Use of "an" and "na" in the Genitive Case

earwax_man

I'm almost becoming fluent in the Irish language, but this is the one thing that has always caught me out.

If I know the gender and declension of a noun, which word do I use in singular and plural for genitive case? In nominitive case it's straight forward, but my grammar books say nothing about this for genitive case.

An bhean -> Na mná . . . That's straight forward
Na mná -> Na mban . . . Okay...

But why is it like this?

Also, on a separate note, why do teachers teach through Irish in school? It makes more sense to learn through English as I learned German.

But that's a separate matter.

Enkidu

The full rules for the genitive are:

Masculine:
Words starting with Consonants (not s):
an + lenition + genitive form
mac an bhúistéara

Starting with s:
an + t + genitive form
mac an tsiúinéara

Starting with a Vowel:
an + genitive form
mac an iascaire

Feminine:
Starting with a consonant:
na + genitive form
dúnadh na fuinneoige

Starting with a vowel:
na + h + genitive form
blas na huibhe

Plural:
Starting with a consonant:
na + eclipses + genitive form
teach na gcearc

Starting with a vowel:
na + n- + genitive form
ceol na n-éan

I think an easy way to remember it is that it's sort of like the nominative except switched around. In this case masculine lenites and adds a t to s and feminine does nothing. Similarly, masculine does nothing to vowels and feminine adds something in front. This is the exact reverse of the nominative.

Then all you have to remember is that in the plural you have eclipses and you're done. (Adding n- to vowels is done by anything that causes eclipses to consonants, so you don't have to remember this seperately.)

pog it

Enkidu has lined out a lot for you there.

The Christian Brothers book (the blue one with the crosses on the front) is a handy reference for the declensions and formation of the genitive.

earwax_man

pog it wrote: »

Enkidu has lined out a lot for you there.

The Christian Brothers book (the blue one with the crosses on the front) is a handy reference for the declensions and formation of the genitive.

I bought that book agves ago. It's quite good actually.

pog it

earwax_man wrote: »

I bought that book agves ago. It's quite good actually.

Yeah it has all ya need really

pog it

earwax_man wrote: »

I'm almost becoming fluent in the Irish language, but this is the one thing that has always caught me out.

If I know the gender and declension of a noun, which word do I use in singular and plural for genitive case? In nominitive case it's straight forward, but my grammar books say nothing about this for genitive case.

An bhean -> Na mná . . . That's straight forward
Na mná -> Na mban . . . Okay...

But why is it like this?

Also, on a separate note, why do teachers teach through Irish in school? It makes more sense to learn through English as I learned German.

But that's a separate matter.

I suppose that part made me think you didn't have a grammar book that covered it.

My apologies

earwax_man

pog it wrote: »

I suppose that part made me think you didn't have a grammar book that covered it.

My apologies

Fadhb ar bith

Agus míle míle buíochas do Enkidu chun na rialacha dom a léiriú! :P

^__^

pog it

earwax_man wrote: »

Fadhb ar bith

Agus míle míle buíochas do Enkidu chun na rialacha dom a léiriú! :P

^__^

Don't you mean:

....na rialacha a léiriú dom?

Also, you can't use 'Chun' here in this context. Not in any dialect.

earwax_man

pog it wrote: »

Don't you mean:

....na rialacha a léiriú dom?

Also, you can't use 'Chun' here in this context. Not in any dialect.

I thought chun + noun + a + verb is the same as the german "Um + zu construction".

My bad. :eek:

When can chun be used so?

pog it

earwax_man wrote: »

I thought chun + noun + a + verb is the same as the german "Um + zu construction".

My bad. :eek:

When can chun be used so?

In your sentence you said "Agus míle míle buíochas do Enkidu chun na rialacha dom a léiriú"

With the 'buíochas a thabhairt do dhuine' construction, you use the preposition 'as' as the preposition to say what you are thanking them for. So it would be "míle míle buíochas do Enkidu as na rialacha a léiriú dom''
The odd time you might hear 'do' or 'le haghaidh' instead of 'as' but 'chun' just doesn't go here in this context.

But there are plenty of times you can say chun + rud + verb such as 'tá mé chun rud a dhéanamh': I am going to/about to do something.

It just depends on the context really.

Look sorry for going on about the native speaker thing and being so sticky about it. Just occurred to me you might be young enough and I'm sorry for being mean.

Enkidu

earwax_man wrote: »

Fadhb ar bith

Agus míle míle buíochas do Enkidu chun na rialacha dom a léiriú! :P

^__^

Go ndéana a mhaith dhuit!

Also fair play to you pog it you have some real knowledge of the language.

pog it

Enkidu wrote: »

Go ndéana a mhaith dhuit!

Also fair play to you pog it you have some real knowledge of the language.

Sorry I don't really, I'm just after year and a half or so of studying, it replaced about 3 small hobbies, but I am definitely still learning and will be for a long time to come!

Enkidu

pog it wrote: »

Sorry I don't really, I'm just after year and a half or so of studying, it replaced about 3 small hobbies, but I am definitely still learning and will be for a long time to come!

Well at that rate you'll be a master of the language. Are you focusing on any dialect in particular?