Shock Doctrine

newman10

I have just finished reading "the Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein and I am left wondering are there parallels between what is going on in Ireland and what was practised by the Chicago Boys.

Drive down the economy to such a point that growth will come through the Free Market even though the human cost is high.

And we are taking all this sh*t lying down

ei.sdraob

newman10 wrote: »

And we are taking all this sh*t lying down

Yes

newman10 wrote: »

I have just finished reading "the Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein

No!

The_Honeybadger

newman10 wrote: »

Drive down the economy to such a point that growth will come through the Free Market even though the human cost is high.

Do you seriously believe FF could come up with this? You must be joking, our problems are down to woeful policy mismanagement, corruption, cronyism, incompetence, pandering to our unions, and the Irish peoples insatiable appetite for owning property and making a fast buck (please feel free to add anything I have left out ). FF have always been about being in power, there is no way they would have drawn the current crisis on themselves.

Justin Collery

I read the same book, and pardon the pun, much of it is shocking.

Reading the book I was also left wondering what the parallels were with Ireland. Given the European context, many of the measures used in South America would seem to be not possible here (e.g. mass poverty, imposition of rule through torture and brutality, the mutual exclusion of true free market economics as espoused by Freedman and any semblance of democracy). It's unlikely we will see a Pinochet type regime here. However...

given the way bonds and CDS spreads are heading over the last 24 hours I am sure there will be much talk of IMF intervention over the coming weeks. This book gives the IMF a very bad report. Those who wish for the IMF to come in here would be well advised to read this book. It is a cautionary tale that we would do well to sort our own mess out. If we (we the people, we the country and we the government) do not have our own best interests at heart it would be foolish, naive to expect others [the IMF] to have them at heart.

The_Honeybadger

jcollery wrote: »

given the way bonds and CDS spreads are heading over the last 24 hours I am sure there will be much talk of IMF intervention over the coming weeks. This book gives the IMF a very bad report. Those who wish for the IMF to come in here would be well advised to read this book. It is a cautionary tale that we would do well to sort our own mess out. If we (we the people, we the country and we the government) do not have our own best interests at heart it would be foolish, naive to expect others [the IMF] to have them at heart.

+ 1 but I firmly believe we are incapable of sorting out our own mess. There are too many vested interests who would rather cut off their nose to spite their face, we will continue with the economy on life support until our hand is forced when nobody will bankroll us any more. Only then will we see any real reform in this wretched country.

20Cent

Read it also, think there are many parallels with Ireland.
Started a thread on it months ago but no one replied :mad:

Count Dooku

mickeyk wrote: »

but I firmly believe we are incapable of sorting out our own mess.

+1

changes

20Cent wrote: »

Read it also, think there are many parallels with Ireland.
Started a thread on it months ago but no one replied :mad:

Someone give 20cent a hug .

I'm with the incompetance/mismanagement arguement also.

There may be some dark minds in the dept of finance though that are happy to see wages drop at all costs.

Drumpot

mickeyk wrote: »

+ 1 but I firmly believe we are incapable of sorting out our own mess. .

Which is why we are lucky that the EU has their own vested reasons for sorting us out !;)

Unless the EU breaks up, we will not need the IMF . . Especially considering the help that Greece has gotten in comparison to ourselves . .

johnnyskeleton

jcollery wrote: »

This book gives the IMF a very bad report. Those who wish for the IMF to come in here would be well advised to read this book. It is a cautionary tale that we would do well to sort our own mess out. If we (we the people, we the country and we the government) do not have our own best interests at heart it would be foolish, naive to expect others [the IMF] to have them at heart.

The IMF are not the bad guys. They are like Chemotherapy. Seen in isolation it is bad because it is irradiating a human to such an extent that their hair falls out and they can't move for a few days afterwards. Chemo on its own would be considered torture.

But when you see that the Chemo is there to cut out the tumours in the body, and have asometime turned a terminal patient into a fully healthy person again, you see that Chemo is only a TEMPORARY measure but the benefits of it can last a lifetime.

Saying that we can sort our own mess out rather than get the IMF in is a bit of a nonsense. It is almost like saying that we can perform our own surgery on ourselves rather than subject ourselves to Chemo. Worse, given the way the current government has handled things, it would be like going to a faith healer and simply wishing yourself better.

I haven't read the book but I imagine its message on the IMF is like this:

1) tin pot dictatorship runs a country to the brink to build some white elephant vanity projects fulled by international loans;
2) realising that they have no money, a massive deficit and no one to borrow from, they turn to the IMF, the lender of last last last resort;
3) the IMF says we will lend but only if you try to pay it back, and to do so you will have to cut out all this debt fulled spending;
4) the economy gets worse than it was during the dictator but still marginally better than it was before the spending spree;
Conclusion: the IMF are the bad guys who destroyed the growth that the good benevolent dictator was bringing to the State.

No one ever has to borrow from the IMF, they can always default.

J_Wholesale

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I haven't read the book but I imagine its message on the IMF is like this:

1) tin pot dictatorship runs a country to the brink to build some white elephant vanity projects fulled by international loans;
2) realising that they have no money, a massive deficit and no one to borrow from, they turn to the IMF, the lender of last last last resort;
3) the IMF says we will lend but only if you try to pay it back, and to do so you will have to cut out all this debt fulled spending;
4) the economy gets worse than it was during the dictator but still marginally better than it was before the spending spree;
Conclusion: the IMF are the bad guys who destroyed the growth that the good benevolent dictator was bringing to the State.

Wrong in every respect. Read the actual book.

gercar

........am 1/3 way through the book and it is frightening to read exact sentences that parallel what has happened up to now and the recent announcements about possible privatisiations in the ould sod........am seriously considering sending a copy to Enda Kenny!

RichardAnd

newman10 wrote: »

And we are taking all this sh*t lying down

Personally, I don't believe that the Irish are meek, it simply appears that we are. As to the reason why, well look at the threads this board spawns and you might find your answers. Threads of such subjects as.

1. Angry people on variable mortgaged having a go at tracker holders.
2. People making absurd remarks about slashing the dole for those unfortunate enough to be unemployed.
3. There was one a while ago from a peevish young man who was so because of "the farmers" having things easy, so he claimed.
4. Posters blaming the banking ills on ordinary workers within the banks
5. And of course, everyone favourite, public sector flaming.

You see when you look at all the infighting that goes on, it's not hard to see why the Irish people have accepted all of this so easily. Quite simply, we're too busy whining about the neighbour with a new car.

I've said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact, this is a nation absolutely addicted to begrudgery and the powers that be know this. Hence, our excuse for a media publishes facile reports that tell just enough of the truth about things like bank time to set off Joe and Jane public whilst, at the same time, another few billion can be quietly slipped into the Anglo coffers.

population

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I haven't read the book but I imagine its message on the IMF is like this:

1) tin pot dictatorship runs a country to the brink to build some white elephant vanity projects fulled by international loans;
2) realising that they have no money, a massive deficit and no one to borrow from, they turn to the IMF, the lender of last last last resort;
3) the IMF says we will lend but only if you try to pay it back, and to do so you will have to cut out all this debt fulled spending;
4) the economy gets worse than it was during the dictator but still marginally better than it was before the spending spree;
Conclusion: the IMF are the bad guys who destroyed the growth that the good benevolent dictator was bringing to the State.

No one ever has to borrow from the IMF, they can always default.

You clearly have not read the book

population

RichardAnd wrote: »

Personally, I don't believe that the Irish are meek, it simply appears that we are. As to the reason why, well look at the threads this board spawns and you might find your answers. Threads of such subjects as.

1. Angry people on variable mortgaged having a go at tracker holders.
2. People making absurd remarks about slashing the dole for those unfortunate enough to be unemployed.
3. There was one a while ago from a peevish young man who was so because of "the farmers" having things easy, so he claimed.
4. Posters blaming the banking ills on ordinary workers within the banks
5. And of course, everyone favourite, public sector flaming.

You see when you look at all the infighting that goes on, it's not hard to see why the Irish people have accepted all of this so easily. Quite simply, we're too busy whining about the neighbour with a new car.

I've said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact, this is a nation absolutely addicted to begrudgery and the powers that be know this. Hence, our excuse for a media publishes facile reports that tell just enough of the truth about things like bank time to set off Joe and Jane public whilst, at the same time, another few billion can be quietly slipped into the Anglo coffers.

I personally know NAMA based builders who trot out this line every 5 minutes. "It was not I, it was those wretched begrudgers!" I think it should be banned from discourse as it seems to be a get out clause for the wreckless.

On your second point about bank time and Anglo etc. I agree to an extent, particularly with regard to certain sections of the media having an inbuilt agenda, however this does not mean that the more archaic practices in the public service do not need to be abolished.

Prakari

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The IMF are not the bad guys. They are like Chemotherapy. Seen in isolation it is bad because it is irradiating a human to such an extent that their hair falls out and they can't move for a few days afterwards. Chemo on its own would be considered torture.

But when you see that the Chemo is there to cut out the tumours in the body, and have asometime turned a terminal patient into a fully healthy person again, you see that Chemo is only a TEMPORARY measure but the benefits of it can last a lifetime.

Saying that we can sort our own mess out rather than get the IMF in is a bit of a nonsense. It is almost like saying that we can perform our own surgery on ourselves rather than subject ourselves to Chemo.

I apologize for continuing the medical metaphor but the cancer is a debt-based monetary system and it symptoms have become more severe in recent decades. Unless you get rid of this cancer, more regular and severe economic crashes are inevitable. All that the IMF does to a country is bring about increased privatization. Does anyone seriously believe that paying off existing debt with new debt will actually work.

Scofflaw

Prakari wrote: »

I apologize for continuing the medical metaphor but the cancer is a debt-based monetary system and it symptoms have become more severe in recent decades. Unless you get rid of this cancer, more regular and severe economic crashes are inevitable. All that the IMF does to a country is bring about increased privatization. Does anyone seriously believe that paying off existing debt with new debt will actually work.

It has been doing so for quite a while.

cordially,
Scofflaw