XY woman gives birth to XY daughter

Links234

Something that transgender people often hear is that no matter what treatment they undergo, they're still their birth sex because of their chromosomes. pretty preposterous idea, but it's still something cisgender people use to deny transgender people their identities.

but putting the final nail in the coffin of chromosomes = physical sex, is this

One of the most tedious and often repeated pieces of anti trans rhetoric (amongst many) that I’m attacked with by some cis women feminists is that I’m not a “real” woman because I don’t have the “right” chromosomes. This pisses me off for three reasons: first, it assumes that my chromosomal karyotype is 47,XY; second, it erases the existence of intersex people and third, it posits an essentialist and cissexist worldview in which I and other TS/TG people are always and forever the sex we were assigned at birth, regardless of whether or not that particular value judgement bears any resemblance to our individual lived experiences. It denies us the agency to change, it’s unfeminist in that it denies us bodily autonomy and, frankly, I’m sick of hearing it. To paraphrase Morrissey, it says nothing to me about my life. So by way of illustration that chromosomes don’t necessarily determine sex, this report in the snappily-titled Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism makes interesting reading.

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

As the OII (International Intersex Organisation) explains, gonadal dysgenesis is an intersex variation characterised by the presence of “streak gonads” (neither discrete ovaries or testes). Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis yields female genitals and Müllerian duct formation, despite a genetic profile suggesting maleness.

One case of interest relates to two individuals named Stella and Ewa who won Olympic medals more than thirty years apart as females. It was later discovered that the women were 46,XY females with the mixed gonadal dysgenesis condition. Not much other than their phenotypically female status is known although it could be assumed the women were not able to bear children. Their condition was not hereditary nor can it be predicted [...]

So may we now have a little less of this essentialist nonsense that our chromosomal karyotypes dictate whether or not we’re “real” women, please?

http://imgur.com/hCYSg.jpg

DOC09UNAM

LBGT = http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=255

Mr. CooL ICE

So... women born with balls can have children? Im confused

Pookah

How does one or two 'freak' cases in nature make an argument for all trans-gender people having female chromosones?

What is your point exactly?

Pherekydes

Pookah wrote: »

How does one or two 'freak' cases in nature make an argument for all trans-gender people having female chromosones?

What is your point exactly?

"All swans are white."

Just one counterexample will disprove the above statement. Just one.

Pookah

Pherekydes wrote: »

"All swans are white."

Just one counterexample will disprove the above statement. Just one.

And the discovery of the black swan means the white swans are...?

Pherekydes

Pookah wrote: »

And the discovery of the black swan means the white swans are...?

The discovery of black swans proves that not ALL swans are white.

There seems to be a generally held belief amongst some people that ALL people with xy chromosomes are men, and cannot have children. This case disproves that. It doesn't say anything about ALL people with xy chromosomes. Just about some.

Cookie_Monster

it assumes that my chromosomal karyotype is 47,XY

That's my first assumption about everyone I meet

Pookah

Pherekydes wrote: »

The discovery of black swans proves that not ALL swans are white.

There seems to be a generally held belief amongst some people that ALL people with xy chromosomes are men, and cannot have children. This case disproves that. It doesn't say anything about ALL people with xy chromosomes. Just about some.

Yes. That's the way I understood it. Though 'some' is probably a little generous.

Very rarely in nature, might be a little more accurate.

I still don't see how men who've undergone sex change operations can claim to be fully female on the basis of the OP, however.

Pherekydes

Pookah wrote: »

Yes. That's the way I understood it. Though 'some' is probably a little generous.

Very rarely in nature, might be a little more accurate.

Just one...

Pookah

Pherekydes wrote: »

Just one...

So, one or two cases in nature means all men who've undergone sex-change operations can be considered fully female?

Quite the logical stretch.

CreepingDeath

Links234 wrote: »

XY woman gives birth to XY daughter

Funnily enough normal women can also give birth to men.
It's not like women give birth to girls and men give birth to boys.

Brendog

My LOL wife gave birth to a ROFL son.




I am disappoint

fishtastico

Meh, yeast can switch mating-type in one cell cycle. They're obviously superior to humans who need a scalpel. Plus they make alcohol.

Voodu Child

I heard that a woman in Iran gave birth to a frog a few years back.

Puts the final nail in the coffin for the argument that people arent actually frogs in disguise.

CreepingDeath

Voodu Child wrote: »

I heard that a woman in Iran gave birth to a frog a few years back.

That's more common in France.

Cookie_Monster

Voodu Child wrote: »

I heard that a woman in Iran gave birth to a frog a few years back.

Puts the final nail in the coffin for the argument that people arent actually frogs in disguise.

Ribbiting stuff

sbsquarepants

Pardon my ignorance, but what does cisgender mean?

Fago!

LordChessington wrote: »

So... women born with balls can have children? Im confused

That's the northside for ya!

Cookie_Monster

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what does cisgender mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

"normal" or "standard" people for want of a better term

Pherekydes

Pookah wrote: »

So, one or two cases in nature means all men who've undergone sex-change operations can be considered fully female?

No, no, no!

Recall the swans.

"All swans are white."

"I found a black one" disproves the above statement, but it doesn't say anything about ALL of the white swans.

Now, apply that to the situation:

"All transgendered women were previously men and cannot have children."

We've found a counterexample. It nullifies the statement. It does not say anything about ALL transgendered women. Just that there is a counterexample to invalidate the original statement.

Pookah

Pherekydes wrote: »

"All transgendered women were previously men and cannot have children."

If a transgendered woman is one who's had a sex change, they still can't have children.

We've found a counterexample. It nullifies the statement. It does not say anything about ALL transgendered women. Just that there is a counterexample to invalidate the original statement.

The counter example doesn't validate the statement in the article that men who've had the operation are now 'real women'.

Convince yourself if you must, but you won't be convincing me, no matter what logical hoops you try to make me jump through.

ch750536

Links234 wrote: »

Something that transgender people often hear is that no matter what treatment they undergo, they're still their birth sex because of their chromosomes. pretty preposterous idea, but it's still something cisgender people use to deny transgender people their identities.

but putting the final nail in the coffin of chromosomes = physical sex, is this



http://imgur.com/hCYSg.jpg

Pics or GTFO

sbsquarepants

Again, pardon my ignorance (im not as well up on the whole tranny situation as perhaps i should be), but is this actually an issue for anyone except the occasional "xy" would be mum? I'm finding it hard to see what the point is. This woman had a baby, it was thought she couldn't, now it's known to be different. Is that the whole story?