Twelve Monkeys Question

kraggy

Why is Dr. Railly in the scene in the airport?

The scene is remembered by Cole (Willis) as he was a little boy in the airport on the day that the redhaired guy with the pony tail was leaving to spread the viruses around the world.

But if the scene occurred before all the virus stuff happened, and therefore, before Cole and the psychiatrist ever met, why has she always been in his memory of that day?

Richard Dower

kraggy wrote: »

Why is Dr. Railly in the scene in the airport?

The scene is remembered by Cole (Willis) as he was a little boy in the airport on the day that the redhaired guy with the pony tail was leaving to spread the viruses around the world.

But if the scene occurred before all the virus stuff happened, and therefore, before Cole and the psychiatrist ever met, why has she always been in his memory of that day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w95xIdH4o

Sad Professor

kraggy wrote: »

Why is Dr. Railly in the scene in the airport?

The scene is remembered by Cole (Willis) as he was a little boy in the airport on the day that the redhaired guy with the pony tail was leaving to spread the viruses around the world.

But if the scene occurred before all the virus stuff happened, and therefore, before Cole and the psychiatrist ever met, why has she always been in his memory of that day?

** SPOILERS **

Twelve Monkeys depicts what in time travel stories is often called a closed causal loop which is also a type of predestination paradox. What this means is that cause and effect are in a loop. It's an idea people have a hard time getting their heads around because they are used to time travel stories in which the time traveller changes time. But in Twelve Monkeys, as Cole discovers, this isn't possible. Time CANNOT be changed. The way things happened is they way they always happened. Railly is in the scene at the airport at the beginning because that is what always happened and there's no changing it. The scientists who sent Cole back knew this which is why they were only ever interested in him getting a sample of the virus to bring back so it could be cured in the future.

The first Terminator is another classic example of this. Kyle Reese is sent back in time and becomes the father of the man who will one day send him back.

indough

yes and the terminator getting sent back is what caused skynet and the terminators to be created in the first place

the novikov self-consistency principle is the name for the wider theory behind these loops

krudler

Sad Professor wrote: »

** SPOILERS **

Twelve Monkeys depicts what in time travel stories is often called a closed causal loop which is also a type of predestination paradox. What this means is that cause and effect are in a loop. It's an idea people have a hard time getting their heads around because they are used to time travel stories in which the time traveller changes time. But in Twelve Monkeys, as Cole discovers, this isn't possible. Time CANNOT be changed. The way things happened is they way they always happened. Railly is in the scene at the airport at the beginning because that is what always happened and there's no changing it. The scientists who sent Cole back knew this which is why they were only ever interested in him getting a sample of the virus to bring back so it could be cured in the future.

The first Terminator is another classic example of this. Kyle Reese is sent back in time and becomes the father of the man who will one day send him back.

Isnt Railly the one who gets the sample? she's not the younger version of herself shes the future version, the way i got it was she travels back as well to shake the guys hand on the plane in order to get the sample. There are a few time travellers in the movie aside from Willis.

Its been a while since I've seen it but thats what happens afaik

edit, its not Madeline Stowe's character, the older female scientist from the future, gah must watch this again now.

onlyrocknroll

As a fan of Lost, I've nearly come to blows with friends of mine trying to explain this plot device.

I believe that in H.G Well's The Time Machine that the plot features a closed casual loop, therefore this version of time travel in fiction actually predates the one where you can change the past.

I also believe that most theoretical physicists think that this is how time travel would work if it is possible.

But I'm not really knowledgeable about either sci fi or physics so I'm wrong please correct me somebody.

And oh yeah... Twelve Monkeys rocks.

kraggy

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

As a fan of Lost, I've nearly come to blows with friends of mine trying to explain this plot device.

I believe that in H.G Well's The Time Machine that the plot features a closed casual loop, therefore this version of time travel in fiction actually predates the one where you can change the past.

I also believe that most theoretical physicists think that this is how time travel would work if it is possible.

But I'm not really knowledgeable about either sci fi or physics so I'm wrong please correct me somebody.

And oh yeah... Twelve Monkeys rocks.

But why would Railly be in the airport, the first time around, i.e. when Willis was actually a boy the first ever time around, if Willis only met her for the first time in 1990 when he was committed to the psych hospital after his behaviour when mistakenly sent back to that year (he was supposed to be sent back to 1996).

The only reason she's there when it is actually 1996 (the "second time around that 1996 is happening, due to Cole travelling back in time, to the correct year in in this instance) is because Cole has dragged her into proceedings.

Sad Professor

There was no first or second time around. In the film, time is not a straight line but a loop. Cause and effect is not linear but circular. The events in the airport in 1996 only ever happened once and in the way depicted in the film. As a child in 1996, Cole saw his future self die. And from that moment his fate was written. He was destined to grow up, travel back in time and die in Railly's arms, just as he had witnessed as a child. And there was nothing he could do to change it. He had no choice in the matter, no free will. But (a bit like the audience) he didn't understand this, which is why he kept trying to change things right until the very end.

Cole does, however, experience this same event twice from two different point of views. First, as a child, and later as an adult. But the event itself was always the same.

onlyrocknroll

kraggy wrote: »

But why would Railly be in the airport, the first time around, i.e. when Willis was actually a boy, if Willis only met her for the first time in 1990 when he was committed to the psych hospital after his behaviour when mistakenly sent back to that year (he was supposed to be sent back to 1996).

The only reason she's there when it is actually 1996 is because Cole has dragged her into proceedings.

Others can probably explain this better than I can but here's a shot.

Its not really helpful to think of first time round, second time round etc. There's only one 'time around' really.

Despite the time travelling and causal loop, only one set of events actually happen.

If you attempt to change the past by time travel, you will have already failed, because your trip to past will have already happened, the 'first time around' so to speak.

This is very counter intuitive but it does make sense.

So (sorry its been a long time since I've seen the film), Railly is at the airport because of Cole, who was only there because he was sent from the future, that seems complicated if you think of it as the 'first time around'. But what we see on screen is what really happened when the catastrophe struck, there's no difference between first and second times.

A different way of telling the same story could be; one day a man called James Cole came from the future, lots of bad things happend because of this and there was a catastrophe which killed loads of people. Because of this scientists from the future sent a man called James Cole to the past to get a sample of a virus. A woman called Dr. Kathryn Railly gets dragged into this story and ends up at the airport.

I think the Sad Professor's wikipedia link should explain it better.

onlyrocknroll

Sorry Sad Professor, in all the confusion I called you the 'Mad Hatter' in that post.

indough

you have to think of it as what happened always happened

krudler

[QUOTE=kraggy;68060072]But why would Railly be in the airport, the first time around, i.e. when Willis was actually a boy the first ever time around, if Willis only met her for the first time in 1990 when he was committed to the psych hospital after his behaviour when mistakenly sent back to that year (he was supposed to be sent back to 1996).
The only reason she's there when it is actually 1996 (the "second time around that 1996 is happening, due to Cole travelling back in time, to the correct year in in this instance) is because Cole has dragged her into proceedings.[/QUOTE]

Because thats the way it always happened, he will always travel back and see his older self be shot. Think of it this way, if the future you travlled back in time knocked on your front door and said hi, would you ever have a memory of anything else happening? the future you will ALWAYS knock and say hi because time is a loop, you cant stop it from happening.

time travel movies make our heads spin, its why they're great

Skerries

has anyone seen Le Jetee?
i watched to see what it was like, it is a 45 minute little french film which the film was based on
it is told with B&W pictures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBFPmj2arr0&feature=fvst

Sad Professor

Yeah, I saw La jetée years ago. Peoples did a great job of adapting it into a full length feature. And La jetée itself was actually inspired by a scene from Vertigo.