From Atheist to Priest

Onesimus

Interesting story here I thought you might like....considering getting the book myself.

http://www.sophiainstitute.com/client/email_ads/FB_FR_diary.html

kelly1

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Just goes to show the power of grace and atonement on behalf of another.

Zombrex

Is the idea that you can make a deal with God where you give up your life in return for God converting your husband a particularly Christian idea? It seemed a bit odd

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Is the idea that you can make a deal with God where you give up your life in return for God converting your husband a particularly Christian idea? It seemed a bit odd

She was dying of cancer anyway so I doubt she wanted to die or give up her life. So she offered all her suffering as atonement to God in the hope that God would grant him the grace of conversion. The value of offering of one's suffering in union with those of Christ is certainly not a new idea and is sound Catholic doctrine.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

She was dying of cancer anyway so I doubt she wanted to die or give up her life. So she offered all her suffering as atonement to God in the hope that God would grant him the grace of conversion. The value of offering of one's suffering in union with those of Christ is certainly not a new idea and is sound Catholic doctrine.

Haven't read the book itself, but from the description here it seems she did

There I discovered that Elisabeth had concluded with God
a kind of pact, vowing to exchange her life
for my return to the Faith.

The impression you get from that is that she believed God had given her cancer to take her life (or at least killed her with the cancer she already had, the time scale is not clear from the passage when she entered this pact with God) in exchange for his conversion.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Haven't read the book itself, but from the description here it seems she did

There I discovered that Elisabeth had concluded with God
a kind of pact, vowing to exchange her life
for my return to the Faith.

The impression you get from that is that she believed God had given her cancer to take her life (or at least killed her with the cancer she already had) in exchange for his conversion.

The way I see it, she could have prayed for her own cure but instead she accepted the suffering for her husband's conversion. She could have complained about her suffering which would have lessened its value but she accepted it willingly.

NothingMan

I would say it is more to do with bereavement and needing the assurance or comfort of them going somewhere.

I learned the word Atheist in secondary school form a friend who was adamantly atheist, very into physics and science in general and a very logical thinker. I knew I didn't believe but I never knew there was a term for it, not that it needed one.

When my friends grandmother died he wavered in his stance and when his Mother died a few years later he changed his stance (not to catholic just to Agnostic or perhaps spiritual, in that he believes in something). I can understand that. He's always been a very emotional person and very close to those 2 people and needing the comfort of a possibility of an afterlife and God to take care of them makes sense.

That's just my opinion but I have thought about the scenario happening to me (touch wood a long time yet) and I don't think my atheist outlook would change. My lack of belief is a not only based on science and logic that leaves a scary blackhole where a god should be but it makes sense to me. Life makes more sense without a god and I'm happier in my lack of belief. I would be happy knowing my loved one lived a full life and hopefully had no major regrets and now has nothing more to worry about.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

The way I see it, she could have prayed for her own cure but instead she accepted the suffering for her husband's conversion.

Again that doesn't seem to be what is being described here.

Rather than argue about that theoretically assume my interpretation is correct, that this woman said to God you can have my life if you convert my husband.

Is that in line with Christianity in your opinion?

kelly1

NothingMan wrote: »

.......... Life makes more sense without a god and I'm happier in my lack of belief.

That's easy to say for someone who isn't poor or abused. If there is no God, what is the value of a life full of abuse and suffering and death in a gutter as is often the case?

Wicknight wrote: »

Rather than argue about that theoretically assume my interpretation is correct, that this woman said to God you can have my life if you convert my husband.

Is that in line with Christianity in your opinion?

I think it is. "There is no greater love than to lay one's life down for another...". If her death meant the salvation of her husband, then it is very worthwhile and noble.

NothingMan

kelly1 wrote: »

That's easy to say for someone who isn't poor or abused. If there is no God, what is the value of a life full of abuse and suffering and death in a gutter as is often the case?

If anything that reinforces my belief. People in bad situations who feel they don't have anything will seek comfort where they can find it. Similarly with bereavement. I can understand it but it still doesn't mean they are right or wrong. A certain demographic having more faith than another is interesting socially but certainly not a stronger case for religion or God, one way or the other.

kelly1

NothingMan wrote: »

If anything that reinforces my belief. People in bad situations who feel they don't have anything will seek comfort where they can find it. Similarly with bereavement. I can understand it but it still doesn't mean they are right or wrong. A certain demographic having more faith than another is interesting socially but certainly not a stronger case for religion or God, one way or the other.

My point is that the existence of God brings worth and meaning to suffering, without God, suffering only has negative value.

NothingMan

kelly1 wrote: »

My point is that the existence of God brings worth and meaning to suffering, without God, suffering only has negative value.

I know what you mean, but coming from an Atheist stance that makes no sense to me personally. From my side it is only the illusion of worth & meaning because someday it will all be better ie. after death. I would rather enjoy the life I have now and get myself out of the situation I am suffering. I don't understand that view for religious people either, because surely if God gave you this life then you should make the most of it. Maybe the bible contradicts what I'm saying and you're suppose to suffer in life to earn eternal rewards in heaven, but if it says anything similar to that it's another reason I refuse to give it any credence.

kelly1

NothingMan wrote: »

I know what you mean, but coming from an Atheist stance that makes no sense to me personally. From my side it is only the illusion of worth & meaning because someday it will all be better ie. after death. I would rather enjoy the life I have now and get myself out of the situation I am suffering. I don't understand that view for religious people either, because surely if God gave you this life then you should make the most of it. Maybe the bible contradicts what I'm saying and you're suppose to suffer in life to earn eternal rewards in heaven, but if it says anything similar to that it's another reason I refuse to give it any credence.

God doesn't want us to suffer but the fact is we humans sin and it's sin that brings suffering into the world, not God. All suffering is the result of sin I believe.

Some of us choose to offer our suffering up to God to atone for the sins of others which brings personal merit and removes obstacles to God's grace for oneself and others.

Onesimus

Wicknight wrote: »

Is the idea that you can make a deal with God where you give up your life in return for God converting your husband a particularly Christian idea? It seemed a bit odd

Yes it is Christian. To lay down ones life for your friends. Just as Jesus offered his life on a Cross as a sacrifice for our sins, so too the Christian can do the same thing, only its in the will of God whether or not to accept that request. To the Christian there is no such thing as dying ( even though we use that term here on earth ). Going to heaven is much more preferable if its in the will of God that we go earliar than usual. Jesus is the author of life and he gives and takes as he pleases, for example he took one of the visionaries in fatima to heaven while he was still a child, but he left others to stay where they were. Jesus knows all things and our capacity in this life.

I remember a story also of St.Rita how she prayed for her family to be taken now so she could worship the Lord as they were getting in the way of things. Same with a Saint whose fellow sisters in the convent were causing her hassle and obstructing the work she had to do for the Lord, so the Lord in his mercy for this saint and the sisters who tormented her decided to take them earliar than usual. Its the great mystery of God.

NothingMan

Onesimus wrote: »

Yes it is Christian. To lay down ones life for your friends.

But this person was dying anyway and decided to do something because of it. Like me donating my body to research/organ donation when I die. Sure you're already dying why not make a deal while you can. The outcome for you is still the same.

Doesn't seem very christian to me either. Now if she was healthy and did it...

Onesimus

NothingMan wrote: »

But this person was dying anyway and decided to do something because of it. Like me donating my body to research/organ donation when I die. Sure you're already dying why not make a deal while you can. The outcome for you is still the same.

Doesn't seem very christian to me either. Now if she was healthy and did it...

either way its still Christian to offer up ones sufferings in Union with Jesus as a prayer to heal someone else.

At first glance of the story I thought she was struck with cancer after she made the request. Looks like she already had it. God forsees all things and knows all things, so we leave it in the mystery of his will.

NothingMan

Onesimus wrote: »

God forsees all things and knows all things, so we leave it in the mystery of his will.

Indeed, can't argue with that. Now I remember why I stopped posting here. Goodbye.

Fanny Cradock

NothingMan wrote: »

Indeed, can't argue with that. Now I remember why I stopped posting here. Goodbye.

Goodbye!

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Rather than argue about that theoretically assume my interpretation is correct, that this woman said to God you can have my life if you convert my husband.

Is that in line with Christianity in your opinion?

Indeed I thought christians always said it's god's choice when we born/die so making that kind of bargain seems a bit unchristian to me. God can take her life if god wants and god doesn't have to do anything in return...
not to mention christians are supposed to have free will to choose god anyway??

I mean I think the idea of dedicating your suffering to someone else is fine and christian but that's not entirely what was going on here

Onesimus

NothingMan wrote: »

Indeed, can't argue with that. Now I remember why I stopped posting here. Goodbye.

Well the mystery of suffering is a difficult pill to swallow for most Christians. most of us often are thinking of life after death and none of us ever seem to be grappling with the question ''is there a life BEFORE death?''

For most of us life before death entails breathing and being alive but this isnt life before death, I met a lad who was cured of his cancer once and now he's a drug addict and his life is all over the place. We are taught by society to cling to this life and that death is a horrible thing that nobody should endure, but what about ( like the lad I've just mentioned ) the death of the soul? even fearing death is silly, how can we fear about what we do not know? it is not the unknown ( afterlife ) we are afraid of, because we cant fear what we dont know, its the loss of the ''what we already know'' that we fear. having fear and anxiety is not what I call life.

I'd rather have cancer and be happy and fearless as to whether I'm gonna die tonight tomorrow etc etc....than to have cancer and be depressed. wouldnt you? and yet we are told that being anxious and depressed is only human HAHAHA my goodness how gullible we are. You know what it means to be human? to not give a fiddlers fart whether your gonna die or be crushed by an airplane, or hit by a car. to be human is to be happy in the Lord. Such happiness though cannot be achieved without the sacraments of the Church, but try even telling that to a Christian Catholic. :rolleyes:

Onesimus

bluewolf wrote: »

Indeed I thought christians always said it's god's choice when we born/die so making that kind of bargain seems a bit unchristian to me. God can take her life if god wants and god doesn't have to do anything in return...
not to mention christians are supposed to have free will to choose god anyway??

I mean I think the idea of dedicating your suffering to someone else is fine and christian but that's not entirely what was going on here

We can pray to Jesus and like the loving brother he is he will respond to our prayer if its in his will, because as a loving Father knows whats best for us in spiritual terms. But as humans we dont see the spiritual and only think of whats best for us in physical terms and demand that. God however does not see the body but looks at the soul.

Often you'll hear people saying they asked God for something for years and never got it and were upset and didnt know what Gods response is. But did they ever stop and ponder for a moment that God might of said ''NO''? :pac::D

NothingMan

I know I said goodbye, but some decent points were raised.

Onesimus wrote: »

we cant fear what we dont know, its the loss of the ''what we already know'' that we fear. having fear and anxiety is not what I call life.

Makes some sense.

I'd rather have cancer and be happy and fearless as to whether I'm gonna die tonight tomorrow etc etc....than to have cancer and be depressed. wouldnt you?

Agreed.

and yet we are told that being anxious and depressed is only human HAHAHA my goodness how gullible we are.

Not very, it clearly is human as every human experiences it on some level.

You know what it means to be human? to not give a fiddlers fart whether your gonna die or be crushed by an airplane, or hit by a car. to be human is to be happy

Completely agree. Happiness, I believe, is the most important thing in the world.

in the Lord. Such happiness though cannot be achieved without the sacraments of the Church, but try even telling that to a Christian Catholic. :rolleyes:

Sorry, you've lost me. My happiness doesn't require any stipulations.

Onesimus

Onesimus wrote: »

We can pray to Jesus and like the loving brother he is he will respond to our prayer if its in his will, because as a loving Father knows whats best for us in spiritual terms. But as humans we dont see the spiritual and only think of whats best for us in physical terms and demand that. God however does not see the body but looks at the soul.

Often you'll hear people saying they asked God for something for years and never got it and were upset and didnt know what Gods response is. But did they ever stop and ponder for a moment that God might of said ''NO''? :pac::D

What has that got to do with anything I wrote?
Or are you just agreeing with me?

SonOfAdam

Onesimus wrote:

I remember a story also of St.Rita how she prayed for her family to be taken now so she could worship the Lord as they were getting in the way of things. Same with a Saint whose fellow sisters in the convent were causing her hassle and obstructing the work she had to do for the Lord, so the Lord in his mercy for this saint and the sisters who tormented her decided to take them earliar than usual. Its the great mystery of God.

Sounds like a lovely woman this Rita. Praying that someone will be taken out because they cause you hassle - God is more likely to change your heart toward them than take them away so you don't have to deal with them.

Onesimus

Not very, it clearly is human as every human experiences it on some level

.

Says who? are you ( like the rest of us ) another victim of Societies brainwashing? sounds like it. that herd mentality ''everyone else gets upset, why cant I be upset?'' ''the man on the tele with the lovely suit and tie and his phd in upsetness, ( who because of his studys I assume knows more than I do.'' ) has told me that being unhappy and anxious is perfectly normal, and like the gullible human that I am I become brainwashed and accept the fact that its ok the be that way and I never experience this beautiful gift of God called life.

Thats the Teaching of Jesus, to take our old selves, nail it to the cross and be born anew in him as a new creature who is free from the world and its ridicoulos traps that entice us into being depressed and because they carry a badge that says ''I'm an expert, I know what I'm talking about'' the hypnosis gets even stronger and we fall into their trap and like the dumb cows of the field we get led right into such slaughter of the self.

Onesimus

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Sounds like a lovely woman this Rita. Praying that someone will be taken out because they cause you hassle - God is more likely to change your heart toward them than take them away so you don't have to deal with them.

Well you must remember scripture says that his ways are not our ways, he could of done it the other way, but hey....who am I or even you to speak on behalf of God?

Onesimus

bluewolf wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything I wrote?
Or are you just agreeing with me?

No I'm not agreeing with you, I'm responding to your post that prayer governs God, even if it isnt in Gods will we can pray all the harder and he might just change his mind.

NothingMan

Onesimus wrote: »

.

Says who? are you ( like the rest of us ) another victim of Societies brainwashing? sounds like it. that herd mentality ''everyone else gets upset, why cant I be upset?'' ''the man on the tele with the lovely suit and tie and his phd in upsetness, ( who because of his studys I assume knows more than I do.'' ) has told me that being unhappy and anxious is perfectly normal, and like the gullible human that I am I become brainwashed and accept the fact that its ok the be that way and I never experience this .

Thats the Teaching of Jesus, to take our old selves, nail it to the cross and be born anew in him as a new creature who is free from the world and its ridicoulos traps that entice us into being depressed and because they carry a badge that says ''I'm an expert, I know what I'm talking about'' the hypnosis gets even stronger and we fall into their trap and like the dumb cows of the field we get led right into such slaughter of the self.

Who's brainwashing me? I get upset if something bad happens. I get a liitle anxious about a job interview. It's the most normal thing ever.

Then again, you believe everything is as it is because it came from the bible or thechurch. Sounds like I'm not the one being brainwashed.

Onesimus

SonOfAdam wrote: »

Sounds like a lovely woman this Rita. Praying that someone will be taken out because they cause you hassle - God is more likely to change your heart toward them than take them away so you don't have to deal with them.

Also we must remember that St.Rita loved them, her prayer wasnt a vengeful one or an act of hatred towards them, she already loved them.they just happened to get in the way of her worship of the Lord so God being the jealous Lord he is decided in his mercy to take them and leave Rita free to do her worship.

Onesimus

Who's brainwashing me? I get upset if something bad happens. I get a liitle anxious about a job interview. It's the most normal thing ever.

you see we are so brainwashed sometimes that nobody can ever get through that thick headed skull of ours....ok then Nothing man, go ahead and be upset :rolleyes::D:pac:

Then again, you believe everything is as it is because it came from the bible or thechurch. Sounds like I'm not the one being brainwashed.

Brainwashed with the truth, whats wrong with that?

SonOfAdam

Onesimus wrote:

even if it isnt in Gods will we can pray all the harder and he might just change his mind

The God who doesn't change, who has no shadow of turning and yet your prayers can change his mind ?

Onesimus

Onesimus wrote: »

Also we must remember that St.Rita loved them, her prayer wasnt a vengeful one or an act of hatred towards them, she already loved them.they just happened to get in the way of her worship of the Lord so God being the jealous Lord he is decided in his mercy to take them and leave Rita free to do her worship.

lol
"I love you but you're getting in the way, so you need to die"
nice and creepy

I still dont get the jealous thing but probs another argument

Fanny Cradock

Onesimus wrote: »

No I'm not agreeing with you, I'm responding to your post that prayer governs God, even if it isnt in Gods will we can pray all the harder and he might just change his mind.

It's a matter of theological debate if God actually changes his mind (What about omnipotence?). Or if talking about "change" (moving from "present" to "future" and by implication invoking a "past") actually makes any sense when discussing a timeless being.

Besides all this, if I change my mind it's usually because I've received some information I wasn't aware of before or I've seen it in a different light. Can you say the same about God?

Zombrex

Onesimus wrote: »

We are taught by society to cling to this life and that death is a horrible thing that nobody should endure, but what about ( like the lad I've just mentioned ) the death of the soul?

We are not taught this by society, we have a strong evolutionary instinct to survive and not to die, and to protect those we care about from danger and death.

This is why we teach our children to look when crossing the road and why we spend billions curing disease. It is also why humans like puppies (dogs manipulate the visual instincts we have that trigger the protection response for children)

I'm not quite sure what you are advocating but if it is that we should not care about dying that seems a rather dangerous and irresponsible thing to preach.

Onesimus wrote: »

even fearing death is silly, how can we fear about what we do not know? it is not the unknown ( afterlife ) we are afraid of, because we cant fear what we dont know, its the loss of the ''what we already know'' that we fear. having fear and anxiety is not what I call life.

That is some what contradictory, since if you didn't have a natural instinctive fear death you would probably be dead by now.

And being dead is not what I call life.

kelly1

Onesimus wrote: »

No I'm not agreeing with you, I'm responding to your post that prayer governs God, even if it isnt in Gods will we can pray all the harder and he might just change his mind.

I don't think anyone changes God's mind because God knows the future. But it is His will that we pray to him for our needs and God's course of action is dependant on our prayers or lack of. God doesn't decide one thing and the change His mind as a result of our prayers. God is omnipotent.

God wants us to depend on His providence and regardless of what we do, providence will help us towards salvation. When we stray, God takes corrective action.

kelly1

To all Christians responding in this thread and others, I urge you to be sure of what you're saying and if you speculate, say so. If you haven't studied theology, it's far too easy to get tied up in knots when asked difficult questions by skeptics.

The other difficult we have here is that theologies differ among Christians. And I think we as Christians are a bit slow to challenge each other.
It's messy...

Just my 2c

Onesimus

Wicknight wrote: »

We are not taught this by society, we have a strong evolutionary instinct to survive and not to die, and to protect those we care about from danger and death.

This is why we teach our children to look when crossing the road and why we spend billions curing disease. It is also why humans like puppies (dogs manipulate the visual instincts we have that trigger the protection response for children)

I'm not quite sure what you are advocating but if it is that we should not care about dying that seems a rather dangerous and irresponsible thing to preach.



That is some what contradictory, since if you didn't have a natural instinctive fear death you would probably be dead by now.

And being dead is not what I call life.

I'm not telling people to not take precautions in crossing the road, or to do their best to prevent cancer, but to do this action without anxiety or fear.

I'm not telling people to go ahead and just die, I'm saying live, but do it without fear and anxiety and no that there is no such thing as death. But try telling people this and they freak out, suddenly their whole soul and body gets a shock, because they have been taught that to be anxious is normal. If I'm in the line in the post office and someone skips the que, I take all the action needed to correct the wrong, but I do it without anxiety, without anger and without hatred or fear of the person. Am I making myself clear enough here? we could spend all this on this topic its rather enjoyable.

Kelly1 you put what I wanted to say in simple terms, that God responds to our prayers. Thank you!

Onesimus

kelly1 wrote: »

To all Christians responding in this thread and others, I urge you to be sure of what you're saying and if you speculate, say so. If you haven't studied theology, it's far too easy to get tied up in knots when asked difficult questions by skeptics.

The other difficult we have here is that theologies differ among Christians. And I think we as Christians are a bit slow to challenge each other.
It's messy...

Just my 2c

It's an enjoyable discussion all the same though. I love to hear what God has to say through Christians and non-Christians alike, life is a whole process of learning.

kelly1

Onesimus wrote: »

It's an enjoyable discussion all the same though. I love to hear what God has to say through Christians and non-Christians alike, life is a whole process of learning.

Enjoyable but inconsistent doctrine is a big stumbling block for unbelievers. When inconsistencies arise, it looks like we're making it up as we go along. I'm basically talking about the importance of Faith AND Reason. Both are necessary to do theology.

Onesimus

kelly1 wrote: »

Enjoyable but inconsistent doctrine is a big stumbling block for unbelievers. When inconsistencies arise, it looks like we're making it up as we go along. I'm basically talking about the importance of Faith AND Reason. Both are necessary to do theology.

Yes but I dont see how what I was saying was inconsistent with the following scripture verse ''perfect love casts out all fear''. If we are living in fear we are not living in love.

kelly1

Onesimus wrote: »

Yes but I dont see how what I was saying was inconsistent with the following scripture verse ''perfect love casts out all fear''. If we are living in fear we are not living in love.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was talking about you. I was making the general point that inconsistencies that we see on this forum among the various Christian posters, make Christianity look unreasonable/fabricated. I probably should have started another thread! Sorry.

Onesimus

kelly1 wrote: »

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was talking about you. I was making the general point that inconsistencies that we see on this forum among the various Christian posters, make Christianity look unreasonable/fabricated. I probably should have started another thread! Sorry.

My fault Kelly1 I'm quite tired this evening and I'm not reading things properly.

I agree though, it can be more damaging to the faith when we dont know what we are waffling about