The Gun hit rule

whydave

what do you think ......
http://www.airsoftbattlezone.com/airsoftfieldgamerules.html
rule 14 :
''Hits to a player’s gun do not eliminate a player; However, they do eliminate that weapon. The gun is unusable until it has been returned to a reinsertion area. ''

OR

http://www.fswairsoft.com/Rules_Regulations.html
Gun Hits

1. If a BB hits your gun, it is disabled.

2. WEAPON RESPOND RULE: Once a gun is hit, the player must simulate a thirty second repair, and the gun cannot be used until repair is complete.

Puding

Only ever used the first one, adds a bit fun with somtimes having to transition fast and stops large replicas being used as a shield at times

NakedDex

I have issues with the term "reinsertion area", simply because it sounds... well... I'll leave it there.


I prefer the second. If the device is hit, it's rendered useless until the end of the game. It's how I've usually played anyway.

Servicing the rifle for 30 seconds sounds good, but it'd be difficult to enforce. It could work in MilSim, but MilSim games usually have the "rifle disabled" rule in place anyway.

whydave

NakedDex wrote: »

I have issues with the term "reinsertion area",

'REspawn point '

Better ?

evilrobotshane

I prefer the first because sitting about counting seconds is not fun (except bleed time of course, we love that). I'd allow somebody to go and respawn as normal if they wanted to in order to get their gun back, be that tapping the respawn point or spending 15 minutes in the safe zone depending on the rules of the game. I definitely prefer it when gun hits effect the gun, rather than counting as a player hit or doing nothing.

NakedDex

whydave wrote: »

'REspawn point '

Better ?

Ironically, there are "situations" where reinsertion leads to respawn...

Stercus Accidit

NakedDex wrote: »

Ironically, there are "situations" where reinsertion leads to respawn...

Should have used body armor in that case...


If you have no secondary, what to do in such a situation, I was once just told to play on as I was going to respawn.

I think its a good rule for milsim though to have the aeg disabled.

jeawan

Used the gun hit once too ran around for the next hour with a pistol and 4 rounds in a Milsim till i got him and killed , was allot of fun too i really had to place my shots with the pistol.

NakedDex

That's exactly why the disable rule is great. You suddenly have to shift your entire play style and tactics. It makes a huge difference.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Should have used body armor in that case...

Always wear protection.

Dread-Lock

I have always played by the first one. As I thought that was a fairly common rule....

TheDoc

I don't know what I prefer.

There is times I'll get a gun hit and transition to repel to the oncoming attack, and especially in milsim can find myself having to carry my rifle on my back for in excess of thirty minutes.

I'll pretty much be looking for someone to shoot me, waste a bandage just to get my primary up so I'm fully operational. That to me forces players to act outside of realism etc.

I'd definitely like to see some sort of implementation of a class/rule to re-activate gun hits in milsim games. Especially when they are generally slower pace and can have alot of downtime.

I spent an hour in sennybridge over the weekend with my pistol out due to a gunhit, and finding myself so useless was left sitting there doing nothing, it might aswell have been a person hit.

I'd like to see something like an engineer or some class in charge of munitions. Capable of re-supplying during the game but also, similarly to how a medic applies a bandage, an engineer applying maybe a sticker or something to a gun bringing it operational again.

NakedDex

I like that idea a lot...

Simple and effective for MilSim games. That'd be interesting to see in a game, and allows for basing of different scenarios around the new player class too.

evilrobotshane

I don't know of any real-world equivalent to that role, though. I'd expect that in real life if your gun gets knackered you make do, find something else or trundle back to where you can replace it, therefore I'd advocate allowing players to voluntarily respawn themselves to replace a dead gun - it takes them out of play for a while so it's a bit of a hit to their team, but maybe it's worth the trade-off, that's a decision to be made.

Introducing a designated platoon field gunsmith seems to me to have nothing to do with reality at all.

Thinking about it however, I'd expect that any fixing that can be done to a gun in the field, any soldier should be able to do themselves, and anything more requires a workbench and expertise. Therefore maybe similarly to every player being able to apply first aid to a downed player, every player should have some ability to repair their own gun - maybe once only per life. It'd have to require some physical task (like bandaging a dude's arm) and take a little time, and leave a visible indicator that the gun's taken a hit already.

Sticker seems a bit quick, as does cable tie. Tying a ribbon maybe? Ideas?

whydave

All good ideas , but was thinking not just for milsim ?

jeawan

evilrobotshane wrote: »

I don't know of any real-world equivalent to that role, though. I'd expect that in real life if your gun gets knackered you make do, find something else or trundle back to where you can replace it, therefore I'd advocate allowing players to voluntarily respawn themselves to replace a dead gun - it takes them out of play for a while so it's a bit of a hit to their team, but maybe it's worth the trade-off, that's a decision to be made.

Introducing a designated platoon field gunsmith seems to me to have nothing to do with reality at all.

Thinking about it however, I'd expect that any fixing that can be done to a gun in the field, any soldier should be able to do themselves, and anything more requires a workbench and expertise. Therefore maybe similarly to every player being able to apply first aid to a downed player, every player should have some ability to repair their own gun - maybe once only per life. It'd have to require some physical task (like bandaging a dude's arm) and take a little time, and leave a visible indicator that the gun's taken a hit already.

Sticker seems a bit quick, as does cable tie. Tying a ribbon maybe? Ideas?

I agree if your gun gets hit just make due if that requires running around with a pistol or ever trying to knife kill then do so , you could even bring in a rule that if you captured another player you could take his gun thus getting you own AEG back into the game this at least would be more realistic instead of having a Gun tech fix it for you.

Again like Doc said earlier taking the gun him and having to play with a pistol is a pain but i view it as a challenge more so if you can take players out with just a pistol then fair game it just takes allot of sneaking and luck

Puding

Guys in real life it is either ok or it is not if the soldier themselves can not get it running again then there is no calling a tech over to have a look at it, you either find a replacement or if no is available you make yourself useful another way

Adding some kinda class that can fix gun hits is just adding rules for the sack of adding rules, I say keep it simple the current gun hit rules I've used break a nice balance between realism and practicality

my 2 cents

Inari

Definitely agreed with Puding above.

The idea of 'Taking' the gun off of someone you've killed is a nice idea. After you get a kill, with primary disabled, you take the deadman's gun (in reality, your primary is just re-enabled).

The idea of fixing it yourself is also nice - having to add something so that everyone knows that your gun is damaged, and another gun hit takes it out .

PS: Good to see some nice Airsoft-related discussion again:)

whydave

Inari wrote: »

PS: Good to see some nice Airsoft-related discussion again:)

Definitely time to lock this thread

J.D.R

Inari wrote: »

The idea of 'Taking' the gun off of someone you've killed is a nice idea. After you get a kill, with primary disabled, you take the deadman's gun (in reality, your primary is just re-enabled).

This would be a good idea, but it could only happen with a knife kill, or other close quarter kill. If you got somebody with a pistol from 20 feet away, you couldn't really bring your primary back into play.

Or you would need to have it so that if you shoot someone you have to go to them and wait by them for a couple of seconds to simulate taking their gun.

evilrobotshane

J.D.R wrote: »

This would be a good idea, but it could only happen with a knife kill, or other close quarter kill. If you got somebody with a pistol from 20 feet away, you couldn't really bring your primary back into play.

Or you would need to have it so that if you shoot someone you have to go to them and wait by them for a couple of seconds to simulate taking their gun.

It'd work with games where there's a bleed-out time; you get to a downed enemy (or, heck, friend) and tag them to nab their gun. That then causes the problem of them having no main gun at all, though. Maybe a direct swap would do it, as you ditch your busted gun beside them (in our imaginations).

J.D.R

evilrobotshane wrote: »

It'd work with games where there's a bleed-out time; you get to a downed enemy (or, heck, friend) and tag them to nab their gun. That then causes the problem of them having no main gun at all, though. Maybe a direct swap would do it, as you ditch your busted gun beside them (in our imaginations).

This would be intelligent as that's what would happen in real life. The soldier wouldn't carry around the new working rifle, and the old broken one

jeawan

evilrobotshane wrote: »

It'd work with games where there's a bleed-out time; you get to a downed enemy (or, heck, friend) and tag them to nab their gun. That then causes the problem of them having no main gun at all, though. Maybe a direct swap would do it, as you ditch your busted gun beside them (in our imaginations).

We did something similar on your first Milsim event were we had injured team members we executed them instead of waiting for the medic at the time as it was quicker :P

OzCam

Let's keep it simple: the hit gun is out of action until you respawn. Use a pistol, do something else in the meantime or RTB.

Anything more complicated will only cause arguments.

Hivemind187

OzCam wrote: »

Let's keep it simple: the hit gun is out of action until you respawn. Use a pistol, do something else in the meantime or RTB.

Anything more complicated will only cause arguments.

And from experience it will cater to the cheating swine contingent.

T.w.a.T.

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd like to see something like an engineer or some class in charge of munitions. Capable of re-supplying during the game but also, similarly to how a medic applies a bandage, an engineer applying maybe a sticker or something to a gun bringing it operational again.

Thats how we played here in Bulgaria. We have one person from the team, who is engineer.
If any gun is hit, can be repaired only from him, for around 3-4 minutes, independ of the game. Only he can disable bombs or mines or put some of them.
Thats how it is.

Harveey

I know when i'm playing if i get a gun hit i take a hit because i do not carry a sidearm, i have no problem going back and respawning, the talk of gun tech's is good but i feel can only be applied in certain game mode's, like in a milsim game, whereas when out skirmishing taking the hit or switching to a secondary would be better, i know there's times i've been shot at and my rifle got clipped and i'd take a hit or vice versa and it's good to see people being honest about it aswell.

thermo

OzCam wrote: »

Let's keep it simple: the hit gun is out of action until you respawn. Use a pistol, do something else in the meantime or RTB.

Anything more complicated will only cause arguments.

+1 gotta love the K.I.S.S. principal.

andy_g

For me i play the gun hit rule. Great example was the few bridges too far at hrta 2. my rifle was hit at bridge 3 so i swapped to my pistol. then when reinforcing bridge 6 i got a pistol hit. Thermo ends up throwing me another so to keep fighting. was a very funny day though and an unlucky one

Gatling

gun techs mid game,taking guns off downed comrades or enemys (no body taking my aegs game or no game)
why fix and over complicate some thing that isnt broken or need changing

Hits a hit

Inari

Gatling wrote: »

gun techs mid game,taking guns off downed comrades or enemys (no body taking my aegs game or no game)
why fix and over complicate some thing that isnt broken or need changing

Hits a hit

Just to clarify, the idea was that when you took down an enemy, that you could "Take" their gun i.e. your primary is reactivated. You're probably right, and that it just over complicates things...but still, I just wanted to make sure the point was clear

evilrobotshane

Gatling wrote: »

why fix and over complicate some thing that isnt broken or need changing

Same reason as using medics and bandages instead of just toddling straight back to respawn as soon as you're hit. Not to everyone's tastes nor for every type of game, certainly, but it introduces interesting tactical complications and challenges that aren't otherwise available.

TheDoc

OzCam wrote: »

Let's keep it simple: the hit gun is out of action until you respawn. Use a pistol, do something else in the meantime or RTB.

Anything more complicated will only cause arguments.

I'd cause more of an arguement in that I dont understand why I should be running wtih a pistol for a serious amount of time.

If anything it encourages me to get shot, so i can get my gun back.

In reality, I'd scavange for another rifle.

I like the sound of someone in charge of munitons, allowing resupply to troops. At the moment how reloading is done in milsim here is shocking, you basically leave the gamezone.

evilrobotshane

True enough, in reality soldiers carry loose ammo they can use to reload their mags when they get a bit of a breather - much the same as airsofters do - but this is often expressly forbidden in milsim games for some reason.

Stercus Accidit

Re: Loose ammo - Probably for gameplay reasons, soldiers can do a lot of things but the rules are for the game and its enjoyment first and foremost so it might not make sense in the game to have so much extra ammo on you.

It could be a consideration in future games but it is best to base the rules on what will work or make sense in a game. A rear guard ammo crate with a few hundred rounds to be dealt out accordingly could also work, but limiting ammo is usually just that, a limit for gameplay reasons.

I hear what you are saying thats my take on it, keeping it relatively simple in an otherwise complicated set of rules, it sets the limit, but in many scenarios, a reload option would be great.

One of my first milsims was the scud hunt, after getting the first scud, most of us were down to 1-2 mags, to attack the second embedded position, with no medic or reloads. The desperation and rationing of mags was great fun, we'd have loved extra ammo, but not having it was fun in itself.


Re: Gun Hit - At a game recently my gun was hit, I had two options as I saw it, take a hit and be dead, and have to respawn or call my aeg dead, and use the pistol.

There was no reason not to try to use my pistol so I did, and brapped one chap before suffering a jam and was brapped myself. I was killed quickly and could rejoin the game fully kitted.

I agree about the need for some gameplay element whereby you can restore your primary, not a 'tech' as that makes no sense to me, maybe an army lad can tell us but armorers don't work in the field I would guess. A return to respawn to obtain a new rifle makes sense or some forward base or ammo dump, although it should have less negatives than being killed, that would be written into the rules somehow.

If you kill an enemy, getting to his position where he was shot could be the equivilant of nicking his gun, and allow you to use yours again. This encourages the use of the pistol, as one kill and advance could be your aeg working again.

Puding

Yes in real life patrols can carry some boxed ammo in packs as reserve but even then when there on foot it is not much, differances with airsoft is that you can carry several thousand rounds in a pouch/pocket without a problem

It's all about balance, I could write a rulesets that could factor in 101 real life factors but you never going to right rules to cover fear and how the fear of death effect peoples actions under fire

as I said it's about breaking that balance, but I've very much against rules for rules sack

evilrobotshane

Yep, I'm not suggesting packing sacks of BBs into the field, but for example allowing 30 rounds per magazine and another 300, say, loose but must be stored in a backpack (to make it more awkward to get at, and because that's where they'd really be). Personally I don't feel there's much to be gained from the addition of this rule because I generally play cautiously enough with my ammo that one set of mags sees me through, but some people burn through theirs faster.

Based on some suggestions on this thread I put together this rule for gun hits (for milsim, obviously). It hasn't been tried out yet, but it's no more complicated than the usual medic stuff, doesn't require taking any physical item from anyone, and doesn't get into the realm of the utterly fanciful like having gun-repair magicians running about the field. Feedback'd be appreciated.

flashinbluelite

whydave wrote: »

The gun is unusable until it has been returned to a reinsertion area. ''

i know where im going when you hit my "gun" huh? huh!

gun hit = hit = gun puts up its hand and walks to respawn...
failing the lack of actual legs? sling said gun switch to seconary and pwn the bloke or blokette that dinked your primary...

point about "loose ammo" "extra ammo in field" etc etc.....
say you get 300 rounds and you cant carry anymore IMO i think its great.forces said airsofter to be sneaky as f**k and actually make the shot....
how about if said objective is completted in X time a "airdrop" of ammo and figrolls would be "flown" in......(yummy yummy figrolls) how do they get the bb's in mid caps......i mean figs....what f**k it im going to bed..... dooshbags

TheDoc

The point I'm trying to get across is that although it may not be heavily accurate, its fun and and adds a fun element.

Could you imagine being the guy in charge of all that ammo, keeping your men alive?
I'd say youd get more volunteers for that then a medic.

And also it drops an element of protecting somethng valuable, setting up points and securing buildings to use as resupply points.

Just sounds more fun then me seeing I've no ammo, and just walking away mid firefight, or getting shot on purpose so I can grab a sambo and a reload, **** that like.

I'm as guilty as anyone for it, but when its there, its used. I'm not going to run asround with no ammo or with a pistol, its just not fun.

Inari

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm as guilty as anyone for it, but when its there, its used. I'm not going to run asround with no ammo or with a pistol, its just not fun.

If you have ammo in your pistol, and really want to use your primary...you could attempt to unload your pistol's mags, and reload your primary's mag/s. Obviously more realistic wtih Five-SeveN/P90 combo, but hey...if you have ammo, use it, in my eyes.

TheDoc

But there is my point again.

In a game scenario, I really wouldn't be ****ed pulling BB's out of my pistol and putting them into a mag for a rifle. I know that its just cool for me to stroll up to the carpark have a smoke, get some ammo, then go into my respawn. So in the ten fickly minutes it might take to do your suggestion, I could be up and back from the car if I wanted too.

I'm not dissing your suggestion its valid, I'm just pointing out what REALLY happens on the field. : /

Everyone does it, its what happens.

If you supply no rules or regs or ingame stuff about re-supplying and reloading, then you simply get people walking back to the car.

As much as it might be realistic, the simple fact is the game goes to ****e and is boring, very very quickly.

Inari

You don't have to worry about dissing my opinion, we're all big-boys here

My perspective would be that in a limited ammo game, I'd be more immersed, so getting shot/hit, kills that immersion (because I'm dead). Whereas counting rounds, and having to switch to side-arm would just add to it for me. But then again, I've always preferred pistols.

The problem I see with your idea is that it has extraordinary potential to remove a lot of the good points of limited ammo games. However, I'm sure there are better alternatives, compromises etc. Such as attacking an Armory, seizing control so that you can reload. Since it happens in game, you're still conserving ammo. You can be attacked at any time, so you'd want to reload fast, and get away - or attempt to hold the fort.

I'm an advocate of scenario-type games, so stuff like the above is what interests me.

Manic Moran

Yep, I'm not suggesting packing sacks of BBs into the field, but for example allowing 30 rounds per magazine and another 300, say, loose but must be stored in a backpack (to make it more awkward to get at, and because that's where they'd really be).

Depending on the type of ammo pouches your mags are in, it's not inconceivable to have 20 or even 40 rounds (one or two boxes) in each ammo pouch, under the mag(s).

That said, I had some 13 magazines, four of which were on the backpack, so I didn't need to carry any loose ammo at all.

NTM

r0n0c

evilrobotshane wrote: »

this rule for gun hits (for milsim, obviously).

Never seen it in action but it sounds like a good idea.. I really like the bit of swapping condtions with a bleeding out player.

Harveey

Seems to me some people just dont like moving around anymore, all this talk of "scavaging for a gun" is hopeless, take a gun hit, switch to secondary or respawn, not like it takes a long time to get to your respawn.

Witcher

Harveey wrote: »

Seems to me some people just dont like moving around anymore, all this talk of "scavaging for a gun" is hopeless, take a gun hit, switch to secondary or respawn, not like it takes a long time to get to your respawn.

:rolleyes:

They want to scavenge for a gun so they can keep moving around.

Harveey

Blay wrote: »

:rolleyes:

They want to scavenge for a gun so they can keep moving around.

you can still move around with your secondary though, i'm sure some people wouldn't want to just leave there gun lying around just so someone can pick it up and use it, from my experience playing and watching people who do that enjoy having to only use a pistol

Witcher

Harveey wrote: »

you can still move around with your secondary though, i'm sure some people wouldn't want to just leave there gun lying around just so someone can pick it up and use it, from my experience playing and watching people who do that enjoy having to only use a pistol

It's about incorporating a bit more realism, in real life you wouldn't pass by a useable rifle and say "ah it's grand, I have my sidearm".

Again as numerous people have said you would not be taking an actual gun from a downed player only reactivating your own "hit" gun.

Harveey

Blay wrote: »

It's about incorporating a bit more realism, in real life you wouldn't pass by a useable rifle and say "ah it's grand, I have my sidearm".

Again as numerous people have said you would not be taking an actual gun from a downed player only reactivating your own "hit" gun.

it's still over complicating things, it should be left at swapping to a secondary or respawning, unless it's an event in the like's of a milsim event.

Witcher

Harveey wrote: »

it's still over complicating things, it should be left at swapping to a secondary or respawning, unless it's an event in the like's of a milsim event.

That's what everyone's talking about...it couldn't be done in a normal skirmish because you can't "down" a player, they're just killed outright.