when they make a mess of the situation.

ISAW

View wrote: »

Decisions to prosecute individuals or not are made by the DPP.

ill state it again in case you dint notice it.

http://www.dppireland.ie/

The Constitution of Ireland provides that crimes and offences are to be prosecuted in the name of the People. The Prosecution of Offences Act, 1974, established the office of Director of Public Prosecutions as an independent office.

Note the word "crimes" NON CRIMINAL Law does not enter into the issue. Criminal Law is a small subset of law.

This argument isnt sufficient to prove the case being made!

Hence, we are reliant on the independence of the DPP to ensure that political friends and foes are prosecuted or not as the case maybe.

And the indepoendence of the army or Gardai to apprehend or prevent crime. Maybe you think they also protect their friends? Just how far do you extend your conspiracy theory? Or is it only the criminal courts system that is corrupt in your view?

ISAW

Dob74 wrote: »

All DPP's, senior Gardai and judges are appointed by the government of the day. So there idealogy would be in line with the type of idiots that want to give billions to Anglo and let the taxpayers pay with no complaints.

The point about appointment meaning bias isn't proven but the premise on which it is based isnt proven either i.e. that the current government arr all "idiots that want to give billions to Anglo and let the taxpayers pay with no complaints."

Having a Laissez faire economic policy is fine, but you must follow through on it and let the great and the good get burned when they make a mess of the situation.

you are jumping off topic. the point was about the court system being wrong in Ireland and not about management of the economy.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If Labour/Sinn Fein/Independents managed to form a government and last more than 2 years I think it is possible there may be a FF/FG merger

imme

Ireland has had the same big parties since the 1910's, 1920's and 1930's.
Labour 1912; Fianna Fail 1926; Fine Gael 1933.

The UK has had the same big parties since the 19th and 20th centuries, Tory Party 1812; British Labour Party 1900, although Labour didn't become one of the big two until the 1920's.

The US has had the same two big parties since before the Civil War, The Republican Party 1854, The Democratic Party 1828.

Finland has had three big parties for the last 100-years.


Yes, we have two big parties that are the result of the Civil War, but things can change.

From '82 to '97 there were only a couple of years where Labour was not in power, either with FG or FF. It looked like Labour would more than likely be in power with one or either FF or FG.

From '97 to '08 the PD's looked like they were unsinkable even given their small number of TD's, they looked they could be around forever.

So, things can change, either you can get involved with an existing party or join an effort to start a new one. Or you could get involved in some other form of advocacy or action.

Politics per se isn't the only tool available to effect change in society.

Pat D. Almighty

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If Labour/Sinn Fein/Independents managed to form a government and last more than 2 years I think it is possible there may be a FF/FG merger

What a dream come true

woodchopper

Im afraid this 'civil war' politics will remain for quite a long time to come. The lack of clear ideological party cleavages within the political system makes the prospect christian democrats, centralist, liberalist parties in Irish politics extremely unlikely. In any case the two big boys are pretty much centre right anyway so the prospect of another central right party coming to the fore of Irish politics will not happen. The only hope is for a rise in leftest politics namely the socialists gaining widespread support among the urban areas such as Dublin, Limerick and Cork. Indeed they are putting candiates up for election in these areas yet only Joe Higgins stands a chance of been elected. Perhaps if the budget is far worse than anticipated perhaps then we may have our own December Revolution with the overthrow of Fianna Fail with a new Socialist Government who perhaps may abolish irish soverneighty into the hands of the IMF. Unlikely i would say

Grafton_st

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Most modern European countries have a right-left political divide. We have rotating Fianna Fail/Fine Gael governments. Right-vs-Right.
Fianna Fail & Fine Gael should just unite. There is NO difference, apart from the Civil War history.

Think that should probably read Left v Left. A brand of left wing politics that makes our public sector the best paid in the world, while €20 billion a year is borrowed in our name to keep this new aristocracy in the style they have become accoustomed.

SWoods5000

I admire the American political system. In reality, let's face it, there is no such thing as centre politics. You're either right or left, be it moderate or extreme, you'll still always be right or left. That's why these silly Civil War parties irritate me so much. Fine Gael and Finna Fail should merge as should Labour and Sinn Féin (the Socialists will always be on the fringes).

At least if that happened we would have a REAL democracy in that the "Opposition" would actually be opposed to the current Government's policies!

oscarBravo

SWoods5000 wrote: »

You're either right or left...

I'm not.

SWoods5000

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not.

Okay then, if you don't mind me asking, to which school of thought do you belong?

oscarBravo

SWoods5000 wrote: »

Okay then, if you don't mind me asking, to which school of thought do you belong?

If I subscribe whole-heartedly to any philosophy, it's to the Chris Rock school of "be a f*cking person". I'm a believer in a market economy with strong social protection. I'm a centrist by tendency - I don't believe in adhering to a political philosophy and then looking to that philosophy for answers.

SWoods5000

Now hang on a tick. Just because you don't adhere totally to a political ideaology that doesn't make you centrist. The fact of the matter is that if you weigh up all of the things you believe in, you'll eventually end up as either marginally right or left.

And I completely reject the idea that you can't be an individual if you firmly believe in an ideaology, be it right or left. I'll give you an example, I'm a Fine Gael supporter, but I absolutely hate the idea of Enda Kenny being Taoiseach. Those who want to think freely always will, and those who want to be sheep will always have decisions made for them.

oscarBravo

SWoods5000 wrote: »

Now hang on a tick. Just because you don't adhere totally to a political ideaology that doesn't make you centrist. The fact of the matter is that if you weigh up all of the things you believe in, you'll eventually end up as either marginally right or left.

...of what?

And I completely reject the idea that you can't be an individual if you firmly believe in an ideaology, be it right or left. I'll give you an example, I'm a Fine Gael supporter, but I absolutely hate the idea of Enda Kenny being Taoiseach. Those who want to think freely always will, and those who want to be sheep will always have decisions made for them.

Supporting Fine Gael isn't an ideology. Believing in communism or libertarianism is an ideology.

I don't believe in communism or libertarianism. I think each has aspects that are admirable and should be adopted. And, right now, I'm a Fine Gael supporter (but have not always been, and probably will not always be).

dsmythy

SWoods5000 wrote: »

And I completely reject the idea that you can't be an individual if you firmly believe in an ideaology, be it right or left. I'll give you an example, I'm a Fine Gael supporter, but I absolutely hate the idea of Enda Kenny being Taoiseach. Those who want to think freely always will, and those who want to be sheep will always have decisions made for them.

What's your issue with Enda?

SWoods5000

oscarBravo wrote: »

...of what?

Of the political spectrum.

And my issue with Enda Kenny is that he is a slithery, racist, local politician with no people skills (and quite frankly is an idiot), who is not a good reflection of the very intelligent members of the party. He has the lowest approval rating of any of the party leaders at the moment, so it is quite clear that the people aren't supporting him, they're supporting people like Leo Varadkar, Michael Noonan, Brian Hayes and Richard Bruton. I believe that Fine Gael's support would be up between 5 and 10% if he were heaved along with Brian Cowen.

oscarBravo

SWoods5000 wrote: »

Of the political spectrum.

You're telling me there's such a thing as a spectrum that doesn't have a centre?

And my issue with Enda Kenny is that he is a slithery, racist, local politician with no people skills (and quite frankly is an idiot), who is not a good reflection of the very intelligent members of the party. He has the lowest approval rating of any of the party leaders at the moment, so it is quite clear that the people aren't supporting him, they're supporting people like Leo Varadkar, Michael Noonan, Brian Hayes and Richard Bruton. I believe that Fine Gael's support would be up between 5 and 10% if he were heaved along with Brian Cowen.

And yet, the intelligent people you so admire in the party have chosen him as their leader. When you encounter an apparent contradiction, it's time to check your premises.

As for him being an idiot with no people skills: have you met him? Or are you content to form a hard-and-fast opinion based on what you see on TV?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

oscarBravo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's not, especially, but that's not what I was contrasting it with.

NSNO

Are they really Civil War orientated politics? Sure, both parties stem from the conflict over the Treaty but really how many people vote FF because of a lasting hatred for Richard Mulcahy and how many FG people only vote FG because of the actions of Rory O'Connor?

Irish people are, by our very nature, opposed to political (read: economic) extremism. Our centrist political parties are an extension of that. The Irish population as a whole has no time for socialism or neo-liberalism.Some people may want a more divided political culture, but I'm happy with the fact that as a centrist I have a large degree of choice on the various policies I want implemented and who will support them, as opposed to having to choose between massive government and no government.

SWoods5000

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're telling me there's such a thing as a spectrum that doesn't have a centre? And yet, the intelligent people you so admire in the party have chosen him as their leader. When you encounter an apparent contradiction, it's time to check your premises.

As for him being an idiot with no people skills: have you met him? Or are you content to form a hard-and-fast opinion based on what you see on TV?

Firstly, I'm saying the whole idea of "Centre Politics" is theory. People use it as a euphemism for being very moderate on one side or the other. Nobody is dead centre.

And secondly, yes I have met, on more than one occasion. Not only that but makes a fool of himself on television as well. I think I forgot to mention coward in my previous lambasting of him. And if you look again at the people I just mentioned, 3 out of 4 of them opposed him as leader and tried to overthrow him.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

oscarBravo

SWoods5000 wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Fine. Define the "dead centre" of the political spectrum in a clear way that everyone will objectively agree with, and then we'll see whether anyone lies there.

Of course, you can't. "Left" and "right" are woolly labels of convenience that don't have objective definitions: a left-winger in the US would be a right-winger in France.

If you're going to have a political spectrum that has woolly labels like "left" and "right", then you have to have a woolly "centre" label as well, and that's the label you'll find me wearing.

And secondly, yes I have met, on more than one occasion. Not only that but makes a fool of himself on television as well. I think I forgot to mention coward in my previous lambasting of him. And if you look again at the people I just mentioned, 3 out of 4 of them opposed him as leader and tried to overthrow him.

Well, clearly the intelligent people you admire in Fine Gael are all complete idiots, because they support that racist, idiotic coward as their leader. Clearly, you know something they don't.

Permabear wrote: »

To believe in "a market economy with strong social protection" is to adhere to a political philosophy, one known more commonly as social democracy.

I see what you're saying, but I don't adhere to it as a political philosophy as such. It's what I believe to be morally right, and yes, I guess there's a political philosophy that broadly describes that.

I think that's subtly different from adhering to a political philosophy, and sledgehammering my worldview into shape in order to fit it. You can see that in action with many hard-left communists, who refuse to acknowledge the efficiencies that can be achieved by market economies because to do so would require that they compromise on their ideology; equally, you have the outer fringes of libertarianism (and I'm talking waaay past your position) who compare social democracy to the execrable evil of owning another human being; and even the die-hard (Irish) republicans who refuse to accept that an entire country exists because - again - it would dent the foundation of their worldview.

I hope that makes sense, I've had a few glasses of wine.

Felim Uallachain

What is racist about Enda Kenny?

oscarBravo

Felim Uallachain wrote: »

What is racist about Enda Kenny?

He told an off-colour joke once. Apparently that makes him Hitler.

Felim Uallachain

oscarBravo wrote: »

He told an off-colour joke once. Apparently that makes him Hitler.

who here hasn't told a racist joke.

or one about Kerrymen.

Patrick47

Felim Uallachain wrote: »

who here hasn't told a racist joke.

or one about Kerrymen.

I havn't.

Felim Uallachain

Patrick47 wrote: »

I havn't.

Good for you. I have and so has everyone I know.Its nothing to be proud of but we generally all tell jokes that maybe we shouldn't.

Patrick47

Like dont send money to japan tsunami appeal, i seen the fella in charge of it and he has 2boats parked infront of his house?

recedite

Kelticguy wrote: »

I would love to get involved with Irish Politics on a local level but I find that it is dominated in my locality by petty "Civil War" political parties. Do you think that Ireland will ever modernise and move on from this era?

It may be dominated by these two tribes, and that is because both tribes seek dominance. However, there are alternatives in every constituency....

paddypowder

i love how the person points out that ff v fg is right vs right

fianna fail when in gov drastically increased welfare rates and payments
drastically increased the size of the public sector
drastically increased spending on the public sector
opened boarders
equal rights amongst men women religions sexual orientations ages etc


if thats a right wing philosophy... it would be very interesting to see lefty politics

i feel irish people are naturally centrists and the leading political parties reflect that (left of center ff and right of center fg)

its laughable when people say we need to modernise and grow up so to speak
because we have 2 main parties
the fact is.. most countries have 2 major parties that fight it out time after time after time


A major problem we DO have is pandering and weak opposition
this is as much a reflection of the people as of the politicians

Belfast

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Most modern European countries have a right-left political divide. We have rotating Fianna Fail/Fine Gael governments. Right-vs-Right.
Fianna Fail & Fine Gael should just unite. There is NO difference, apart from the Civil War history.

I do not think there is much interest in right left politics in Ireland.

ideology or any clear set of principles are seen as a bad thing here.

Irish politics is more about make it up as you go a long, how to get our lot in the State cars.

Just like American where Democrats and Republican are much the same.

Not sure there is any real Left right divide in British politics anymore.

As you say all the main parties are more or less the same when it comes to policy.

Not much real choice.