Renting, leaving and cleaning. Whats the norm?

Himselfe

So I've been renting an apartment (a very nice one) for the past 14 months and have now decided to leave. Have found a new place and am ready to move. My current landlord, who has been nothing but perfect up to now, had reasonably requested that I make the apartment available for viewings this week, which I agreed to.

She also mentioned that she would like the place to be arranged the way it was when we moved in so that prospective tenants would know what was and wasn't included when they viewed the place etc. This was a bit of a pain as we had to move out some extra furniture and other bits we had packed into boxes ready for the move, but we obliged grudgingly since we had gotten on so well and she supplied us with a storage unit pretty much next door for this purpose at no charge.

Unfortunately we didn't get the time recently to give the place a good going over and a proper spic and span clean, which is what we intended on doing before we left. So she said that she would call in a cleaner for us to do it while we were at work and mentioned it would cost about €40 ish.

This has now ended up coming to €100!! And she expects us to pay her. I was a little miffed to pay anything for cleaning at all, but €100 for something I could have done myself before I moved out seems a bit much to me.

It seems to me that she is getting us to pay for the house to be professionally cleaned for the next tenants who move in after us.

Is this ok? Ive never had to do it before. Just looking for opinions.

Ste.phen

This comes up a lot, they shouldn't have deducted anything for a cleaner.
The deposit is there to cover damage which couldn't reasonably be called 'wear and tear', not general cleaning. Usually the advice here is to ask for the entire deposit back, and then file a claim with the PRTB afterwards. It'll help if you have photos of the condition of the place when you moved out, so the LL doesn't claim it was damaged

mikemac

40 euro was never a realistic quote for an apartment, 100 euro is closer to the rate

I suppose for next time if you have a computer and digital camera takes photos on the day you move in.
Photos of everywhere, take hundreds of them, costs nothing extra with a digital camera

Do the same when moving out.
If the landlord starts messing you just ask them to list the issues and offer to show the photos you have.
Seems to work, protect yourself for next time

gurramok

Seamus is right.

No its not ok. You are not responsible for a professional clean. Tell her you will not be taken to the cleaners and quote the rules as laid out from the PRTB on such issues.

djimi

Im not sure Id even be over the moon at the idea of having to rearrange the place at their request. Its still your apartment until the day you move out; if they want to show the place before you leave then they must respect that you still live there. Unless you have completely altered the place beyond recognition then I think they are being a bit cheeky tbh.

Himselfe

Thanks for the replies. I'm beginning to think she's slightly taking the piss with this. We just agreed to a quick cleaning so she could show the place to prospective tenants. And she also hasn't mentioned anything about the deposit. As far as I can understand she wants this in cash to pay the cleaner directly.

We're not actually moving out until the end of next week, by which time we would have had the place spotless, as I always have done in the past when moving from rented accommodation.

Basically, the general feeling I'm getting is that its not my responsibility to have the place cleaned beyond a reasonable level when I move out.

convert

Himselfe wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I'm beginning to think she's slightly taking the piss with this. We just agreed to a quick cleaning so she could show the place to prospective tenants. And she also hasn't mentioned anything about the deposit. As far as I can understand she wants this in cash to pay the cleaner directly.

We're not actually moving out until the end of next week, by which time we would have had the place spotless, as I always have done in the past when moving from rented accommodation.

Basically, the general feeling I'm getting is that its not my responsibility to have the place cleaned beyond a reasonable level when I move out.

From your initial post I had thought that you were no longer living in the apartment and that the landlord was claiming you hadn't left the apartment in an adequate state when you left.

However, you've not moved out; you're still living there, so the landlord hiring in a professional cleaner to clean the apartment in order to show it to prospective tenants is not your responsibility. As long as the place was relatively clean and tidy (not spotless or perfect) the landlord has no right to charge you for cleaning an apartment in which you are still a tenant.

They expected an awful lot of you regarding changing around an apartment which was, in effect, yours until the lease expires. If I was you, I'd inform the landlord that you will not be paying the cleaning fee.

Before you move out, clean the apartment and take lots and lots of photos to show that the place is in a good condition so that the landlord cannot say that something was wrong and hence retain a quantity of your deposit.

I'd also advise contacting the PRTB to seek their advice regarding this. I suspect that if you don't pay the cleaner your landlord will try and retain a portion of your deposit in order to cover the costs.

Maj Malfunction

OP you have been more than reasonable and accommodating by moving a portion of your stuff out before the end of your tenancy and allowing viewings. Any LL should be delighted to have a tenant like yourself.

Your LL is taking the piss completely by trying to charge you €100 for hiring a professional cleaning company, time to dig your heels in on this one.

Perhaps the LL hasn't kept your deposit in a separate account like all LL should do and has the money spent and is now looking for an excuse :eek:

OS119

Maj Malfunction wrote: »

Perhaps the LL hasn't kept your deposit in a separate account like all LL should do and has the money spent and is now looking for an excuse :eek:

that would be my view - you've been ashtonishingly co-operative over the furniture and layout of the flat, and perhaps this issue over the presentation clean is an indication that she's either taken your previous co-operation as a licence to take the piss, or that she's spent the deposit and thinks she can bluff her way out of giving it back.

while you almost certainly have a clause in your lease about needing to be co-operative about viewings in the last month or so of you living there, i'd (as a both a landlord and tenant) suggest that 'co-operative' doesn't cover you moving half your suff out of your home, and nor does it mean you paying for the flat to be cleaned to a higher standard than 'normal'.

having the place looking 'showhome' rather than 'people living here' is entirely for the LL's benefit, not yours - so you should not have to put your habd in your pocket for it.

Addendum: after 14 months, the LL should be having a deep clean and probably a low level decoration before a new tenant moves in - this stunt suggests she's probably going to try and avoid that as well...

Kimia

Don't mean to hijack, and it's relevant, but what happens if you've signed a lease that says you must pay for a professional cleaning at the end of your tenancy?

My agency are a shower of d*cks and basically stood over me while I signed the lease so I didn't get a proper read of it.. But I'm fairly sure that whatever I signed doesn't overrule my statutory rights? Or am I wrong.

djimi

Kimia wrote: »

Don't mean to hijack, and it's relevant, but what happens if you've signed a lease that says you must pay for a professional cleaning at the end of your tenancy?

My agency are a shower of d*cks and basically stood over me while I signed the lease so I didn't get a proper read of it.. But I'm fairly sure that whatever I signed doesn't overrule my statutory rights? Or am I wrong.

If youve signed it then youve agreed to it. Never sign anything without reading it first, no matter how much pressure is put on you.

OS119

djimi wrote: »

If youve signed it then youve agreed to it.

not quite - you can't be legally held to something you've agreed to if it falls outside the law, but i don't think housing law says your lease cannot say that you have to pay for a professional clean at the end of your tenancy.

Sorry Kimia, i think you've been stitched up here - imho a proffesional clean between tenancies is, like 'wear and tear' repairs and redecorationg, the landlords job, and it falls on him to pay for it - however i'm not sure how you could get out of it given that the law doesn't say he can't put it in the lease, and you did sign the lease.

OTOH, i'm pretty sure PRTB says he can't take cleaning costs out of your deposit, so if you stand your ground his only action may be to take you to civil court to recover the money - and it's for you to judge whether you think he'd do that for the money involved. contact PRTB for better information...

big lesson: if the LL/Agent won't let you take the lease for a coffee down the road so you can read it before you sign it, you don't want to be their tenants.

murphym7

This is the maddest thing I have ever heard in relation to a rental property.

A landlord #1 asking you to rearange the furniture, before you move out, to make the place attaractive to new tennants. Its pretty easy to tell somone, "this actually does not coem with the appartment" I would have absouletly said no and may even follow that up with "feck off you saucy b8st8rd"

A landlord who wants #2 to have the appartment professioanlly cleaned to show new tenants, while you still live there!!, = "feck off you saucy b8st8rd"

And fianlly #3 to charge you the €100 it cost to clean the apartment, again before you even have moved out!!! = "feck off you saucy b8st8rd"

This clown has not one leg to stand on - this will be the easiest claim ever - in fact I would get on to threashold and get a responce from them on the whole €100 thing and then just show this to the clown of a landlord. You won't even need to make a claim, she will give you all the deposit back.

Osgoodisgood

The LL is under the mistaken belief that you need to contribute to her task of finding new tenants. She is wrong.

Merch

Its not unreasonable for a tenant to clean their own mess up for when they leave.
Would you clean someone elses mess?

http://www.prtb.ie/2009%20Disputes/TRIBUNALS%202009/2009/TR176.DR766.2009/Tribunal%20Report.pdf
here is an example of where the PRTb adjudicated at least partially in favour of the landlord regarding payments for cleaning

convert

Merch wrote: »

Its not unreasonable for a tenant to clean their own mess up for when they leave.
Would you clean someone elses mess?

The OP is still living in the apartment, and isn't moving out until the end of next week. The landlord is asking them to pay for a cleaner who cleaned the apartment before potential tenants came to view the place.

Merch

convert wrote: »

The OP is still living in the apartment, and isn't moving out until the end of next week. The landlord is asking them to pay for a cleaner who cleaned the apartment before potential tenants came to view the place.

Ok well I wouldn't find it reasonable to be charged for cleaning before hand but it seems she agreed to it albeit at 40 euro, they shouldnt have agreed that in the first place,
I would not however find it unreasonable to have a property as it was received within the last week, ie layout and clean, on the basis it should be quite clean all the time and in the last week Id expect it to be pretty much sorted as to how it was handed over.

convert

Merch wrote: »

I would not however find it unreasonable to have a property as it was received within the last week, ie layout and clean, on the basis it should be quite clean all the time and in the last week Id expect it to be pretty much sorted as to how it was handed over.

I would have been really p***ed with my last landlord if they asked me to move most of the stuff out of my room before the last day, as I worked from home a lot and needed a desk, book, shelving, etc. in my room until practically the last day. I showed my room with all the 'extra' furniture in it, ensuring to inform the prospective tenants that they would not be in the room when they moved in. When showing the rest of the house, I informed them that the microwave, clothes dryer, TV and surround sound system, and a quite a few cooking utensils were mine and would be coming with me.

My room was clean and tidy, but in no way was it perfect. I cleaned it the morning I moved out, after I had put all my 'extra' furniture into the cars.

My landlord did not have a problem, nor did any of the tenants. If my landlord had asked me to either move my furniture or have the place in perfect condition, I'd have told them exactly where to go. I don't mind moving some items, or having the place reasonably clean and tidy, but to have it in the condition in which the tenant will find it when they move in is a bit much.

Merch

convert wrote: »

I would have been really p***ed with my last landlord if they asked me to move most of the stuff out of my room before the last day, as I worked from home a lot and needed a desk, book, shelving, etc. in my room until practically the last day. I showed my room with all the 'extra' furniture in it, ensuring to inform the prospective tenants that they would not be in the room when they moved in. When showing the rest of the house, I informed them that the microwave, clothes dryer, TV and surround sound system, and a quite a few cooking utensils were mine and would be coming with me.

My room was clean and tidy, but in no way was it perfect. I cleaned it the morning I moved out, after I had put all my 'extra' furniture into the cars.

My landlord did not have a problem, nor did any of the tenants. If my landlord had asked me to either move my furniture or have the place in perfect condition, I'd have told them exactly where to go. I don't mind moving some items, or having the place reasonably clean and tidy, but to have it in the condition in which the tenant will find it when they move in is a bit much.

Why did you show and let the room?

Well I agree, reasonably clean and items like furniture moved to where they where let.
ie had to help someone move a bed that was moved downstairs on them, dissassembling,reassembling,moving it was a time consuming pain and it wouldnt have looked good for new tenants.

exaisle

I think this is a question of timing.

If the landlord wanted the place clean enough for viewing before the end of the tenancy, then it's her responsibility to pay for it. If the OP was prepared to clean it to the standard he moved in, he only has to do so on or before the tenancy expires, ie, the day he moves out.

The landlord had no right to expect the tenant to move furniture and facilitate viewing before he moved out. In agreeing to do so, the tenant has acted beyond what his lease would require. The landlord is acting unfairly and should pay the cost of the cleaning herself. She has gone beyond what the lease allows her to do in acting the way she has.

I'd advise the tenant to bring the matter to the PRTB....but be ready for a long wait.

convert

Merch wrote: »

Why did you show and let the room?

Because that's how it worked in the house. The tenant moving out finds a new tenant to replace them, and at the viewing the prospective tenants get to meet the current housemates and vice versa. Much better than the landlord simply sticking in the first person who they find.

Oh, and I mentioned to the landlord that all my 'extras' would be in the house during the viewing, and they said that was completely fine as I would be living there for another three weeks.

Merch

convert wrote: »

Because that's how it worked in the house. The tenant moving out finds a new tenant to replace them, and at the viewing the prospective tenants get to meet the current housemates and vice versa. Much better than the landlord simply sticking in the first person who they find.

Oh, and I mentioned to the landlord that all my 'extras' would be in the house during the viewing, and they said that was completely fine as I would be living there for another three weeks.

Fair enough, thats not an arrangement I ever liked as it always seemed to take it out of the landlords hands where someone could get shafted
ie landlord says he never got deposit of previous tenant and now wont give one over and also does the landlords job for them, seen that get messy and leaves the onus on the tenant to get a new tenant or not get their deposit back.
Anyway, I reckon a place should be left as clean as you get it, doing it on the last day (like cleaning the bath/toilet etc assuming its not just moving mess) is like saying the place is never clean and doesnt give a landlord a fair opportunity to show the place

omega666

Merch wrote: »

Anyway, I reckon a place should be left as clean as you get it, doing it on the last day (like cleaning the bath/toilet etc assuming its not just moving mess) is like saying the place is never clean and doesnt give a landlord a fair opportunity to show the place

well thats not the tenants problem, thats the landlords problem.
the only onus on the tenants is to leave the place in the same state they found it when they move out.
how clean they keep it while they still live there is thier own business.

Merch

omega666 wrote: »

well thats not the tenants problem, thats the landlords problem.
the only onus on the tenants is to leave the place in the same state they found it when they move out.
how clean they keep it while they still live there is thier own business.

Actually it isn't, it is usually in any lease I have seen, that a property needs to be kept clean.

a. To take good care of the property and the furniture and equipment and to keep them, clean, tidy and not to do or allow anyone else to do damage to them and to replace such of the furniture and equipment as may be destroyed, broken or damaged beyond repair with other articles of equal value to the Landlord's satisfaction.

A property that is allowed to go into a state of disrepair due to neglect is outside normal wear and tear.
You cant keep it any condition that might attract vermin or create damage through lack of proper cleaning.
The PRTB has adjudicated against tenants and landlords have been given portions of deposits for cleaning.

convert

Merch wrote: »

Actually it isn't, it is usually in any lease I have seen, that a property needs to be kept clean.

a. To take good care of the property and the furniture and equipment and to keep them, clean, tidy [sic] and not to do or allow anyone else to do damage to them and to replace such of the furniture and equipment as may be destroyed, broken or damaged beyond repair with other articles of equal value to the Landlord's satisfaction.

I've actually never seen a lease with those terms included. Just dug out an old one of mine to double check.

It's also necessary to distinguish between 'clean and tidy' for day to day living and the 'clean and tidy' condition of the premises when you moved in.

omega666

Merch wrote: »

Actually it isn't, it is usually in any lease I have seen, that a property needs to be kept clean.

a. To take good care of the property and the furniture and equipment and to keep them, clean, tidy and not to do or allow anyone else to do damage to them and to replace such of the furniture and equipment as may be destroyed, broken or damaged beyond repair with other articles of equal value to the Landlord's satisfaction.

A property that is allowed to go into a state of disrepair due to neglect is outside normal wear and tear.
You cant keep it any condition that might attract vermin or create damage through lack of proper cleaning.
The PRTB has adjudicated against tenants and landlords have been given portions of deposits for cleaning.

From my own experience and looking at the my current lease it does not mention anything about keeping the place tidy in it.
it only mention keeping the furniture and fittings in good order.
And im not talking about extremes like leaving the place go into a state of disrepair/rats etc..
Im talking about having it at a normal state that a house with people living
in it would be at.

Im sure landlords have been given portions of the deposit for cleaning,
But how many of them were cases where the tenants where still living in the rental accomadtion as opposed to cases where the landlord has chased payment for cleaning after the tenants have left. The Op has already stated they intend to clean the place before they leave.