Lap dancers are educated and happy, study finds

Permabear

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metrovelvet

donegalfella wrote: »

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Uh. I dont know if it changes my view of the sex industry but it certainly changes my view of forking out 100k for a private college education to end up a lapdancer.

Who needs straight As at Princeton if you got double ds.

Denerick

If women are prepared to be lap dancers or prostitutes that is their choice. Though there is a difference between consent and informed consent.

In an ideal world, the sex industry would be heavily regulated, with months and months of backlog and procedure to go through in order to make sure women are totally sure of whether they wish to go through with this choice.

They should make it like the Driving test. That bureaucracy drives the best of us insane.

Permabear

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Zillah

donegalfella wrote: »

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Lap dancing is part of the sex industry? You realise they don't actually have to have sex with anyone, right?

Permabear

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Rubik.

donegalfella wrote: »

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It doesn't. The research is about lap dancers, not the sex industry as a whole. If it was broader in scope I would expect different results.

The Highwayman

Denerick wrote: »

If women are prepared to be lap dancers or prostitutes that is their choice. Though there is a difference between consent and informed consent.

In an ideal world, the sex industry would be heavily regulated, with months and months of backlog and procedure to go through in order to make sure women are totally sure of whether they wish to go through with this choice.

They should make it like the Driving test. That bureaucracy drives the best of us insane.

Thats a fairly condescending view you have there. If a woman wants to sleep with a lot of people its fine but if they want to get paid for it they should be vetted and tested? What exactly are the procedures these ladies should go through?

As an adult I consent to things every day you dont get to tell people 'no you cant do that your not informed enough'.

Denerick

The Highwayman wrote: »

Thats a fairly condescending view you have there. If a woman wants to sleep with a lot of people its fine but if they want to get paid for it they should be vetted and tested? What exactly are the procedures these ladies should go through?

As an adult I consent to things every day you dont get to tell people 'no you cant do that your not informed enough'.

The difference is that consensual sex and prostitution are very different things. Its common sense - make sure an 18 year old doesn't scar herself indefinately by making the sex industry frustrating to get into.

Zillah

donegalfella wrote: »

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But they're not having sex. It's part of the entertainment industry. A sleazy and expensive element of the entertainment industry, sure, but until they cross the line to prostitution I'd have serious problems calling it part of the sex industry...because there's no sex.

metrovelvet

Zillah wrote: »

But they're not having sex. It's part of the entertainment industry. A sleazy and expensive element of the entertainment industry, sure, but until they cross the line to prostitution I'd have serious problems calling it part of the sex industry...because there's no sex.

While I agree with you in theory it is my understanding that in practise the line is pretty blurry.

In other words, pay them enough and the line is gone.

Permabear

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Valmont

metrovelvet wrote: »

While I agree with you in theory it is my understanding that in practise the line is pretty blurry.

As Heather Graham said in The Hangover: "Lap dancing is a great way to meet clients".

herya

I see no reasons to extend these results to sex industry as a whole. Lap dancing is to prostitution what glamour modelling is to porn. It's not even a light version, it's a different animal.

Permabear

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The Highwayman

Denerick wrote: »

The difference is that consensual sex and prostitution are very different things. Its common sense - make sure an 18 year old doesn't scar herself indefinately by making the sex industry frustrating to get into.

At 18 you can fight and die for your country, commit a crime and get the death penalty, drink booze or vote for a government but you dont think a man or woman has the sense to decide if they want to sell their body for cash?

There are many ways we can scar ourselves for life over things we consent to do at 18 but society deems us old enough and ugly enough to make our own minds up on these issues.

Other than getting paid for it whats the difference between consensual sex and consensual prostitution? Ignoring the argument that all sex is a form of prostitution.

Some, for right or wrong see it and lapdancing as a quick way to make major cash.

veritable

Denerick wrote: »

The difference is that consensual sex and prostitution are very different things. Its common sense - make sure an 18 year old doesn't scar herself indefinately by making the sex industry frustrating to get into.

You're not serious,are you?

What you're saying is that an adult woman should not be able to decide what she wants to do?

veritable

donegalfella wrote: »

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There are special interests involved in all of this.

The various taxpayer-funded womens groups need to create a situation where they are needed to help with this massive problem of trafficked women and women forced into the sex industry. They depend on this so-called problem for funding. It is in their interest to make it appear worse than it is. The vast majority of prostitutes, however, are not trafficked. They do this of their own volition.
No doubt there are some trafficked women but these statistics will tell you that they account for a tiny handful compared to the women who choose to be prostitutes to fund their lifestyles/college/etc.

Denerick

veritable wrote: »

You're not serious,are you?

What you're saying is that an adult woman should not be able to decide what she wants to do?

Oh for Gods sake :rolleyes:

That nasty state! How dare it force people who want to drive to pass a series of driving tests and take official driving licenses! The bastards!

Denerick

The Highwayman wrote: »

At 18 you can fight and die for your country, commit a crime and get the death penalty, drink booze or vote for a government but you dont think a man or woman has the sense to decide if they want to sell their body for cash?

There are many ways we can scar ourselves for life over things we consent to do at 18 but society deems us old enough and ugly enough to make our own minds up on these issues.

Other than getting paid for it whats the difference between consensual sex and consensual prostitution? Ignoring the argument that all sex is a form of prostitution.

Some, for right or wrong see it and lapdancing as a quick way to make major cash.

Yes, I think women who engage in prostitution have no self respect and symbolise everything rotten in our society. (Again this isn't necessarily them in the particular, but a society that forces women to sell their bodies due to lack of other opportunities) Does this mean that I think it should be banned or forced underground? No. I think it should be heavily regulated and not some ultra liberal free for all, leaving the individual woman open to abuse, neglect and trauma. How naive can you get?

Wolfe Tone

veritable wrote: »

You're not serious,are you?

What you're saying is that an adult woman should not be able to decide what she wants to do?

So people should be alllowed to decide to do whatever they want?


OK



Im a surgeon now. Chop chop time.

Permabear

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veritable

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So people should be alllowed to decide to do whatever they want?


OK



Im a surgeon now. Chop chop time.

What an utterly useless comparison you're trying to make.

Wolfe Tone

veritable wrote: »

What an utterly useless comparison you're trying to make.

No, not at all. These things need to be regulated. You stated:

What you're saying is that an adult woman should not be able to decide what she wants to do?

And the answer is: within reason.

veritable

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, I think women who engage in prostitution have no self respect and symbolise everything rotten in our society. (Again this isn't necessarily them in the particular, but a society that forces women to sell their bodies due to lack of other opportunities) Does this mean that I think it should be banned or forced underground? No. I think it should be heavily regulated and not some ultra liberal free for all, leaving the individual woman open to abuse, neglect and trauma. How naive can you get?

Admit that what you're saying is you want the State to control people's life decisions.
We've already shown that women who engage in prostitution do it voluntarily. How does society then force them to do it, as you are saying?
How does society even force somebody to do something? How is anybody responsible for their decisions then? Right, I get it. They shouldn't be allowed to make their decisions - the State should decide:rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

veritable wrote: »

Admit that what you're saying is you want the State to control people's life decisions.
We've already shown that women who engage in prostitution do it voluntarily. How does society then force them to do it, as you are saying?
How does society even force somebody to do something? How is anybody responsible for their decisions then? Right, I get it. They shouldn't be allowed to make their decisions - the State should decide:rolleyes:

The state makes decisions for us everyday. If it didnt what would happen?

veritable

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The state makes decisions for us everyday. If it didnt what would happen?

I agree with you - the State does make decisions for us everyday. The effect is reduced freedom for every man and woman on this beautiful island.
What would happen, you ask?
Govt would have less and less role. Taxes would be lower as we would no longer have to pay the govt to do things the market would do already. In short, we would be richer and freer.

Wolfe Tone

veritable wrote: »

I agree with you - the State does make decisions for us everyday. The effect is reduced freedom for every man and woman on this beautiful island.
What would happen, you ask?
Govt would have less and less role. Taxes would be lower as we would no longer have to pay the govt to do things the market would do already. In short, we would be richer and freer.

Thee would be absolute chaos.

veritable

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thee would be absolute chaos.

No, it wouldn't happen overnight. Govt would be phased out until it was kept at a minimum level.
There would be temporary uncertainty, but think of the benefits.
Anyway, we digress...

Denerick

Are you an anarchist? If so there really is no point in continuing with this. Its a bit like two people screaming at each other either side of a gigantic canyon, with a massive whirlwind swooping below and a hurricane building up above.

Dudess

Sadly I don't think the outcome of this study will stop the protestations of the contingent of women who think stripclubs are offensive and like to speak for all women (that's what's the offensive thing IMO) and want all stripclubs banned, but it's interesting: I certainly don't believe there is mass exploitation and abuse within the industry, but I do think there's the possibility of a bit of it, however it doesn't seem to be the case at all for the sample of people interviewed for this study.

Herbal Deity

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And the answer is: within reason.

Define "reason".

To my mind, the only restriction on one's freedoms should be on actions which harm others.

Rubik.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Prostitutes are often portrayed "as desperate women forced through untoward circumstance into a degrading and humiliating profession", not lap dancers. There is a world of difference between the two. I doubt similar research into prostitution would find no evidence of trafficking or coercion. So I don't think pointing out lap dancing does not equal the sex industry was being pedantic.

veritable

Denerick wrote: »

Are you an anarchist? If so there really is no point in continuing with this. Its a bit like two people screaming at each other either side of a gigantic canyon, with a massive whirlwind swooping below and a hurricane building up above.

No, I'm a minimum govt, free market libertarian.

Prostitutes are often portrayed "as desperate women forced through untoward circumstance into a degrading and humiliating profession", not lap dancers. There is a world of difference between the two. I doubt similar research into prostitution would find no evidence of trafficking or coercion. So I don't think pointing out lap dancing does not equal the sex industry was being pedantic.

See my earlier point. Prostitution is almost entirely the free choice of women (and men). I have seen research in the past which corroborates this but I can't source it for you right now.

Permabear

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Denerick

veritable wrote: »

No, I'm a minimum govt, free market libertarian.

Might as well be the same thing.

Ostrom

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'll have to take issue with this bit;

Dancers with degrees were in the minority, and most within this minority stated they were using lap dancing as a source of supplementary income. They also dont report (yet) satisfaction* by education level which will probably be more informative.

I'm a bit curious about where they sampled - they reported sampling 2 cities in the press release, so some detail on the cities or clubs (clientele, catchment etc) would help. As they say, the results released to the media are based on half-completed fieldwork, and the final report will not be ready until May 2011.

Permabear

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Valmont

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is it not ironic that you can still generalise about the customers but not the lapdancers themselves? I say this because the few people I know who have been to these clubs more than once tend to be the well-off hotshot business types.

Permabear

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Earthhorse

efla wrote: »

I'm a bit curious about where they sampled - they reported sampling 2 cities in the press release, so some detail on the cities or clubs (clientele, catchment etc) would help. As they say, the results released to the media are based on half-completed fieldwork, and the final report will not be ready until May 2011.

Me too. As I understand it, lap dancing, like prostitution, has different tiers. So you will have clubs where the women are well respected and there are no other services offered but then you will have the places where a blind eye is turned to such things. So the clubs sampled will matter (though, speaking personally, I won't know from the names or any other identifier which is which).

In the article linked to we have this:

One dancer told researchers: "There's not enough security. I know of girls who have been raped and abused at work. You cannot go to the police as you are a stripper, so there's no legal standing."

Quite an extreme occupational hazard for anyone to endure so it doesn't really change my opinion of lap dancing one way or the other.

Rubik.

Rubik. wrote: »

Prostitutes are often portrayed "as desperate women forced through untoward circumstance into a degrading and humiliating profession", not lap dancers. There is a world of difference between the two. I doubt similar research into prostitution would find no evidence of trafficking or coercion. So I don't think pointing out lap dancing does not equal the sex industry was being pedantic.

Actually you will find that most people group Lapdancers in with any other part of the sex industry. When I dated a lapdancer in Australia, my mother got irate demanding to know why I was dating a hooker. And my mother has never met, seen, or spoken to a lapdancer before in her life. These kind of attitudes are common. God knows, I was exposed to enough of them (with my gf on the receiving end) while we were dating.

As for the actual difference it depends on place (club, city, country etc) and the women involved. While my gf hadn't sold herself that way, I knew for a fact that others in her club did, and did so regularly. Some do and some don't. The offers are made by customers, and the temptation is there to accept. Whether they accept or not, comes down to the individuals perception of what they're currently doing versus the leap to prostitution.

Oh, and my gf had a Masters Degree in Media Studies, and continued her lapdancing career (started to pay her college fee's) since she could earn more during her twenties than she would from working, and still be able to turn to a conventional career when her looks became less effective.

donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

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I earned $48k per year in Australia. My gf worked 6 months during the year, and earned roughly $63k for those 6 months. The rest of the year she worked in various media related outlets building related experience and providing a "legitimate" background to tell her family what she did. And she was a very successful dancer with a few very rich customers as favorites. Others stood to make far less though.

Rubik.

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually you will find that most people group Lapdancers in with any other part of the sex industry.

OK, but my point was research findings on lap dancing should not be taken as research findings on the entire sex industry.

Rubik.

Rubik. wrote: »

OK, but my point was research findings on lap dancing should not be taken as research findings on the entire sex industry.

Of course. The sex industry is huge.

Mr. Loverman

veritable wrote: »

The various taxpayer-funded womens groups need to create a situation where they are needed to help with this massive problem of trafficked women and women forced into the sex industry. They depend on this so-called problem for funding. It is in their interest to make it appear worse than it is.

Spot on.

Gyalist

The Stripper Myth

CDfm

When I see arguments about lap dancers I am reminded about prohibition in the USA in the 1930's - so we have a drinks industry which is quite respectable and is celebrated as part of our culture.

We analyse it and discuss the issues but really -its individual choice.

Why it should surprise anyone that a culture that has a drinks industry, horse racing and greyhound racing should have an adult entertainment industry is beyond my comprehension. So that the people who work in it are happy shouldnt surprise anyone.

When the arguments are stripped away what this study shows is that the lapdancers studied do not conform to the stereotype and the usual suspects are delivered as arguments, trafficing, drugs etc when the study highlighted that the women were well educated and in it for the money. I know a lapdancer who is like the women in the study. So the conclusions the "professor" made were not news to me but may have been to her.

So while I may not think its a great career choice and am not a patron of any such establishment, I can't see why it gets such stick.

There is an interesting website here on Feminists for Freedom of Expression http://www.ffeusa.org/ -its a US lobby group for sex workers and it is fairly scathing about the arguments of the Anti-Lobby.

Isn't it about time that we listen to the women who are active in the industry rather than regulate without listening.

Is the surprise that they do not fit the stereotype, and may not be disadvantaged so unpalatable.

Mr. Loverman

I think it basically comes down to the fact that a lot of women would hate to be a stripper, and aren't capable of understanding that not everyone thinks like them or should think like them.

It's the same nonsense that happens with religion: I think this way so you should too!