Sinn Féin Pre Budget Submission 2010

PomBear

link

definately worth a look

few main points

• Introduce third tax rate of 48% on individual
  earnings in excess of €100,000 – Raises €355
  million
  
• Standardise all discretionary tax reliefs –
  Raises €1.1 billion
  
• Reduce earnings cap for pension contribution
  tax relief to €100,000 – Raises €85 million
  
• Abolish all remaining property-based tax
  reliefs (on property development, not principal
  home mortgage interest relief) - Raises €43
  million
  
• Abolish mortgage interest relief for landlords –
  Raises €285 million
  
• Increase tax on second homes to €600, to
  include holiday homes and rental properties
  only – Raises approx €120 million
  
• Abolish the PRSI ceiling – Raises €119.5
  million
  
• Introduce a 1% wealth tax on all assets worth
  more than €1 million, excluding farmland
  (regardless of residency rules) – (estimated,
  detail in full Budget proposal) Raises €1.6
  billion
  
• Increase DIRT by 5% - Raises €145 million
  
• Increase Betting Duty to 10% - Raises €310
  million
  
• Increase Capital Gains tax to 40% - Raises
  €190 million
  
• Phase out all subsidies of private practice in
  public hospitals and charge practioners for
  the use of public equipment and staff in their
  private practice – Saves €100 million
  
• Implement a new contract for all hospital
  consultants which would cap their starting
  pay at !€100,000 with a maximum of €150,000
  remuneration – Saves €210 million
  
• Cap TDs’ salaries at €75,000 and Senators’
  salaries at €60,000, with a maximum cap of
  €100,000 and €80,000 respectively – Saves
  €4.8 million
  
• Cap ministers’ pay at €100,000 and junior
  ministers’ at €85,000 – Saves €2.43 million
  
• Remove the allowances payable to the
  Chairpersons, vice - Chairpersons and Whips
  of all Oireachtas Committees and Sub-
  Committees and introduce properly vouched
  expenses – Potential savings €1 million
  
• Cap the maximum salary available to
  public servants and semi-state bodies at
  approximately four times the basic entry rate,
  or three times the average industrial wage (cap
  at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

If workable, it is a few tweeks that would definately be the less invasive on the average family

liammur

PomBear wrote: »

link

definately worth a look

few main points

• Introduce third tax rate of 48% on individual
  earnings in excess of €100,000 – Raises €355
  million
  
• Standardise all discretionary tax reliefs –
  Raises €1.1 billion
  
• Reduce earnings cap for pension contribution
  tax relief to €100,000 – Raises €85 million
  
• Abolish all remaining property-based tax
  reliefs (on property development, not principal
  home mortgage interest relief) - Raises €43
  million
  
• Abolish mortgage interest relief for landlords –
  Raises €285 million
  
• Increase tax on second homes to €600, to
  include holiday homes and rental properties
  only – Raises approx €120 million
  
• Abolish the PRSI ceiling – Raises €119.5
  million
  
• Introduce a 1% wealth tax on all assets worth
  more than €1 million, excluding farmland
  (regardless of residency rules) – (estimated,
  detail in full Budget proposal) Raises €1.6
  billion
  
• Increase DIRT by 5% - Raises €145 million
  
• Increase Betting Duty to 10% - Raises €310
  million
  
• Increase Capital Gains tax to 40% - Raises
  €190 million
  
• Phase out all subsidies of private practice in
  public hospitals and charge practioners for
  the use of public equipment and staff in their
  private practice – Saves €100 million
  
• Implement a new contract for all hospital
  consultants which would cap their starting
  pay at !€100,000 with a maximum of €150,000
  remuneration – Saves €210 million
  
• Cap TDs’ salaries at €75,000 and Senators’
  salaries at €60,000, with a maximum cap of
  €100,000 and €80,000 respectively – Saves
  €4.8 million
  
• Cap ministers’ pay at €100,000 and junior
  ministers’ at €85,000 – Saves €2.43 million
  
• Remove the allowances payable to the
  Chairpersons, vice - Chairpersons and Whips
  of all Oireachtas Committees and Sub-
  Committees and introduce properly vouched
  expenses – Potential savings €1 million
  
• Cap the maximum salary available to
  public servants and semi-state bodies at
  approximately four times the basic entry rate,
  or three times the average industrial wage (cap
  at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

If workable, it is a few tweeks that would definately be the less invasive on the average family

Definitely some good points, particularly capping TD's expenses and wages

The_Honeybadger

• Standardise all discretionary tax reliefs –
  Raises €1.1 billion

1,1 bn?? What exactly does this mean and why hasn't it been done long ago? Alot of the other proposals appear sensible enough.

ei.sdraob

well at least they provide estimates

Introduce a 1% wealth tax on all assets worth
more than €1 million, excluding farmland
(regardless of residency rules) – (estimated,
detail in full Budget proposal) Raises €1.6
billion

will not raise 1.6 billion, the money will either leave the country or the number of "farmers" would go up

Increase Capital Gains tax to 40% - Raises
€190 million

once again you raise it this high and this form of taxation will collapse as money is taken out in other forms

liammur wrote: »

Definitely some good points, particularly capping TD's expenses and wages

looks like that was taken from here

PomBear

mickeyk wrote: »

1,1 bn?? What exactly does this mean and why hasn't it been done long ago? Alot of the other proposals appear sensible enough.

Well my guess would be it means more stringent measures to collect taxation from the richer percentile where FF have turned the blind eye

Count Dooku

Cap TDs’ salaries at €75,000 and Senators’
salaries at €60,000, with a maximum cap of
€100,000 and €80,000 respectively – Saves
€4.8 million
Cap ministers’ pay at €100,000 and junior
ministers’ at €85,000 – Saves €2.43 million
Remove the allowances payable to the
Chairpersons, vice - Chairpersons and Whips
of all Oireachtas Committees and Sub-
Committees and introduce properly vouched
expenses – Potential savings €1 million
Cap the maximum salary available to
public servants and semi-state bodies at
approximately four times the basic entry rate,
or three times the average industrial wage (cap
at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

i would link pay of politicians and top public servants to average income in country - i.e. total taxable income(excluding welfare benefits) divided by total
labour force
Will not save much, but should be popular

invinciblePRSTV

But what about that most wretched of individuals? the poor abused high income earner? how can he manage his property portfolio, business interests & share portfolio with SFs commie suggestions?

After having decades of of public policy designed in such a way to make (and keep) high earners in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to how could we possibly change tack and introduce things like withdrawing subsidies to private healthcare cover, landlord mortgage relief higher tax rates and *splutter* raise CGT! how could the wealthys offspring enjoy the advantages that come with large inheritances with a 40% rate ?

And don't get me started on this third rate of tax, what are we Sweden :mad:? all my 'hard earned' money should go on me and not welfare scroungers!.

You're having a laugh with this proposal, this is (middle) Ireland, the well to do must be looked after first and foremost.

amacachi

ei.sdraob wrote: »

will not raise 1.6 billion, the money will either leave the country or the number of "farmers" would go up

Did you not read the "regardless of residency rules" bit? :pac:

jimmycrackcorm

A surprisingly good submission from SF.

ei.sdraob

amacachi wrote: »

Did you not read the "regardless of residency rules" bit? :pac:

Yes I did, in France they also have a wealth tax, not only did it not bring in extra income overall it cost the state lost taxes in other areas

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071501010.html

Eric Pinchet, author of a French tax guide, estimates the wealth tax earns the government about $2.6 billion a year but has cost the country more than $125 billion in capital flight since 1998.

Just what we need now, MORE money leaving the country.


As usual SF come up with a TAX,TAX,TAX approach without thinking about what they are proposing, but sure it sounds good for pinko lefties who dont usually think ahead or think about the consequence of their actions...

rcecil

The majority of us have had enough stolen by the speculators and the corporate party selected reps. I believe Sinn Fein has picked up on our frustrations perfectly.

amacachi

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes I did, in France they also have a wealth tax, not only did it not bring in extra income overall it cost the state lost taxes in other areas

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071501010.html

Just what we need now, MORE money leaving the country.


As usual SF come up with a TAX,TAX,TAX approach without thinking about what they are proposing, but sure it sounds good for pinko lefties who dont usually think ahead or think about the consequence of their actions...

Yeah but SF are saying even if they leave the country they'll still have to pay! It's foolproof!

Nijmegen

Just to cherry pick - taking the cap off PRSI is unfair, considering that it is related to social welfare payments and so forth.

Regardless if I earn €20,000 or €120,000 I will get the same amount, if my circumstances are the same, when I go onto social welfare (if I do.)

So why is it fair for me to pay PRSI to the horizon?

Manofthewest

Nijmegen wrote: »

Just to cherry pick - taking the cap off PRSI is unfair, considering that it is related to social welfare payments and so forth.

Regardless if I earn €20,000 or €120,000 I will get the same amount, if my circumstances are the same, when I go onto social welfare (if I do.)

So why is it fair for me to pay PRSI to the horizon?

I would say why should people with income below the cap pay PRSI on ALL ther Income and people earning over the cap only pay it on a proportion.. Surely that is unfair!!

The_Honeybadger

Nijmegen wrote: »

Just to cherry pick - taking the cap off PRSI is unfair, considering that it is related to social welfare payments and so forth.

Regardless if I earn €20,000 or €120,000 I will get the same amount, if my circumstances are the same, when I go onto social welfare (if I do.)

So why is it fair for me to pay PRSI to the horizon?

I think I agree with you here, those who this will affect are also less likely to need SW benefits than those on lower pay. They are paying big bucks into an insurance fund that they will never likely need, it's just another tax on the higher paid, who already bankroll the country (I'm not one of these people unfortunately), the lower paid need to start contributing something.

Nijmegen

Manofthewest wrote: »

I would say why should people with income below the cap pay PRSI on ALL ther Income and people earning over the cap only pay it on a proportion.. Surely that is unfair!!

Well, PRSI is for social benefits in particular, as opposed to the rest of your "general" tax bill.

If PRSI goes all the way up and up, should we not switch to a German system of paying you 75% of your actual salary at unemployment, lowering over time to the "state" level?

It's just that PRSI is supposedly aimed at one thing, and one thing only.

eoinbn

Cap the maximum salary available to
public servants and semi-state bodies at
approximately four times the basic entry rate,
or three times the average industrial wage (cap
at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

So bin the croke park agreement and have the ESB striking throughout xmas?

Implement a new contract for all hospital
consultants which would cap their starting
pay at !€100,000 with a maximum of €150,000
remuneration – Saves €210 million

Again- Croke Park agreement? The last agreement took years, SF expect to do it within a few weeks and save €210m in 2011?

Introduce a 1% wealth tax on all assets worth
more than €1 million, excluding farmland
(regardless of residency rules) – (estimated,
detail in full Budget proposal) Raises €1.6
billion

France's wealth tax took in €3.68bn in 2008- a country with 10 times our absolute wealth... would love to see SF's maths on that.

Billions of their 'budget' is either nonsense or would takes years to implement- at least without someone holding a big black stick over our heads.

PomBear

eoinbn wrote: »

So bin the croke park agreement and have the ESB striking throughout xmas?



Again- Croke Park agreement? The last agreement took years, SF expect to do it within a few weeks and save €210m in 2011?

I think its fair to say PS workers on over €100,000 are more likely to be being overpaid than those under it.

France's wealth tax took in €3.68bn in 2008- a country with 10 times our absolute wealth... would love to see SF's maths on that.

Billions of their 'budget' is either nonsense or would takes years to implement- at least without someone holding a big black stick over our heads.

Already explained in this thread that assets were exported in France, whereas this can't happen under SF's suggestion

ei.sdraob

amacachi wrote: »

Yeah but SF are saying even if they leave the country they'll still have to pay! It's foolproof!

facepalm moment

read the Washington times article with the example of successful companies moving to Belgium, once a business and people leave they leave.

here in EU we have this thing called free movement of people and capital, unless SF are planning to build walls to keep us in a true socialist fashion, then again SF hate the EU (despite the EU being the only thing keeping this country going now) so wouldn't be surprised, their idiocy knows no bounds

once again it plays on the strings of our resident nationaltic socialists :P

PomBear wrote: »

Already explained in this thread that assets were exported in France, whereas this can't happen under SF's suggestion

arghgghghghg!

whole companies and people moved out of France, not just assets

we do not need (and cant afford) MORE jobs and money leaving this country

Ste.phen

PomBear wrote: »

• Cap the maximum salary available to
  public servants and semi-state bodies at
  approximately four times the basic entry rate,
  or three times the average industrial wage (cap
  at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

This one is utterly ridiculous IMHO.
The problem (again, IMHO) with the public service, semi states, etc, is not that people are paid 'too much', it's that many people are paid far too much relative to how useful they are. Applying a blanket cap on pay is a horrible idea. I'm aware it's much easier to do that than to pay people based on performance, responsibilities and the value they bring, but if we're going to make massive changes to public service renumeration, it should be GOOD changes, not easy changes.

dlofnep

Well - As they have stated - There is no point in complaining from the sidelines, without at least showing a proposed alternative. I think this is a great submission.

Count Dooku

Ste.phen wrote: »

This one is utterly ridiculous IMHO.
The problem (again, IMHO) with the public service, semi states, etc, is not that people are paid 'too much', it's that many people are paid far too much relative to how useful they are.

Country cannot afford to pay for their skills in full
If they feel undervalued, they can feel free to leave public sector and move into private sector.
I sure that it will enough people within public services, who will be able to do job of their senior colleagues for less money and be rewarded later when public finances will be in order

Nijmegen

Count Dooku wrote: »

Country cannot afford to pay for their skills in full
If they feel undervalued, they can feel free to leave public sector and move into private sector.
I sure that it will enough people within public services, who will be able to do job of their senior colleagues for less money and be rewarded later when public finances will be in order

Politicial policies often have to be sold simplisticly to work in getting the message across. The issue is that in Ireland we then go and implement them bluntly.

Some public servants deserve more than 100k, some not. Many people earning under the cap should earn less again. But, for example, if you were to bring in a Mark Hurd to run - and really reform - the HSE, I wouldn't be adverse to paying good money for it.

The issue is that we overpay everyone.

Einhard

Wow, I certainly hope I'm never successful and make a bit of money in Ireland under a SF administration.

Laminations

Nijmegen wrote: »

Politicial policies often have to be sold simplisticly to work in getting the message across. The issue is that in Ireland we then go and implement them bluntly.

Some public servants deserve more than 100k, some not. Many people earning under the cap should earn less again. But, for example, if you were to bring in a Mark Hurd to run - and really reform - the HSE, I wouldn't be adverse to paying good money for it.

The issue is that we overpay everyone.

Newsflash, we dont have money, let alone good money. I dont deserve my employer being broke but my employer is, so its take a pay cut or take a hike

Nijmegen

Laminations wrote: »

Newsflash, we dont have money, let alone good money. I dont deserve my employer being broke but my employer is, so its take a pay cut or take a hike

I agree with that.

But a flat cap is not the way to do it.

What if you hire a guy like Hurd, a very successful guy at cutting red tape and costs, pay him €5m and he saves us €100m a year off the HSE bill?

kmick

At least they did not mention Corporation Tax increases like last time. Would be suicidal but I bet its still in the back of their minds.

CGT @ 40% that wont go down to welll with Joe Public.

Savings of around 5bn. Wonder what they say on Anglo.

B Minus

Colonel Sanders

Sinn Feinn wrote: »

Introduce third tax rate of 48% on individual
earnings in excess of €100,000 – Raises €355
million

On top of the levy which is between 4 & 6%? Scraping the PRSI threshold to boot would imply a marginal rate of in excess of 60%. Way to kick people out of the country.

Sinn Feinn wrote: »

Abolish all remaining property-based tax
reliefs (on property development, not principal
home mortgage interest relief) - Raises €43
million

So the person paying a marginal rate of 60%+ still gets to subsidise people's mortgages. Nice

Sinn Feinn wrote: »

Increase DIRT by 5% - Raises €145 million

I'm actually shocked this wasn't increased further or even moved to marginal income rate already

Sinn Feinn wrote: »

Increase Betting Duty to 10% - Raises €310
million

This is an idiotic idea that would cost a huge number of jobs (office closures & operators flocking offshore) and also vastly reduce gambling turnover so deduct that cost from the 310 million

No reduction in our over generous welfare? No efficiencies in the public sector? Oh that's right, the extra tax on the "rich" will keep these particular beds feathered

Back to Russia with you pre budget submission.....

flutered

This is an idiotic idea that would cost a huge number of jobs (office closures & operators flocking offshore) and also vastly reduce gambling turnover so deduct that cost from the 310 million

No reduction in our over generous welfare? No efficiencies in the public sector? Oh that's right, the extra tax on the "rich" will keep these particular beds feathered

Back to Russia with you pre budget submission.....[/QUOTE]

the betting tax is under scrutiny, the revenue are trying to get a way to collect the battle on offshore betting

our over generous social welfare is only generous to people who are not on it,
the uk is already paying a heavy price for their undergenerous social welfare, the price of policeing etc, crime is out of control as the lower end of the foodchain seek to get ready cash, many areas are no go for cops, house and car insurance is riseing, gun crime, murder etc is spireling out of control.

rightwingdub

The usual marxist guff from Sinn Fein, any wonder why they are stuck at between 7-10% in the polls.

Bottle_of_Smoke

rightwingdub wrote: »

The usual marxist guff from Sinn Fein, any wonder why they are stuck at between 7-10% in the polls.

I thought these were very nice odds on 4/5 TDs. If a bit long term

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-government?ev_oc_grp_ids=91434

Or is it a sign things are changing? I know f-all about gambling but doesn't this suggest paddypower thinks the most likely result is Sinn Fein are gonna get 9/10 TDs?

On topic tis a bit cowardly to have farmers excluded from that wealth tax.

dlofnep

rightwingdub wrote: »

The usual marxist guff from Sinn Fein, any wonder why they are stuck at between 7-10% in the polls.

Perhaps you might add a little substance to your post, instead of engaging in ad-hominem rhetoric. Which proposals exactly do you disagree with, and why?

johnnyskeleton

• Introduce a 1% wealth tax on all assets worth
  more than €1 million, excluding farmland
  (regardless of residency rules) – (estimated,
  detail in full Budget proposal) Raises €1.6
  billion

Eh? Why farmers? So if I have a business that employs 100 people and is worth roughly €1m but is going through difficult times then I have to pay and may have to close the company. But if I'm a wealthy landowner (and €1m buys a lot of farm) who is also receiving a lot of grant money from the Government then I'm immune?

PomBear wrote: »

Increase DIRT by 5% - Raises €145 million

Some of their tax increasing ideas, while not pleasant, are reasonably sensible, but why hit savers again?

How stupid are Irish politicians that they think saving is bad? Moreover, despite dubious statistics that say that saving has increased, the reality appears to be that "household" savings have decreased. This is very worrying because households should save for a rainy day/deposit etc. But any party that threatens to increase DIRT any further is only going to cause more loss of faith in the Irish banks.

PomBear wrote: »

Cap TDs’ salaries at €75,000 and Senators’

salaries at €60,000, with a maximum cap of
€100,000 and €80,000 respectively – Saves
€4.8 million

Pfff! Champagne socialists. Don't really understand the difference between cap and maximum cap.



Bottom line - people who vote for SF don't care about tax or the economy or anything like that. People who care about tax or the economy or anything like that don't vote for SF. So this is fairly irrelevant I would imagine.

johnnyskeleton

Nijmegen wrote: »

Well, PRSI is for social benefits in particular, as opposed to the rest of your "general" tax bill.

That made me smile. If you're self employed you pay almost as much PRSI (more if you earn less than the minimum wage) than a PAYE worker, and in return you get NOTHING. You can get the state pension but AFAIK everyone can get that even if they've never worked a day in their lives.

Nijmegen

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

That made me smile. If you're self employed you pay almost as much PRSI (more if you earn less than the minimum wage) than a PAYE worker, and in return you get NOTHING. You can get the state pension but AFAIK everyone can get that even if they've never worked a day in their lives.

And well I know it. PRSI is a big ole con job in that regard.

Colonel Sanders

flutered wrote: »

our over generous social welfare is only generous to people who are not on it

I worked weekends in college to pay the bills and was left with less then (in real terms) than the dole is now

I lived quite easily on that amount to be honest. There weren't many luxuries granted but I always had cash for food, transport etc

flutered

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I worked weekends in college to pay the bills and was left with less then (in real terms) than the dole is now

I lived quite easily on that amount to be honest. There weren't many luxuries granted but I always had cash for food, transport etc

which is quite true, fair play to you, my kids had to do the same, but you did not have to put kids through school, have a car, where i live, and many more live also is a necessity, you did not have to run one, possibly no tv or broadband, heating etc, etc, pay a morgage or rent a place for a family, my last one in collage was staying in a purpouse built apartment, which had all the above included for 70 lids a week, admittedly it was 5 years ago, btw did you not have a grant of some discription.

Iwasfrozen

A surprisingly nice budget from SF here. If they keep this up they may just steal my No.1 from Labour.

timespast

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A surprisingly nice budget from SF here. If they keep this up they may just steal my No.1 from Labour.

They've got mine.......I can't believe the betting tax hasn't returned to 10% already.

View

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

[/LIST]Eh? Why farmers? So if I have a business that employs 100 people and is worth roughly €1m but is going through difficult times then I have to pay and may have to close the company. But if I'm a wealthy landowner (and €1m buys a lot of farm) who is also receiving a lot of grant money from the Government then I'm immune?

Kerry North is rural, Cavan-Monaghan is rural, Louth is rural. And any farmers in Dublin South Central will be happy too.

baalthor

View wrote: »

Kerry North is rural, Cavan-Monaghan is rural, Louth is rural. And any farmers in Dublin South Central will be happy too.

Don't forget Donegal !

Nehaxak

PomBear wrote: »

[*]Cap the maximum salary available to
public servants and semi-state bodies at
approximately four times the basic entry rate,
or three times the average industrial wage (cap
at €100,000) – Saves €450 million

As an aside to this, it would be nice if something like that could also be extended to the NGO/Charity sector here too.

Seems a decent workable bunch of submissions from SF overall though.
I would have liked to have seen mention of an abolishment of FAS also, save the country millions in wasted money propping up a ridiculous, inept and incompetent bunch of fools.

kuntboy

dlofnep wrote: »

Perhaps you might add a little substance to your post, instead of engaging in ad-hominem rhetoric. Which proposals exactly do you disagree with, and why?

SF deserve ad-hominems. Anyone who votes for them, ever, should be ashamed of themselves.

irishh_bob

View wrote: »

Kerry North is rural, Cavan-Monaghan is rural, Louth is rural. And any farmers in Dublin South Central will be happy too.

]
+1 , a wealth tax on farmland would effect thier strongest constituency in the country and they dont want to incur the wrath of a bunch of angry men from iniskeen or emmyvale

dlofnep

kuntboy wrote: »

SF deserve ad-hominems. Anyone who votes for them, ever, should be ashamed of themselves.

That's not how things work I'm afraid. If you wish to debate their Budget - Then debate it. If you wish to engage in ad hominems, all it shows is that you have absolutely nothing to say.