need advise on 5 dogs..Two part question

littlemis · 16-09-2010 10:18pm #1

Hello all,just wondering if anyone can advise or suggest please..This is a two part problem.....We have two Bassett Hounds sisters,They will be 1 next month,we rescued them when they were six months old,And had them spayed,and they are doing fairly okay training wise,:)they live in the shed and have an armchair each to sleep on and I fenced off the bottom of the yard for them...As they are not indoor dogs I didn't house train but clean up on a daily basis when they go into the garden.:) A bit long winded but I want to give you all the facts,,They both get the same amount of attention from us,both together and individually,,,only thing is 1 of them keeps jumping up all the time and no amount of (no down)??HELP?? seems to work,:(they aslo seem to (walk around our feet)??HELP?? when we go into the yard:( but are very good on the lead...

.and they pull the clothes of the line but I can work on that,,other than that the girls are very good....:D...
Part 2 of our problem,,,We have got three minature jack russells, brothers they were born on14th/july we have them a week today,and in fairness to them they are very good boys,:)and from day one are house training very well,only had a couple of accidents,,:),today I took them out the back for to introduce them to the girls twice first 5mins,then later for 10mins ,and on their own later for about 10mins ..:).Everything went well but the girls were doing great sniffing and they ran around after the boys....the girls were so good but,:) I am worried if I did right as they were ducking out of the girls way and in the chase the boys got tumbled over a couple of times,:eek: The time they were all out together for the 10 mins they were begining to play all five:)......I do supervise but is it too soon for them to socialise with the bigger dogs safely??????HELP PLEASE....thanking you in advance for any advise....

Cherry Blossom · 16-09-2010 10:40pm

Why on earth are you getting so many dogs at the same time

I can't believe anyone could handle 5 puppies at the same time! That's a real recipie for pack mentality you have there. At 9 weeks old the new puppies couldn't possibly have had all their vaccinations, so keep them well away from the bassett hounds untill at least a week after they've had their second vaccinations. All introductions between new dogs should be done very carefully and gradually, all of them should be on a lead and you need to have one person per dog, I'd suggest introducing them in pairs (ie only two dogs present at a time) and as your girls live outdoors do it off your property on neutral ground (once everyone is fully vaccinated)

theghost · 16-09-2010 10:53pm

The only thing I can suggest with the jumping up is that when she does it you say "no" very firmly and turn your back on her. Turn your back on her every time she jumps and ignore her until she stops. Haven't yet found a way of stopping them from walking round your feet. I've now got so used to this with one of mine that I've found myself apologising to her for tripping over her.

I wouldn't let the pups near the girls until about a week after they've had their final vaccinations. The only other problem I can foresee is that you've only got 2 hands and 2 feet. Not trying to be facetious but I have 3 dogs (2 are Jack Russel crosses) and all of them want to be petted at the same time. I'm reduced to stroking the lab/collie cross with my foot while stroking the other two with my hands.

With five dogs you have to make sure that each and every one of them recognises you as pack leader. Whenever one misbehaves make sure the rest see that you are in charge and that the offender is punished

littlemis · 16-09-2010 11:03pm

adrenalinjunkie...The vet said to Introduce the dog the way I did...The girls are vaccinated and the boys have had the first set. The vet made the suggestion that I introduce them.As for the reason why we have the dogs is not the issue..........I thank you for your imput and taking the time to read and reply,,,but I would really appriciate it if the comments,and replies for the moment could be Directed to the questions at hand PLEASE.

Cherry Blossom · 16-09-2010 11:42pm

littlemis wrote: »

I am worried if I did right as they were ducking out of the girls way and in the chase the boys got tumbled over a couple of times,:eek: The time they were all out together for the 10 mins they were begining to play all five:)......I do supervise but is it too soon for them to socialise with the bigger dogs safely??????HELP PLEASE....thanking you in advance for any advise....

I believe these are the issues I addressed in my post. The fact is you have 5 puppies and this is very relevant to how they are socialised together. If you don't want anyone to elaborate on the reasoning behind their comments then my comment would just have been:

Yes it is too soon for them to socialise with the bigger dogs using the method you describe.

I don't think you'd have found that post to helpful! You now seem adamant that you (and the vet) were right so is it re-assurance that you seek?

On the dog stealing washing off the line, I had this problem with my golden lab when he was a puppy (14 years ago :rolleyes:), it was solved by repeatedly telling him to leave it and rewarding when he did. I wouldn't leave her alone with the washing untill this is established but leave her with it when supervised. She won't learn if she has free access to it and she is still only a puppy and is going to do what puppies do.

As for them running under your feet, with 5 dogs your going to have to teach them all 'move' or you'll be standing on a dog or tripping over one at every step. Don't walk around them, tell them 'move' and stand your ground till they get out of your way, move them with your foot if you have to till they figure it out, again reward when they comply.

littlemis · 17-09-2010 12:20am

adrenalinjunkie, Thank you for your comment,and advice,all taken on board with gratitude.I didn't mean to disregard your advice.I was only trying to point out that because the boys have not been fully vaccinated that it was at the vets suggestion I do it within the confinds of our back yard.... I didnt want at the time to raise issue as to why we have five dogs,but more to get advice or and reassurance if you like on how to deal with my questions....I have had dogs of my own for the past 40 years,but this is the first time I have had any dealings with bassett hounds,I suppose hence the reason behind my questions,I was asked to rescue 1 but as there was only two in the litter I couldn't or wouldn't seperate them....The only thing I know is what I have read about them,and as for the boys,we were getting one. again a litter of three,and I took them again for the same reason.......Mad or soft touch I am not sure......but family wrecker I am not.and 1 rescued cat also....5 humans and all 11 of us manage to live in harmony together....well most of the time....
Again Thank you for your advice,and taking the time out to reply.:)

Cherry Blossom · 17-09-2010 12:47am

Consistancy and reward when the desired behaviour is achieved will work with any dog regardless of breed, what may differ is how long it takes for it to click with them and how determined and stubbern they are. I just imagine with 5 it would be very hard to be consistant with them all if they are getting up to mischief at the same time and they would be more inclined to so with their littermates and less willing to accept human authority having their own little hierarchy going on. I have trouble enough with just one puppy a Westie, she seemed to be completely hyper from the outset and would go at something 50 - 100 times before she gave in and conceded defeat. She is loads better now at this stage but it has materialised that she has a serious hormone imbalanced which was discovered when she went into heat at 18 weeks old. Most of her issues have been solved fairly easily just from consistancy and constant supervision as I was in the position that I was able to put 100% focus on her. She should be much better again after she gets spayed in a few months as this will eliminate the hormone issues.

I wish you all the best of luck with the puppies because I have a feeling you are going to need it

lrushe · 17-09-2010 6:51am

littlemis wrote: »

Hello all,just wondering if anyone can advise or suggest please..This is a two part problem.....We have two Bassett Hounds sisters,They will be 1 next month,we rescued them when they were six months old,And had them spayed,and they are doing fairly okay training wise,:)they live in the shed and have an armchair each to sleep on and I fenced off the bottom of the yard for them...As they are not indoor dogs I didn't house train but clean up on a daily basis when they go into the garden.:) A bit long winded but I want to give you all the facts,,They both get the same amount of attention from us,both together and individually,,,only thing is 1 of them keeps jumping up all the time and no amount of (no down)??HELP?? seems to work,:(they aslo seem to (walk around our feet)??HELP?? when we go into the yard:( but are very good on the lead....and they pull the clothes of the line but I can work on that,,other than that the girls are very good....:D...
Part 2 of our problem,,,We have got three minature jack russells, brothers they were born on14th/july we have them a week today,and in fairness to them they are very good boys,:)and from day one are house training very well,only had a couple of accidents,,:),today I took them out the back for to introduce them to the girls twice first 5mins,then later for 10mins ,and on their own later for about 10mins ..:).Everything went well but the girls were doing great sniffing and they ran around after the boys....the girls were so good but,:) I am worried if I did right as they were ducking out of the girls way and in the chase the boys got tumbled over a couple of times,:eek: The time they were all out together for the 10 mins they were begining to play all five:)......I do supervise but is it too soon for them to socialise with the bigger dogs safely??????HELP PLEASE....thanking you in advance for any advise....

To me your dogs are jumping up on you because they are bored looking at the same 4 walls of your back garden. How much exercise are they getting?, it sounds like they have too much energy so they might need some more exercise. I would turn my back and ignore the dog jumping up, once they see that this behaviour doesn't get them the attention they are craving they won't see the point in jumping up anymore. This is not a quick fix and will need to be done everytime the dog jumps up, you can't acknowledge it one day and ignore it the next as the dog won't know where it stands.
You have your garden fenced off so why not just put the clothes line in whatever part the dogs aren't in?
Your dogs are all still pups, pups walk under your feet, just a fact of living with pups, again it could also be attributed to the excitement they feel when they see you as you aren't outside with them all the time.
Once again you older pups seem to reacting to the excitement of having something new in their enviroment ie. the younger pups and so in their excitement are knocking the younger pups over. You need to constantly supervise the play and make sure it doesn't get too rough.
My conclusions to this would be:
1. To me the older pups are screaming out for more exercise and mental stimulation, they are intelligent scent hounds, work that brain.
2. Your older pups need to spend more time with you inside your home, they get so worked up when you go outside simply because of the novelty of being with you.
3. Your pups need to learn some manners, try enrolling them in obedience classes.
4. IMO you've taken on far too much with 5 dogs under the age of 1, not even the most skilled dog owners I know would attempt this. It isn't fair to the dogs, they couldn't possibly get the one on one attention, training and socialising a dogs needs and deserves.

cocker5 · 17-09-2010 7:39am

littlemis wrote: »

Hello all,just wondering if anyone can advise or suggest please..This is a two part problem.....We have two Bassett Hounds sisters,They will be 1 next month,we rescued them when they were six months old,And had them spayed,and they are doing fairly okay training wise,:)they live in the shed and have an armchair each to sleep on and I fenced off the bottom of the yard for them...As they are not indoor dogs I didn't house train but clean up on a daily basis when they go into the garden.:) A bit long winded but I want to give you all the facts,,They both get the same amount of attention from us,both together and individually,,,only thing is 1 of them keeps jumping up all the time and no amount of (no down)??HELP?? seems to work,:(they aslo seem to (walk around our feet)??HELP?? when we go into the yard:( but are very good on the lead....and they pull the clothes of the line but I can work on that,,other than that the girls are very good....:D...
Part 2 of our problem,,,We have got three minature jack russells, brothers they were born on14th/july we have them a week today,and in fairness to them they are very good boys,:)and from day one are house training very well,only had a couple of accidents,,:),today I took them out the back for to introduce them to the girls twice first 5mins,then later for 10mins ,and on their own later for about 10mins ..:).Everything went well but the girls were doing great sniffing and they ran around after the boys....the girls were so good but,:) I am worried if I did right as they were ducking out of the girls way and in the chase the boys got tumbled over a couple of times,:eek: The time they were all out together for the 10 mins they were begining to play all five:)......I do supervise but is it too soon for them to socialise with the bigger dogs safely??????HELP PLEASE....thanking you in advance for any advise....

on the jumping up thing... here's what our trainer told us to do... our cocker was terrible at jumping up on people...

Fisrtly by saying "no" you re still giving the dog attention... all be it negative attention... dogs LOVE any attention...

Here's what she told us to do...

when your dog jumps up.. turn your back to them straight away... say nothing.... when your dog has all 4 feet on the floor again... turn back around and praise them etc........do this over and over again.. your dog will learn that by jumping up they get NO attention etc.... when they DONT jump up reward them with affection.. they will soon get the message..

CreedonsDogDayc · 17-09-2010 7:52am

OP I hope you've done your research on littermate syndrome, and I hope your a very very very experienced dog handler and trainer as if not then I think you're heading for a disaster.

You aren't breaking up a family by separating litermates, you are giving them an opportunity to develop their own personalities and characteristics without being stifled by over exuberant litter mates. If your theory of separating a family is unfair is true, then i'd argue that it is more unfair to take all of the mother dog's pups away from her in one go.

My advice to you would be to seriously consider finding a suitable home for at least two of the Jack Russell pups where they can grow and learn on their own with a family all to themselves.

littlemis · 17-09-2010 10:07am

Thanks for all the advise to date,....WE took No dog away from their mothers....I rescued these girls from being dumped,abandoned call it whatever you like....The boys ,how does drowning sound to you....We did not now or in the past every take on an animal without doing our homework,and seeking out the best advice,be it from people like yourselves,vets or trainers etc... SO wheather you agree with our motives for having so many animals or not,is entirely your choice...We have a grass garden,wood area,back yard and all are walled in.....We take them for daily walks twice a day.....am and pm......The jumping started about the same time as the clothes pulling....Now as for dividing them and finding them homes so the boys personality and character will develop....I suppose you are right.perhaps i should give all animals away till I have only 1 left......then to be fair I suppose I should do the same with my children........I suppose I should then go to the ispca and tell them I can no longer help in fostering or finding homes for animals.....I didnt realise how cruel I am being....
AGAIN I would like to thank all those who have offered advise,to the questions I raised,...and to the people who gave their opinion on our ability to look after the animals,your words of wisdom and experience are appriciated,and noted.....Thanks again to all who replied......

ISDW · 17-09-2010 10:35am

Wow. Good on you for rescuing the dogs, but usually when you rescue, you save them from drowning or whatever, and then find them new homes, thats how it works:D I think its very crass to start equating your children to your dogs, if thats how you feel, how come you don't allow the dogs into the house, do the children also sleep outside? Not an issue to me that they sleep outside, but you are the one comparing dogs to children.

If you have done the research that you have said, and I obviously have no reason to doubt you, then you'll know all about littermate syndrome, if not, I suggest you look into it.

Toulouse · 17-09-2010 10:43am

Agree with ISDW, fair play to you for doing all you can for them but there is such a thing as taking on too many dogs even though you are trying to help so please make sure you don't fall into that category.

Best of luck with your 3 little ones. People here are great for advice so please do ask if you have any questions.

littlemis · 17-09-2010 11:22am

Yes all points appriciated,and yes it was silly to compare the children to the dogs...it stung a little to think my best intentions would have a negative impact on the dogs.......To be honest in fairness to myself I have been dealing with a vet and trainer for years.of all the good advice they have given me,never once was littermate syndrome mentioned.....hence my silly reaction...I have googled littermate syndrome and shall continue to study it....I shall also be asking the said professionals why it wasn't mentioned to me.......We will insure to take the appropriate steps to give the puppies the life they deserve.....Many Thanks to all....

angelfire9 · 17-09-2010 11:42am

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/choosing/siblings.shtml

Siblings are also more difficult to train and in many cases will start fighting when the get to the onset of puberty. They rarely reach full maturity as they tend to be mentally and sometimes physically stunted by the closeness to each other. I have seen German Shepherds and Utonagans bought as littermates and their ears have never become erect as with normal adults. If it can have that type of physical effect just imagine what is occurring psychologically.

We see this with human twins. Schools now separate them into different classes so they can learn without the constant interaction with their twin. Parents are advised from a young age to stimulate and play with twins separately, helping them to become more rounded adults rather than a symbiotic double act.

lrushe · 17-09-2010 11:44am

Nobody is on here to bash you for rescuing your current dogs. However you posted a list of problems you are having in the hope of finding answers and one of the answers that has stuck out to almost everyone who has read your post is that you have 5 dogs under the age of 1, it's a fact, there is no way to dress it up. It's not a criticism but having that many young dogs at one time (for anyone) is going to result in some of the problems you are experiencing.

ppink · 17-09-2010 12:06pm

OP I think the ignoring is the best thing to try for the jumping up. If you are consistant and get everyone in the house to do the same thing it will help I'm sure. Biggest problems with some of these training techniques is when some of the household dont follow them.
When we had our pup introduced to the bigger dogs we watched her all the time. We did leave her out to play alone for short periods but monitored from the kitchen window, just in case she got hurt as there was a big size difference. After a few weeks she was well able to hold her own though and the bigger dogs were gentle with her.

You would want to think about the whole 3 inside 2 outside thing a bit, especially now they are young. We did take on older dogs who were easier than puppies to toilet train...1 week with loads of positive (no negative with accidents) and they were trained perfectly! Its just something I would be thinking about in case you end up with 2 separate packs that dont get on or something like that.
Good luck with your busy house:)

LisaO · 17-09-2010 12:15pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/choosing/siblings.shtml

Jack Russell Jedwards :eek::eek:

sionnaic · 17-09-2010 2:31pm

Just on the Basset hounds...we have a basset (he's about 9
months old) and if he's any indication of the breed I can tell you they do not like to be away from their owners all the time. They're very much pack animals and like to be around their family as much as possible. And if he's not happy it's not long before he acts out by chewing/shredding/destroying whatever happens to be around. Also they're deceptively active, and while they do love to sleep, they also love playing and exercise - our guy has our collie run ragged!

Because you have your two girls as outdoor dogs they don't get this key interaction with their family and it's probably why they're all over you when you appear, and it's also probably why they're going after your washing.

I'd suggest you start integrating them more with your daily family life - let them be part of your pack.

littlemis · 17-09-2010 3:26pm

Maybe I should clarify one thing,the bassetts are not your average locked in a pen untill we want you sort of dogs.They are let out early every morning free to roam and play untill walk time.They have interaction with family members most of the day...when I say their areas, in the shed that is to sleep it is their personal space....The part of the yard that is fenced is divided so they have an area to play or relax away from humans if they so wish,the other part is their toilet area,I just never toilet trained them in the house....They access to the house if they want it,they just choose not to come in very often,when they do they cant wait to get out again......the vet thinks it may be because they lived outdoors for their first 6 mths,......

Cherry Blossom · 17-09-2010 4:31pm

OP please be aware that Vets are trained in medicine, they spend years studying anatomy, surgical procedures and how to diagnose diseases and heath complaints and how to treat them. I greatly appreciate this knowledge of health issues but they are not trained in canine behaviour, feline behavior, equine behaviour or any other behaviour so I wouldn't assume that they are giving you anything other than a guess in behavioral matters, and to be frank their guess is only as good as the next persons. Canine behaviour and psychology is a whole different occupation on its own and unless your vet is also a fully qualified behaviourist I wouldn't take his/her word as gospel

Discodog · 17-09-2010 5:00pm

littlemis you have been given a wealth of advice here from people with a great deal of knowledge. Suzi alone rescues more puppies in a week that most might see in years. The majority here feel that you are potentially heading for trouble.

I have been around dogs for all of my life. I have just rescued a pup (6 months). Along with my other two dogs he will be taking up a huge amount of my time & attention. I only took him on because my other dogs are old enough & wise enough to not feel left out. But all three of mine share the house & my life 24/7.

I am sure that everything that you have done has been born of good motives & it is encouraging that you seek advice. I would urge you to meet with a behaviourist - I am sure that someone here could recommend one.

The key now is to do what is best for the long term development & life of the dogs. Your compassion made you rescue them & now it has to be channelled into giving them a good life. Seek face to face advice & listen to it for the sake of the dogs.

ppink · 17-09-2010 5:45pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/choosing/siblings.shtml

I read this with interest this morning and spent the day studying my tribe of siblings and have to say I am lucky that we have not got the issues outlined with them.
it makes sense to read and it worried me at first but it guess like everything it is good to be aware of the pitfalls but it does not mean it will happen in all cases.

Littlemis- our dogs all prefer to be outside also. i thinkit is more exciting for them out there. I could bet the house if the door is open they will all be snooping around outside or panned out on the lawn.

goat2 · 17-09-2010 9:52pm

ISDW wrote: »

Wow. Good on you for rescuing the dogs, but usually when you rescue, you save them from drowning or whatever, and then find them new homes, thats how it works:D I think its very crass to start equating your children to your dogs, if thats how you feel, how come you don't allow the dogs into the house, do the children also sleep outside? Not an issue to me that they sleep outside, but you are the one comparing dogs to children.

If you have done the research that you have said, and I obviously have no reason to doubt you, then you'll know all about littermate syndrome, if not, I suggest you look into it.

what is littermate syndromei have 3 jack russells 11 months old and they are from the same litter, i have given them alot of my time, taken for two walks a day, throwing balls for them, toilet training them, i dont have problems with them, they have their own personalities, and they play together

Cherry Blossom · 18-09-2010 12:03am

goat2 wrote: »

what is littermate syndromei have 3 jack russells 11 months old and they are from the same litter, i have given them alot of my time, taken for two walks a day, throwing balls for them, toilet training them, i dont have problems with them, they have their own personalities, and they play together

Someone has already posted a link on this, here is another:

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

I haven't come across this personally in dogs, I have seen quite a few cases of the equivilant in horses though (pair bonding), usually where 2 kids ponies are kept privately by a family out at grass all the time. The results are quite disasterous and I end up having them sent to me for 'fixing'. A change of circumstances they are kept in and strict routine when I'm done with them is the only long term remedy though but of course it always falls on deaf ears :rolleyes:

need advise on 5 dogs..Two part question

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