Man as A Warmonger

Logical Fallacy

I've started to think that blokes, especially from my generation, have developed some kind of genetic embarasment about the fact that they are male. Ironically, it seems to be manifesting itself in two ways

1) The Traditionalist - a guy who will happily embrace "manish" behaviour and adopt the defence that he is a man. Normally running to stereotypes involving boozing too much, womanising and generally being a total cock it will all be explained away as being "in his genes". A fan of his sports, of his "physical activity" (normally debatable as to how physically active he is, sitting and watching sports on TV doesn't count). He talks about drinking and ****ing and cars and explosions because that's all "man stuff".

2) The Apologist - A guy who lives his whole life like he is afraid or embarassed about the fact that he is, in fact, a he. Obsessed with his hair, his clothes, what his female friends think of him, not offending his female friends with "outmoded" or "outdated" thinking. Being seen as a progressive thinker who embraces everyone as an equal, no bad behaviour or sexist remarks. Normally lacking in anything equatable to an original opionion or thought he tends to spew recycled bull**** from whatever trendy book or article based website is in at the time.

Now, i am not saying that all blokes are like the above, most of us tend to genuine humans and are rough composites of a million things but i have noticed a fairly large upsurge in the above two types over the last couple of years. One group who are obsessed with living up to the stereotype and another group who seem to be obssessed with running as far away from it as they can.

Am i alone in this? Am i the only person who misses the Middle Man? The guy who had both balance and swing, who could go out and actually play a ****ing sport and then go for a few beers afterwards, chat to a lass and get shot down and have a laugh about it afterwards and not treat it like some kind of ****ing tragedy? A guy who was more than happy to engage in both mental and physical challenges without needing to launch the words "jock" or "nerd" at anyone else? Are we really sitting here and allowing the fact that human history is filled with fighting and most of it happened while blokes were "in charge" to affect us to the point of this double spawning of a complete shower of ****ing numbnuts who exemplify the worst traits to either side of the line over which the gonadular pendulum swings?

Or am i just having a bad morning?

Herbal Deity

I really have no idea what you are trying to say, or why this "Middle Man" is, in your view, the optimum stereotype to conform to.

az2wp0sye65487

Bad morning methinks.

Because I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

Wibbs

That a lot of men out there are confused by what the title may mean and there may be more of a tendency to follow extremes?

Logical Fallacy

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I really have no idea what you are trying to say, or why this "Middle Man" is, in your view, the optimum stereotype to conform to.

Where did i say anyone should be like anything? I simple expressed that i miss the people i have termed "The Middle Men", i didn't say i wanted everyone to be one. A general dislike of some attributes is not the same as the desire to see them expunged.

I asked if people have spotted a noticable increase in two specific traits of male behaviour, that's about it.

Red Hand

First of all, you have define what the standard man is. Like the "middle man" you describe seems to fit alot more with the "traditionalist" that you describe. In fact, I would think that many of these middle men started out as traditionalists and as time goes on, they care less about what other people think or how they think they should think, and so evolve into the more rounded middle man.

Logical Fallacy

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

First of all, you have define what the standard man is. Like the "middle man" you describe seems to fit alot more with the "traditionalist" that you describe. In fact, I would think that many of these middle men started out as traditionalists and as time goes on, they care less about what other people think or how they think they should think, and so evolve into the more rounded middle man.

Okay, very valid point. How about running with the end of your point and just considering the Middle Man to be a more rounded invidual? Or is that a bit to vague? You reply in combination with Wibbs kind of hits the crux of what i am trying to say basically, are more blokes running into stereotypes these days.

If not, are we generating new ones by trying to get away from old ones?

Red Hand

Okay, very valid point. How about running with the end of your point and just considering the Middle Man to be a more rounded invidual? Or is that a bit to vague? You reply in combination with Wibbs kind of hits the crux of what i am trying to say basically, are more blokes running into stereotypes these days.

If not, are we generating new ones by trying to get away from old ones?

I think that with younger fellows that I see out and about, they fall into a few stereotypes.

Socks tucked into their tracksuits, mullets, dodgy ear-ring brigade who think that Jason Stathom films are mighty. They are like that from the ages of 10/12 to 19. Traditionalists in terms of talking about s*x, drinking etc. Bizarely, the person they most try and resemble is probably Romaldo.

Richer fellows have expensive baggy, chic-ripped/patched jeans, they skateboard/surf, are physically active, speak with many Americanisms. Confident in themselves. Well groomed or at least, fashionably groomed. When I was in school in countryside, hairdresser styled haired would have marked you out as being gay.

Edit: though thinking about it, they do care what their female friends think of them. In fact, I think they would have alot more contact with females of their own age in general, and this would kind of impact on them, but not as much as you as you describe when describing apologists. I think they would still talk of how ride-able a girl was with their male friends behind their female friend's back.:pac:

I see these two types regularly. Neither would be apologists to be fair...I'm not even sure what apologists are, or if I'm one.:pac:

People originating from the countryside really don't fall into either of these stereotypes, I find. They may live in the cities because of work/college, but in their teen years, they really didn't get moulded by peer groups that much. Maybe its just me, but because of more limited socialising, they don't try and conform into the stereotypes as they may not have a group that they hang around with after school.

I'm still not sure about the apologists. Trying to think of one I know...or an example.

viclemronny

Nah, I can kinda see where you're coming from. Though I always thought it came from more of a blurring of gender behavior.

As in, we have become a lot more liberal as a society over the last, let's say half a century, and as such, behaviors that were either classically male or female are now more acceptable for the other to do. I speak more of small things, like a lad colouring his hair or a girl drinking a pint of Guinness.

Not that there's anything wrong with any of this, but I think it has made us more aware of where traditional gender lines would have been drawn and that leaves people with the choice of embracing our more liberal attitude to guys doing "girly" things and girls going "laddish" things or leaning towards the more traditional values of men are men and women are women.

The fact that in the past, there were very clear gender lines set, specifically ones that favoured men, meant that men didn't think of it as much. It was never an issue. As we become more conscious of what it traditionally and still to some degree means to "be a man" we have to have an opinion on that.

RobbieTheRobber

I agree with the OP and think its more about the wearing away of traditional roles of men in life. (Edit: Im not saying this is bad just stating fact)
Roles like the primary bread winner or Soldier and also the decline in more physical based work in western society which were all male roles.

The two types you talk about are a direct result of that for me with one trying to retain what is left of what we think of as male traits in modern life such as sporting prowess and ability to drink/fight talk hard and the other being the males who are trying to fit in with this media created disaster of a man who is in tune with his feminie side and bla bla so on.

When really the real aspiration should be as you say the middle man, somone who is both physical and a thinker although this may be a hard ideal for most of us to ever really attain.

I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that our role models for most our father or brothers who come from an older generation have never really felt comfortable in the changing roles of men and havent really been able to provide a great example for us as the world changes.
Most of them are set in the old ways, (perhaps with a large dollop of sexism thrown in as was the way) and the the younger generations know that we cant be as our fathers so who do we become like. So we either cling to one set or the other the nerds or jocks.

All this for me goes hand in hand with the high percentage of suicides who happen to be young disillusioned men

BopNiblets

The duality of man concept isn't new, the desire to create/destroy, good/evil and all that, each person is a scale, the balance tips one way or another.

We should all be like Ned Flanders.

big b

BopNiblets wrote: »

The duality of man concept isn't new, the desire to create/destroy, good/evil and all that, each person is a scale, the balance tips one way or another.

We should all be like Ned Flanders.

okily dokily, neighbourino

Disco Volante

I can see where the OP is coming from and agree with him to a degree but haven't people always drifted to stereotypes? Mods, Rockers, Punks, Jocks?

Robbie has made a great point too in saying that the latest generation can't even begin to emulate the man that our father or older brother was and has become because a lot of the actions that they took in their hey day would be frowned upon now in a big time.

You are always going to have young men who love nothing more than to hit another guy in the face repeatedly. What ever gets you off... I practice martial arts and have done a small bit of boxing I like a decent scrap but as soon as I walk out of the gym that's where I leave it. I don't need to go out on the town and find someone to fight because I have all the challenges I need in the gym.

The flip side of the coin is that I also like to wear nice clothes be clean shaven and keep the hair cut and tidy. I like to treat everybody as equal but also I can see the humour in sexist jokes where as I don't tolerate someone who is being sexist. Just like people can see the humour in Irish Jokes.

I suppose looking at the the generation growing up now you can see the guys who have taken the two stereotypes OP has defined to the extreme... You have kids who are terrified of a days manual labour in case they break one of their finely manicured nails.

Then you have the other lot, who in my opinion are just little scumbags with as someone pointed out go around with the socks tucked into the track suit pants...

But are the two stereotypes just generalisations which cover small sub-genres of the two groups?

Scumbags, Skaters, Hurlers, Stoners, Metrosexuals, Bookworms, Musicians?

Snowie

margret thatcher.....

CDfm

too stereotype - most guys get up in the morning and go to work and pay their taxes and pay for their families.

thats what men do.

Beer swilling footballing fighting types are those in their 20 to 30 demographic.

HavingCrack

I think part of the problem is that being 'manly' or 'masculine' (for lack of a better word) eg physical work, beer drinking, red blooded male in western countries has been constantly attacked by a certain influential segment of society since the rise of feminism (I'm not saying this is wrong or right, just fact). Therefore as the OP says some men (probably the majority) are either embracing some strange sort of masclunity to compensate (getting drunk and starting a fight with some random stranger seems to be par for the course among some lads I know) or else going in the opposite direction and associated with females and being strangely sensitive and girly (possibly the nice guy idea??).

Funnily, personally speaking the former appears to get far more sexual interest from women than the latter so I wonder what makes peopel want to behave in a way thats less attractive to the ladies . I'm not condoning fighting or whatever, just saying its odd that you'd want to be some strange sort of feminised man.

Basically, I think a lot of men don't know how to be men anymore. Despite what some peopel seem to think there is a difference between the genders, hence why there's two . Men are men and women and women and I think the blurring of the lines (for better or worse depending on your views) has created thsi problem and I can see it getting a lot worse in the future.

Herbal Deity

So who defines what it is to be a man?

I'm always unsure about the question of men not having a defined role in the 21st century. I used to tend to agree, but now I don't think I do. I think that since civilization began there have been all sorts of men - some very physical, some great thinkers, some beautiful, some artistic, some introverts, some extroverts etc. etc. etc.

So tbqfh, I think that all the guff about "Masculinity in crisis" has been created by those with ideas of how men should be, and who feel threatened or something by less of the physical, aggressive types existing these days. And dear God, it's not a feminist conspiracy.

The thing about the words "masculine" and "feminine" is that they're largely constructs, related much more to societal norms than biological traits. Societal norms evolve, however, and phrases such as "feminized men" are needless. Let people be who they want to be without belittling them.

There are a lot of idiots in the world who tend towards stupid stereotypes. I think it has always been this way, however. I would not attribute the existence of "Traditionalists" or "Apologists" to anything like men not knowing "how to behave like men".

CDfm

Herbal Deity wrote: »

So who defines what it is to be a man?

I'm always unsure about the question of men not having a defined role in the 21st century. I used to tend to agree, but now I don't think I do. I think that since civilization began there have been all sorts of men - some very physical, some great thinkers, some beautiful, some artistic, some introverts, some extroverts etc. etc. etc.

I agree but have to point out that we tend to want to think in terms of who was at the top of the food chain.

So tbqfh, I think that all the guff about "Masculinity in crisis" has been created by those with ideas of how men should be, and who feel threatened or something by less of the physical, aggressive types existing these days. And dear God, it's not a feminist conspiracy.

So there were a lot more farmers, serfs, and miners providing for their families. Men by and large didn't have the vote until less than 100 years ago and women got it too.

The thing about the words "masculine" and "feminine" is that they're largely constructs, related much more to societal norms than biological traits. Societal norms evolve, however, and phrases such as "feminized men" are needless. Let people be who they want to be without belittling them.

i think if you define these things in terms of breadwinner - most men are wage slaves and go further and say what disposable income a guy has after all this its not a construct at all. Its a question of fact.

If you want to dispose of these constructs then you remove gender based supports in things like single parents allowance, childrens allowance, family law , housing and treat the genders equally.

In a marxist economic sense, legally, a man has less rights to the wages he earned than 100 years ago and less rights to his home. Certainly in Ireland a womans/mothers rights are enshrined in the constitution whereas a mans rights are not.

To say its any different to the guy going down the mine or being a farm labourer 100 years ago is a bit much. Same dog, different hair.

There are a lot of idiots in the world who tend towards stupid stereotypes. I think it has always been this way, however. I would not attribute the existence of "Traditionalists" or "Apologists" to anything like men not knowing "how to behave like men".

The stereotypes seem to be adrift from the reality and the "redistribution of whatever" in terms of power or money is not with the ordinary guy.

take everything

Aren't the two just media-driven and young fellas just slavishly following one or the other- whichever they can pull off better.
It's pathetic that people often slavishly conform to one or the other (and probably see themselves as different no doubt for doing so).

Any genuine complexity often being lost, maybe even being seen as having less currency than the cartoonish extremes.

CDfm

take everything wrote: »

Aren't the two just media-driven and young fellas just slavishly following one or the other- whichever they can pull off better.
It's pathetic that people often slavishly conform to one or the other (and probably see themselves as different no doubt for doing so).

Any genuine complexity often being lost, maybe even being seen as having less currency than the cartoonish extremes.

Not really, there is a lot of fun to be had being a boy as there is being a girl and no doubt about it either.

Its not really being shallow at all to act your age and try it on -being a young guy is a great experience.

If you look at it in terms of Maslows Hierarchy of Needs it makes perfect sense.

As an extension, look at political parties young fine gael and fianna fail and the energy of student politics in colleges where many budding politico's cut their teeth.

People might scoff at Brian Cowans radio interview but what he had done the night before was pressing flesh and bonding with his gang. Conferences and groups of all types do the same.

JayEnnis

This is me.



But I actually made a thread on another forum about the decline of the alpha male recently, was interesting to hear some responses. I see a lot of young men going who are lazy, only interested in drinking, afraid of a days work and scab off their parents until they are 25.

I'm 18 and live what would be regarded as an alternative lifestyle, I ride Bmx, skate and surf and sub consciously dress a little different to differentiate myself from the main population of young men, I go out a lot and drink a fair bit but work hard to support this. I finished school in June and got a Job as soon as I could (Landscaping), when I didn't get my college place I decided to return to school to better myself. I'm finding it increasingly hard to bear the other students who act like children after spending the summer working with older men. It's like they all expect everything to be handed to them.

DS333

JayEnnis wrote: »

This is me.



But I actually made a thread on another forum about the decline of the alpha male recently, was interesting to hear some responses. I see a lot of young men going who are lazy, only interested in drinking, afraid of a days work and scab off their parents until they are 25.

I'm 18 and live what would be regarded as an alternative lifestyle, I ride Bmx, skate and surf and sub consciously dress a little different to differentiate myself from the main population of young men, I go out a lot and drink a fair bit but work hard to support this. I finished school in June and got a Job as soon as I could (Landscaping), when I didn't get my college place I decided to return to school to better myself. I'm finding it increasingly hard to bear the other students who act like children after spending the summer working with older men. It's like they all expect everything to be handed to them.

That's a fine landscaping job you've done in the background.:D

Only joking. Couldn't resist...:o

Klingon Hamlet

I'm in my mid twenties, I'm a proud single dad, I work hard and get paid a paltry amount, I aspire to better myself but have modest expectations, I love a good night out with my friends, full of beers and banter, I'm as red-blooded as the next guy but not a sexist pr1ck, I stand my ground when I need to and keep my manners in general, I know how to have fun because I know what makes me happy.

That's what makes me a man.

A woman could say the same thing basically, and that would make her a woman.

Anyone who whines about their being lost,unable to find a place in society, not knowing their "role"...are children. Adults define themselves.

DS333

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I'm in my mid twenties, I'm a proud single dad, I work hard and get paid a paltry amount, I aspire to better myself but have modest expectations, I love a good night out with my friends, full of beers and banter, I'm as red-blooded as the next guy but not a sexist pr1ck, I stand my ground when I need to and keep my manners in general, I know how to have fun because I know what makes me happy.

That's what makes me a man.

A woman could say the same thing basically, and that would make her a woman.

Anyone who whines about their being lost,unable to find a place in society, not knowing their "role"...are children. Adults define themselves.

You're perfectly right. And "adults" who redefine themselves because they feel threatened by the opinions of others have entered second childhood.

amacachi

Why/how must one define oneself?

Klingon Hamlet

amacachi wrote: »

Why/how must one define oneself?

By one's strengths, abilities, skills, desires, interests and virtues. Simply identifying those parts of myself helped me to become a more confident and happier dude. Everyone questions themselves every once in a while---or at least everyone with modesty and humility---but to constantly seek validation through stereotypes like Alpha Male, Bread-winner, all that BS clearly needs to take a good look at themselves.

One guy who works 60 hours a week with his hands, another who writes/paints all the time,another who stays at home with the kids while the mum works outside the home---these can all be equally strong in their own ways.

There's a difference between defining yourself, and labelling yourself. My understanding is that when you define yourself, you focus on your positives,what you bring to your own life and the lives of those around you, what you do that makes you, you. Labelling yourself focuses on the negative (Beta Male, metrosexual, all that rubbish). it limits you, holds you back, pins you down and leaves you less than the sum of your parts.

All IMHO:)

amacachi

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

By one's strengths, abilities, skills, desires, interests and virtues. Simply identifying those parts of myself helped me to become a more confident and happier dude. Everyone questions themselves every once in a while---or at least everyone with modesty and humility---but to constantly seek validation through stereotypes like Alpha Male, Bread-winner, all that BS clearly needs to take a good look at themselves.

One guy who works 60 hours a week with his hands, another who writes/paints all the time,another who stays at home with the kids while the mum works outside the home---these can all be equally strong in their own ways.

There's a difference between defining yourself, and labelling yourself. My understanding is that when you define yourself, you focus on your positives,what you bring to your own life and the lives of those around you, what you do that makes you, you. Labelling yourself focuses on the negative (Beta Male, metrosexual, all that rubbish). it limits you, holds you back, pins you down and leaves you less than the sum of your parts.

All IMHO:)

Ah right, I was thinking more in terms of labelling. Unfortunately for me it's hard to define myself. Without meaning to sound big-headed I feel like I've got more than a few strengths and my ambition is unlikely to be understood by many or even viewed as having ambition as such.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Definitely think there's an upsurge in apologist/modern white knight types.

Haven't noticed an increase in traditionalists yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if its happening as a backlash against the ever increasing level of confusion placed on men in the modern world, which I think is more extreme in Ireland than most places.

scientific1982

Being a man is taking care of your family and standing up for what you believe is right. All that other stuff is just ****e that we use to place people into little boxes.

DS333

What about the guys who sit down to take a leak because they claim it's offensive to women to stand up?

TOOYOUNGTODIE

DS333 wrote: »

What about the guys who sit down to take a leak because they claim it's offensive to women to stand up?

What gimp sits down to have a piss. that is so wrong. you have a mickey use it. its far more hygenic than sitting down each time

DS333

TOOYOUNGTODIE wrote: »

What gimp sits down to have a piss. that is so wrong. you have a mickey use it. its far more hygenic than sitting down each time

Gimp is right... What next?
Perhaps women should use urinals so as not to offend us?

BopNiblets

Lookout, it's the piss police...
I pee standing on my head, I think you gents above are the gimps!
:pac:

DS333

BopNiblets wrote: »

Lookout, it's the piss police...
I pee standing on my head, I think you gents above are the gimps!
:pac:

Good for you!

Er... Perhaps you should post an instructional video.

parker kent

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Obsessed with his hair, his clothes, what his female friends think of him, not offending his female friends with "outmoded" or "outdated" thinking. Being seen as a progressive thinker who embraces everyone as an equal, no bad behaviour or sexist remarks

When did looking after your appearance and treating people equally become a bad thing? Or any of what I have just quoted? Granted some people make a massive act out of not offending anybody and have a complete lack of humour, but for the most part I would see those traits as positive.

Edit: Taking hair for example, different men have different opinions on what being "obsessed" with hair equals. Same thing with the other aspects of what I quoted. What I would call normal decency towards women is seen by some men as being obsessed with what women think. Treating people equally is definitely not a bad thing.

L31mr0d

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

2) The Apologist - A guy who lives his whole life like he is afraid or embarassed about the fact that he is, in fact, a he. Obsessed with his hair, his clothes, what his female friends think of him, not offending his female friends with "outmoded" or "outdated" thinking. Being seen as a progressive thinker who embraces everyone as an equal, no bad behaviour or sexist remarks. Normally lacking in anything equatable to an original opionion or thought he tends to spew recycled bull**** from whatever trendy book or article based website is in at the time.

This reads as a definition of the modern "hipster". A human subculture I hope will quickly die off.