Gap between 'Decision Date' and 'Grant Date'

radar0976

I'm currently applying for planning permission and am two weeks away from the decision date. I've been looking at other similar applications and for any successful ones I've seen there seems to be about a month between the decision date and the grant date. In my ignorance I would have thought they were one in the same thing.

Does anybody know the reason for the difference ?

archtech

Reason is to allow appeals to An Bord Pleanala, which is a period of 4 weeks from the date of notification of a decision to grant or the date of a Manager's Order.

radar0976

archtech wrote: »

Reason is to allow appeals to An Bord Pleanala, which is a period of 4 weeks from the date of notification of a decision to grant or the date of a Manager's Order.

Ah I see. Thanks very much for the info. Much appreciated.

Apologies if this sounds like a stupid question but can site clearance begin once you get the decision, or do you have to wait the extra 4 weeks until the grant date ?

muffler

You have to wait for the final part (final grant)

In any event you need to submit a commencement notice to the building control department and you cant do this as part of the notice form requires the date of the final grant.

JuniorB

... and I think the commencement notice must be submitted 2 weeks before you start so you could be talking about 6 weeks in total.

Poor Uncle Tom

Cat amongst the pigeons time.....:D

The Commencement Notice can be put in in anticipation of the Grant Date and the form date listed as Month and Year, say Sept 2010 instead of DD/MM/YY. I've done this several times and it's been ok.

Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission.

BUT, foundations can not be poured or the entrance can not be opened as these are considered construction and construction can not commence until planning permission is secured and a valid commencement notice has been submitted.

radar0976

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Cat amongst the pigeons time.....:D

The Commencement Notice can be put in in anticipation of the Grant Date and the form date listed as Month and Year, say Sept 2010 instead of DD/MM/YY. I've done this several times and it's been ok.

Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission.

BUT, foundations can not be poured or the entrance can not be opened as these are considered construction and construction can not commence until planning permission is secured and a valid commencement notice has been submitted.

Interesting, thanks for that. And thanks everyone else for your feedback. Very much appreciated.

De.Lite.Touch

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Cat amongst the pigeons time.....:D
(snip)
Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission.
(snip)

If this is a residential planning permission for a single house for the applicant...

It sounds like you are relying on the exempted development schedule that allows you to raise or lower the ground level +/- 1.0M within the curtilege of a dwelling.

If the grant of permission isn't in existence, you cannot excavate the ground even in a residentially zoned area to any depth unless there is an existing house on the site.

That's because development is defined as works carried out on, under or over the land and permission is normally required unless these works are specifically stated to be exempt.

<<Puuurrrrrrr......>>

-- De.Lite.Touch

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

The Commencement Notice can be put in in anticipation of the Grant Date and the form date listed as Month and Year, say Sept 2010 instead of DD/MM/YY. I've done this several times and it's been ok.

The policy may well change in different areas so its better that the OP check with the BC dept first to see what is acceptable.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission.

Sorry, but cant agree with that PUT. as the planning application has effectively sterilised the site and any exemptions in relation to cut/fill become inactive.

De.Lite.Touch

muffler wrote: »

Sorry, but cant agree with that PUT. as the planning application has effectively sterilised the site and any exemptions in relation to cut/fill become inactive.

Sorry, but as far as I know, applications for permission cannot sterilise anything - they are a work in process and have no standing under the law.
Once the Grant of planning permission has issued though, this can sterilise land through condition.
This may affect the carrying out of works which might previously have been allowed as exempted development.
Applications can certainly paralyse things, though, as anyone who's ever been waiting on a decision can testify...



-- De. Lite.Touch

Mellor

thanks for that tip PUT, it obviously varies around the country, but based on previous with SDCC, I think they'd be ok.

also, nicely spotted De.Lite on the single dwelling,
I reading of it would be that, cut/fill up to +/-1m, for an extension (or a site with an existing dwelling where the PP is for a 2nd dwelling) would be ok within exempt development, as strictly speaking there is no reason to start a PP straight away, or at all.

radar0976

Mellor wrote: »

thanks for that tip PUT, it obviously varies around the country, but based on previous with SDCC, I think they'd be ok.

also, nicely spotted De.Lite on the single dwelling,
I reading of it would be that, cut/fill up to +/-1m, for an extension (or a site with an existing dwelling where the PP is for a 2nd dwelling) would be ok within exempt development, as strictly speaking there is no reason to start a PP straight away, or at all.

We are in County Cork and it will be a new one off house on a site which currently has nothing on it. So by the sounds of it we can't touch anything until the grant date.

Poor Uncle Tom

De.Lite.Touch wrote: »

It sounds like you are relying on the exempted development schedule that allows you to raise or lower the ground level +/- 1.0M within the curtilege of a dwelling.

No, actually I'm not.

De.Lite.Touch wrote: »

If the grant of permission isn't in existence, you cannot excavate the ground even in a residentially zoned area to any depth unless there is an existing house on the site.

This is not the case.

De.Lite.Touch wrote: »

That's because development is defined as works carried out on, under or over the land and permission is normally required unless these works are specifically stated to be exempt.

So basically your reading would be that permission is required for any development unless it is specifically mentioned as being exempted? If this is the case I would agree 100%.

muffler wrote: »

Sorry, but cant agree with that PUT. as the planning application has effectively sterilised the site and any exemptions in relation to cut/fill become inactive.

Generally I would agree that doing anything on the site before getting the final grant of permission could jeapourdise the planning permission, but in this case, excavations are specifically mentioned as being exempted development.

Mellor wrote: »

I reading of it would be that, cut/fill up to +/-1m, for an extension (or a site with an existing dwelling where the PP is for a 2nd dwelling) would be ok within exempt development, as strictly speaking there is no reason to start a PP straight away, or at all.

I think you're mixing up my mention of 1m dig with the raising or lowering of the site by 1m. I mentioned 1m because I don't advise digging below this unless it is necessary as it can affect the structure of nearby ground which can eventually hold foundations.

radar0976 wrote: »

We are in County Cork and it will be a new one off house on a site which currently has nothing on it. So by the sounds of it we can't touch anything until the grant date.

If you wish you can carry out the excavations within the site under Class 45 Part 1 of the Second Schedule of Planning & Development Regulations 2001, SI No. 600 of 2001. BUT, you can not open the entrance or pour any foundations.

radar0976

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

No, actually I'm not.


This is not the case.


So basically your reading would be that permission is required for any development unless it is specifically mentioned as being exempted? If this is the case I would agree 100%.

Generally I would agree that doing anything on the site before getting the final grant of permission could jeapourdise the planning permission, but in this case, excavations are specifically mentioned as being exempted development.


I think you're mixing up my mention of 1m dig with the raising or lowering of the site by 1m. I mentioned 1m because I don't advise digging below this unless it is necessary as it can affect the structure of nearby ground which can eventually hold foundations.


If you wish you can carry out the excavations within the site under Class 45 Part 1 of the Second Schedule of Planning & Development Regulations 2001, SI No. 600 of 2001. BUT, you can not open the entrance or pour any foundations.

Thanks for such a comprehensive summary and explanation Uncle Tom. Very much appreciated.

De.Lite.Touch

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

(snip)
If you wish you can carry out the excavations within the site under Class 45 Part 1 of the Second Schedule of Planning & Development Regulations 2001, SI No. 600 of 2001. BUT, you can not open the entrance or pour any foundations.

Hi Tom,

Just to be clear on this; -

---

CLASS 45 states

Any drilling or excavation for the purpose of surveying land or examining the depth and nature of the subsoil, other than drilling or excavation for the purposes of minerals prospecting.

---

You originally stated:

"Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission."

"BUT, foundations can not be poured or the entrance can not be opened as these are considered construction and construction can not commence until planning permission is secured and a valid commencement notice has been submitted. "

---

You seem to be saying that you can dig trenches on site to investigate the ground and I agree with this 100%.

I think it is also true to say that there is no limitation stated on the "conditions" column limiting the size or depth of the trenches - so its not clear where the 1M limit comes from.

But - and this is the Big Butt - if a planning officer forms the opinion that your intent is not ot investigate the ground, but is to act in advance of the Grant to dig foundation trenches, you could wind up on the wrong end of an enforcement order.

Its a big risk for little enough gain I would have thought.
But I love finding out these little loopholes and thanks for the heads up on this.

De.Lite.Touch

radar0976

De.Lite.Touch wrote: »

Hi Tom,

Just to be clear on this; -

---

CLASS 45 states

Any drilling or excavation for the purpose of surveying land or examining the depth and nature of the subsoil, other than drilling or excavation for the purposes of minerals prospecting.

---

You originally stated:

"Also, excavations up to 1m in depth can be made before the start date without compromising the planning permission."

"BUT, foundations can not be poured or the entrance can not be opened as these are considered construction and construction can not commence until planning permission is secured and a valid commencement notice has been submitted. "

---

You seem to be saying that you can dig trenches on site to investigate the ground and I agree with this 100%.

I think it is also true to say that there is no limitation stated on the "conditions" column limiting the size or depth of the trenches - so its not clear where the 1M limit comes from.

But - and this is the Big Butt - if a planning officer forms the opinion that your intent is not ot investigate the ground, but is to act in advance of the Grant to dig foundation trenches, you could wind up on the wrong end of an enforcement order.

Its a big risk for little enough gain I would have thought.
But I love finding out these little loopholes and thanks for the heads up on this.

De.Lite.Touch

Ahhh I see now it's becoming a bit clearer. So I think it's ok to do things like digging a hole for a soil percolation test.

BUT digging foundations without pouring any concrete is probably pushing things a bit.

For the sake of 4 weeks it's probably safer that we don't dig foundations until the full grant comes through.

We've already dug and re-filled percolation holes. One down as far as 14ft, on the instruction of the council!

Poor Uncle Tom

For the sake of clarity.

I have asked, and from time to time I still do, for the formation level and strips to be dug out, in part or in full, in order to survey the soils and decide whether we require a rock breaker or not. This is with the planners knowledge that I am getting the works done under Class 45.

It just so happens that when you have your answer to the survey regarding a rock breaker you also have all the excavations done....:D, an added bonus. I have never had a problem in this regard, and in a few cases we have pre-empted the need for a rock breaker.

@ De.Lite.Touch, the mention of 1m in depth in my original post here was as stated in my last post. Sorry about the confusion.

@ radar0976, you have the relevant information, and if you can wait the extra time then do so, but if you have deadlines to get funds drawn down on a mortgage, etc., you are armed with a bit of information. Always make sure your supervising Arch/AT/Engineer is aware of what you are doing, and always take direction from them.

radar0976

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

For the sake of clarity.

I have asked, and from time to time I still do, for the formation level and strips to be dug out, in part or in full, in order to survey the soils and decide whether we require a rock breaker or not. This is with the planners knowledge that I am getting the works done under Class 45.

It just so happens that when you have your answer to the survey regarding a rock breaker you also have all the excavations done....:D, an added bonus. I have never had a problem in this regard, and in a few cases we have pre-empted the need for a rock breaker.

@ De.Lite.Touch, the mention of 1m in depth in my original post here was as stated in my last post. Sorry about the confusion.

@ radar0976, you have the relevant information, and if you can wait the extra time then do so, but if you have deadlines to get funds drawn down on a mortgage, etc., you are armed with a bit of information. Always make sure your supervising Arch/AT/Engineer is aware of what you are doing, and always take direction from them.

Great, thanks again Tom. All the best.