Djinn and Islam

demonspawn

I was just wondering if the belief in djinn is commonplace in Islam or if it's just usually considered a superstition like ghosts in western cultures. I find the subject intriguing, as you may have guessed from my user name, and was just wondering what people's thoughts are.

I personally believe they could exist ever since I first heard about them when reading about Islam years ago. I think they may be supernatural beings that possess the knowledge of our true origins and can either use that knowledge for good or evil, as they have free will like us. They can take the form of a man or remain unseen in shadows if they wished.

Edit: For those unfamiliar with djinn, they are called genies in the west. Unfortunately genies are simply disregarded as a myth and a child's story.

According to the Qur’ān, there are two creations that have free will: humans and jinn. Religious sources don't mention much about them; however, the Qur’an mentions that jinn are made of smokeless flame, and their form being just similar to humans, which also can be good or evil.

The jinn are mentioned frequently in the Qur’an, and there is a surah entitled Sūrat al-Jinn in the Quran. Iblis has no power to mislead true believers in Allah. Some Islamic scholars have ruled that it is apostasy to disbelieve in one of Allah's creations. Some research by the American Jewish Committee has shown that the belief in jinn has fallen compared to the belief in angels in other Abrahamic traditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie

irishconvert

When I heard about Jinn first I found it a bit far fetched but I now accept that they exist. Just because we can't see something it doesn't mean it does not exist. Every Muslim I know believe they exist also.

SV

irishconvert wrote: »

When I heard about Jinn first I found it a bit far fetched but I now accept that they exist. Just because we can't see something it doesn't mean it does not exist. Every Muslim I know believe they exist also.

Is it because you MUST believe in it or because you genuinely do?

Kotek Besar

Muslims believe in Jinn as a creation of God, like all things in the world.

irishconvert

SV wrote: »

Is it because you MUST believe in it or because you genuinely do?

How can someone believe something exists because they are told to do so? That is not belief. I genuinely believe they exist.

SV

irishconvert wrote: »

How can someone believe something exists because they are told to do so? That is not belief. I genuinely believe they exist.

You said you had your doubts about it but now you just accept it.

It is, it's false belief.
It seems from the way you worded it that you simply accept it to be because if you didn't then it would be an apostasy.


Fair enough so.

irishconvert

SV wrote: »

You said you had your doubts about it but now you just accept it.

It is, it's false belief.
It seems from the way you worded it that you simply accept it to be because if you didn't then it would be an apostasy.


Fair enough so.

No, I think I was a lot more close minded when I heard it first. But when I considered it I came to the conclusion that it it totally believeable.

af_thefragile

SV wrote: »

Is it because you MUST believe in it or because you genuinely do?

I think you cannot disprove them either.
Science has proved there are many more dimensions than the 3 dimensions we can interact in. We only know about 10% of the universe is matter and energy we can measure the rest is dark matter and dark energy.

They're similar to demons though they're like humans both good and evil.

They're supposed to have populated the earth (and possibly other planets) before humans arrived. Though they haven't left the planet, just moved to areas where there are less humans and can in some cases interact with the human world (which goes into the whole spirit/demon worshiping thing and using them help to gain knowledge/power and such stories/practices)...

And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...
Like most ghost stories could probably be these creatures... As there are places where most people will agree "something's not quite right". The dungeons of Edinburgh are supposed to be one such place. Auschwitz is supposed to be another and there are many forests, isolated locations around the world which are well spooky.

Kotek Besar

There are good and bad Jinn. There are Muslim and non-Muslim Jinn (most are non-Muslim). Jinn can see humans but humans cannot see Jinn.

Mark Hamill

af_thefragile wrote: »

I think you cannot disprove them either.

In the real world we start with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis, in this casing meaning that if you claim something exists, you must prove it exists, its not up to everyone else to prove you wrong.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Science has proved there are many more dimensions than the 3 dimensions we can interact in. We only know about 10% of the universe is matter and energy we can measure the rest is dark matter and dark energy.

So? At one time humans thought lightning was caused by Thor, but we eventually learned how static charges in the atmosphere interact to create lightning. Arguments from ignorance (we dont undersatnd this, therefore it must be "x") fail because if we truely dont understand something enough to say what it isn't, we hardly can understand it enough to say what it is. This is why we need to base what we believe on independently verifiable evidence and logical reasoning, not insertion of what we want to believe into areas we dont fully understand.
Besides all that, I dont think the islamic argument for djinn is based on dark matter or dark energy, unless you know something I dont?

af_thefragile wrote: »

And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...

So you cant deny the resurrection of Jesus? Buddhist reincarnation?
You can disprove a supernatural event by showing that the same thing can happen without supernatural influence (assuming it has happened at all).

irishconvert

Mark, you know we take the Qur'an as the word of God. That is good enough for us, there is no need for us to prove to ourselves Jinn exist.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Mark, you know we take the Qur'an as the word of God. That is good enough for us, there is no need for us to prove to ourselves Jinn exist.

Thats kinda close to what SV was getting at above, though. You believe simply because you are told to, there is no other reason.
You must see how ... weak that looks, considering how everything tangible people have, cars, computers, medicine, all the food we grow, all the fresh water we produce, every advance we have is based on trying to understand the real world around us and how we can only claim that understanding by trying to proof (or disproof) our beliefs.

af_thefragile

Mark Hamill wrote: »

In the real world we start with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis, in this casing meaning that if you claim something exists, you must prove it exists, its not up to everyone else to prove you wrong.


So? At one time humans thought lightning was caused by Thor, but we eventually learned how static charges in the atmosphere interact to create lightning. Arguments from ignorance (we dont undersatnd this, therefore it must be "x") fail because if we truely dont understand something enough to say what it isn't, we hardly can understand it enough to say what it is. This is why we need to base what we believe on independently verifiable evidence and logical reasoning, not insertion of what we want to believe into areas we dont fully understand.
Besides all that, I dont think the islamic argument for djinn is based on dark matter or dark energy, unless you know something I dont?


So you cant deny the resurrection of Jesus? Buddhist reincarnation?
You can disprove a supernatural event by showing that the same thing can happen without supernatural influence (assuming it has happened at all).

Null Hypothesis is only one way of looking at things (A bit different to what Al-Ghazali's teachings, which is at the center of most Islamic philosophy that the way to prove a theory works is to see if you can repeat the experiment and get similar results, if you do then the theory is valid... you can go deeper into that, but I won't here).
People once believed everything was made up of earth, fire, air and water. Then people realised there was more to it as they discovered different elements. Then people realised everything was made up of atoms. Now we know even the electrons and protons are made up of many tiny elementary particles which themselves could be divided into tinier particles.

If someone if the past told you we haven't discovered anything beyond the atoms hence nothing beyond them exists would that be true? We still can't say if the elementary particles we know of right now are all there is or if there is more to it.

I mentioned Dark matter and energy because that corresponds to the significant amount of universe almost all scientists acknowledge we don't know much about and neither can we directly measure this part of the universe. As Djins are supposed to be made of smokeless fire (i.e. some form of energy/matter) they could very well be composed of what makes up this unknown part of the universe.

Saying we don't know understand this therefore it doesn't exist is a weaker argument than acknowledging that we don't understand this or know about this fully hence lets call it "x" and acknowledge there's more to it than what we know.

Most of theoretical physics is based on this. Theorising/postulating imaginary particles and then looking for proof if they exist. If they said we don't have proof for this physical phenomenon and therefore lets reject it till we find a proof it exists, then all the physics text books wouldn't even be down to half their sizes.

And finally the Quran gives contrary information on the resurrection of Christ, reincarnation of Buddhists and such phenomenon, hence if you believe in the Quran, you would believe in what the Quran says that happened/happens instead. If you wanna debate what the Quran says about these issues and whether they're to be taken over the contrary teachings of other faiths, you can go ahead and start a new thread.

demonspawn

Kotek Besar wrote: »

There are good and bad Jinn. There are Muslim and non-Muslim Jinn (most are non-Muslim). Jinn can see humans but humans cannot see Jinn.

Can they choose to show themselves if they so wished? I believe they could be the source of much of our current scientific knowledge. Prometheus is said to have been a djinn.

demonspawn

Mark Hamill, I chose to create this thread to learn more about djinn, not to hear atheistic arguments about the existence of God. If I wanted an atheist opinion, I would have posted this in the appropriate forum. This forum is for the discussion of Islam and the beliefs therein. Please refrain from hijacking this thread to push your own personal beliefs.

I am not Muslim and will never accept the Islamic faith in it's entirety. I do believe that the Islamic faith accepts much older beliefs than Islam itself and these are the beliefs I wish to discuss. There are many things that are unknown to many, but known only to a few.

Edit: I am looking for the opinions of Muslims regarding the existence of djinn. If you are not Muslim I see no reason why you would post here, unless you are also a non-Muslim interested in the possibility of their existence.

demonspawn

af_thefragile wrote: »

I think you cannot disprove them either.
Science has proved there are many more dimensions than the 3 dimensions we can interact in. We only know about 10% of the universe is matter and energy we can measure the rest is dark matter and dark energy.

They're similar to demons though they're like humans both good and evil.

They're supposed to have populated the earth (and possibly other planets) before humans arrived. Though they haven't left the planet, just moved to areas where there are less humans and can in some cases interact with the human world (which goes into the whole spirit/demon worshiping thing and using them help to gain knowledge/power and such stories/practices)...

And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...
Like most ghost stories could probably be these creatures... As there are places where most people will agree "something's not quite right". The dungeons of Edinburgh are supposed to be one such place. Auschwitz is supposed to be another and there are many forests, isolated locations around the world which are well spooky.

I think the current debate on dimensions is whether there are 10 or 11. I really have no clue what they are debating about. All I know is that there are many things we cannot detect with our current technology. This is an absolute fact and cannot be disproved by any atheist.

af_thefragile

demonspawn wrote: »

I think the current debate on dimensions is whether there are 10 or 11. I really have no clue what they are debating about. All I know is that there are many things we cannot detect with our current technology. This is an absolute fact and cannot be disproved by any atheist.

Among the creation of God, in Islamic theology, there are the Angels who are made of light, Djinns who are made of smokeless fire, humans who are made of earth and the divine spirit, animals + plants are made of earth and don't have the divine spirit.

Angels and Djinns are purely extradimensional beings. Although we have a hidden dimension as well (our spirit) which is not material and hence can't be measured.

Angels have no freedom of choice, they just follow God's orders and can't do anything else. Djinns and humans have the freedom of choice. Then there are levels humans and Djins can rise upto to be closer to God.

The Djins habited Earth before humans (Adam + Eve) arrived and probably inhabit many planets. They now live in places that are not habited by humans although they can be anywhere, because of the different dimensions we can't usually interact.

There are believes people can get possessed by these deamons/djinns and you'ld need exorcism to get them off.

A good Djinn could help you, a bad one will possess you and trouble you.
Some people can communicate with them, some people worship them, some people seek help from them (black magic, satan worship and all that).

Also in Islam satan/Lucifer/Iblis was a Djin who because of his worship and knowledge reached a degree above the Angels (so unlike christian theology, he wasn't a fallen angel) and then we all know the story of how he was forsaken.

So satan is a Djinn and so are many evil "demons" (which is why satan worshipers worship Djinns to try and please them). They try to contact these Djins by wrapping dimensions forming gateways (also these are places where paranormal activity occurs) and if you're into all that occult stuff, you can research into all of that.

I think I've told you everything I know about these creatures.

Kotek Besar

af_thefragile wrote: »

Among the creation of God, in Islamic theology, there are the Angels who are made of light, Djinns who are made of smokeless fire, humans who are made of earth and the divine spirit, animals + plants are made of earth and don't have the divine spirit.

Angels and Djinns are purely extradimensional beings. Although we have a hidden dimension as well (our spirit) which is not material and hence can't be measured.

Angels have no freedom of choice, they just follow God's orders and can't do anything else. Djinns and humans have the freedom of choice. Then there are levels humans and Djins can rise upto to be closer to God.

The Djins habited Earth before humans (Adam + Eve) arrived and probably inhabit many planets. They now live in places that are not habited by humans although they can be anywhere, because of the different dimensions we can't usually interact.

There are believes people can get possessed by these deamons/djinns and you'ld need exorcism to get them off.

A good Djinn could help you, a bad one will possess you and trouble you.
Some people can communicate with them, some people worship them, some people seek help from them (black magic, satan worship and all that).

Also in Islam satan/Lucifer/Iblis was a Djin who because of his worship and knowledge reached a degree above the Angels (so unlike christian theology, he wasn't a fallen angel) and then we all know the story of how he was forsaken.

So satan is a Djinn and so are many evil "demons" (which is why satan worshipers worship Djinns to try and please them). They try to contact these Djins by wrapping dimensions forming gateways (also these are places where paranormal activity occurs) and if you're into all that occult stuff, you can research into all of that.

I think I've told you everything I know about these creatures.

Thank you!

demonspawn

Indeed, that post was very informative and confirmed some of my beliefs. I am not an occultist per se, though I have researched quite a bit as I have done with various religions. I have read about the magic and rituals of King Solomon and his use of portals to make contact with djinn.

Is the practice of contacting djinn forbidden in Islam? I would imagine that God would wish us to remain separate but surely if djinn are also his creation then he cannot fault us for wishing to contact them. They are essentially our kin. I realize djinn that followed Satan should be avoided at all costs but good djinn can help us. Is this the case?

Also, are there a set number of djinn, and are they immortal? From what I read of King Solomon and his followers, there are a set number of djinn and they all have their true name which is used to summon them during the ritual. The alignment of each djinn and their particular field of knowledge is also known so you may choose which one you wish to contact.

Also, does anyone know what alignment Baal has? Or have you ever heard of this name?

af_thefragile

I've herd of Ball, Azazel, Baphomet and all of those folks.

I don't think humans are allowed to contact the Djins (although some humans are said to have the power to contact them). The good Djins mind their own business. The evil ones will bring you no good and they will not leave you alone. Or so it seems (people who get possessed).

I don't know about alignment and all although from what I read/heard you can only contact them at special places in special buildings which can channel energy to allow the warping of dimensions forming the portals/gateways that allow us to communicate with their world. Pyramids, octagons/hexagons, pentagrams, checkered floors and such help with all of this... Kabbalah involves some of this stuff...

I've given you most of what Islam says regarding Djins in the theological aspect. The rest is just occult knowledge which Islam doesn't deal with so I guess you could get better answers on this stuff in the paranormal forum.

Mark Hamill

af_thefragile wrote: »

Null Hypothesis is only one way of looking at things (A bit different to what Al-Ghazali's teachings, which is at the center of most Islamic philosophy that the way to prove a theory works is to see if you can repeat the experiment and get similar results, if you do then the theory is valid... you can go deeper into that, but I won't here).

The null hypothesis is quite a crucial part of the scientific method. You to start from the null hypothesis when examining evidence because to do otherwise would have you trying to disprove any claim made, regardless of wether the claims where made with any evidence in the first place. It stops silly stalemates where someone claims something is true and someone claims it is false-if you have no evidence to say that something is true, then there is no reason to think it isn't false.

af_thefragile wrote: »

I mentioned Dark matter and energy because that corresponds to the significant amount of universe almost all scientists acknowledge we don't know much about and neither can we directly measure this part of the universe. As Djins are supposed to be made of smokeless fire (i.e. some form of energy/matter) they could very well be composed of what makes up this unknown part of the universe.

But thats just empty speculation without any evidence.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Saying we don't know understand this therefore it doesn't exist is a weaker argument than acknowledging that we don't understand this or know about this fully hence lets call it "x" and acknowledge there's more to it than what we know.

But thats not my argument. If we dont understand something then pretty much all we can say for sure is that we dont understand it. If we dont understand it, then we cant even say what it is (assuming we understand nothing about it) and so we cant even say if it is.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Most of theoretical physics is based on this. Theorising/postulating imaginary particles and then looking for proof if they exist. If they said we don't have proof for this physical phenomenon and therefore lets reject it till we find a proof it exists, then all the physics text books wouldn't even be down to half their sizes.

But thats what we do say . Physics books aren't half full of physical phenomenom which we have no proof for (there are some things discussed with a degree of speculation, sure), physics books discuss physical phenomenom that we have fairly good understandings about, good enough to describe, measure and predict.

af_thefragile wrote: »

And finally the Quran gives contrary information on the resurrection of Christ, reincarnation of Buddhists and such phenomenon, hence if you believe in the Quran, you would believe in what the Quran says that happened/happens instead.

Why, then, did you say :"And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...".
Now you are saying that paranormal activities can be disproven or denied with contradictory evidence (a position I would support)?

Mark Hamill

demonspawn wrote: »

Mark Hamill, I chose to create this thread to learn more about djinn, not to hear atheistic arguments about the existence of God. If I wanted an atheist opinion, I would have posted this in the appropriate forum. This forum is for the discussion of Islam and the beliefs therein. Please refrain from hijacking this thread to push your own personal beliefs.

I have not posted word one on the existence of god or atheism. My posts were in response to the logical flaws (as I saw them) in af_thefragile's posts. My responses discussed how evidence is approached (people making claims need to offer proof for their claims first, not be disproven by others first) and the flaws in thinking that paranormal activities cant be denied (as, by being muslim, he/she denies the paranormal activities held to by other beliefs)

demonspawn wrote: »

Edit: I am looking for the opinions of Muslims regarding the existence of djinn. If you are not Muslim I see no reason why you would post here, unless you are also a non-Muslim interested in the possibility of their existence.

With the possibility of their existence, comes the possibility of their non-existence. If you are not willing to approach this subject with an open mind, then you will never know the truth.

af_thefragile

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The null hypothesis is quite a crucial part of the scientific method. You to start from the null hypothesis when examining evidence because to do otherwise would have you trying to disprove any claim made, regardless of wether the claims where made with any evidence in the first place. It stops silly stalemates where someone claims something is true and someone claims it is false-if you have no evidence to say that something is true, then there is no reason to think it isn't false.


But thats just empty speculation without any evidence.


But thats not my argument. If we dont understand something then pretty much all we can say for sure is that we dont understand it. If we dont understand it, then we cant even say what it is (assuming we understand nothing about it) and so we cant even say if it is.


But thats what we do say . Physics books aren't half full of physical phenomenom which we have no proof for (there are some things discussed with a degree of speculation, sure), physics books discuss physical phenomenom that we have fairly good understandings about, good enough to describe, measure and predict.


Why, then, did you say :"And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...".
Now you are saying that paranormal activities can be disproven or denied with contradictory evidence (a position I would support)?

Firstly about the paranormal activies, I never said it can be proven or denied.
Its just what you chose to believe. If you chose to believe in the christian argument that Jesus was resurrected, you can go ahead and believe that. If you chose to believe in the Islamic argument that he wasn't resurrected, you can believe that. There is no definite proof for either of these. Its just your belief.

About the rest, modern science and religion/theology work on different principles. You can't use the principles of one onto the other. Its like Newtonian physics and Quantum mechanics. You cannot study Quantum mechanics using Newtonian principles and vice-versa.

Theology is based on a belief system where as science is based on evidence.
In science you can get away with refuting something that is just a speculation until you gather enough evidence to build it into a hypothesis and theory and a principle.

In theology you have to consider what is mentioned in the religious texts and you can not refute them even if you can't find any evidence for it (Like when people say "God knows best"). Because theology is more about believing in something rather than building something.
In science you start with nothing and build up slowly using basic things.
In theology you start with what's given to you and try to deconstruct and understand how it can be applied.

Science and religion are like two opposites. In science you can not assume something will work, you have to first prove it works before you can put it into practice.

In religion you have to assume it works and put it into practice to see how it might have worked/effected the outcome of something.

Though in science you do have to by Murphy's Law and prepare for the worst. Like when you're building a building in a location which rarely has earthquakes or storms, you still have to build it strong enough to resist collapsing if an earthquake or a hurricane ever hits it.

Its similar to Pascal's Wager (which was in Islam long before Pascal came up with it) where you have to go with the assumption that there is a God.
If there is no God then its going to make no different to anyone's end.
But if by even the smallest of chance there actually is a God, well the one who doesn't believe in him is in big trouble then!
"if you gain you gain all, if you lose you lose nothing".

One of the core beliefs of Islam is to believe in the unseen realm which contains the Angels and Demons/Djinns. If you don't believe in this then your belief is incomplete. You can't follow a religion in bits and pieces.

Mark Hamill

af_thefragile wrote: »

Firstly about the paranormal activies, I never said it can be proven or denied.

Really? From post number 8 in this thread:
And that can also go into the paranormal activities which can neither be proven nor denied...
Maybe you meant something else, but you did write it.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its just what you chose to believe. If you chose to believe in the christian argument that Jesus was resurrected, you can go ahead and believe that. If you chose to believe in the Islamic argument that he wasn't resurrected, you can believe that. There is no definite proof for either of these. Its just your belief.

Which has nothing to do with what can be proven or denied.

af_thefragile wrote: »

About the rest, modern science and religion/theology work on different principles. You can't use the principles of one onto the other. Its like Newtonian physics and Quantum mechanics. You cannot study Quantum mechanics using Newtonian principles and vice-versa.

Its not really about science and religion though, its just common sense and best practises when confronted with claims. Its just common sense that any new claim must be the one that needs to be proved, otherwise why should we entertain it?

af_thefragile wrote: »

Theology is based on a belief system where as science is based on evidence.
In science you can get away with refuting something that is just a speculation until you gather enough evidence to build it into a hypothesis and theory and a principle.

"Get away"? Do you think that is a bad way of doing things? Why believe something with no evidence?

af_thefragile wrote: »

In theology you have to consider what is mentioned in the religious texts and you can not refute them even if you can't find any evidence for it (Like when people say "God knows best"). Because theology is more about believing in something rather than building something.
In science you start with nothing and build up slowly using basic things.
In theology you start with what's given to you and try to deconstruct and understand how it can be applied.

But there are two immediate flaws with this: firstly it assumes that the religious texts available are complete and infallible and secondly it assumes that peoples understanding of them is complete and infallible. It also begs the question of why you unquestioningly believe religious texts in the first place, it approaches circular reasoning because it seems like you only unquestioningly believe the religious texts because the religious texts tell you to unquestionly believe the religious texts.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Science and religion are like two opposites. In science you can not assume something will work, you have to first prove it works before you can put it into practice.

In religion you have to assume it works and put it into practice to see how it might have worked/effected the outcome of something.

People always seem to label this kind of thinking as science when it gets turned on what they hold to be true (I have seen it in everything, from medicine to martial arts to gambling). In reality, this line of thinking is just common sense, its how we know the things we actually know (the things we can prove) and its applicable to everything.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Though in science you do have to by Murphy's Law and prepare for the worst. Like when you're building a building in a location which rarely has earthquakes or storms, you still have to build it strong enough to resist collapsing if an earthquake or a hurricane ever hits it.

Its similar to Pascal's Wager (which was in Islam long before Pascal came up with it) where you have to go with the assumption that there is a God.
If there is no God then its going to make no different to anyone's end.
But if by even the smallest of chance there actually is a God, well the one who doesn't believe in him is in big trouble then!
"if you gain you gain all, if you lose you lose nothing".

There are many, many criticisms about Pascals wager, not least of which the assumption that you can choose to believe something.

NB: We are going way off topic here, if you want to continue this discussion maybe we should move to new thread?

af_thefragile

^You can go ahead and start a thread here if you wanna discuss the islamic view point about the belief in the Quran as the word of God and Islamic theology.

It would be an interesting discussion although I quite exactly know where its going to lead to as I've been in these discussions before and they always end up the same way. A scientific principles vs. religious belief debate which really goes nowhere.

Though I will say although there is no solid proof one can believe in for the Quran being the word of God and therefore infallible, there are many rather compelling signs which make the divinity of the text highly probable.

Actually I'll start a thread about it anyway.

irishconvert

Ok Mark, enough please. As stated in the charter this forum is not for Muslims to have to defend their beliefs. Jinn are one of the core beliefs of Muslims and your line of questioning servers no useful purpose.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok Mark, enough please. As stated in the charter this forum is not for Muslims to have to defend their beliefs. Jinn are one of the core beliefs of Muslims and your line of questioning servers no useful purpose.

af_thefragile had some clear logical flaws in his arguments, why would it not be useful to point these out? If I am wrong, then it will serve to correct me and improve my understanding of islam. If af_thefragile is wrong, then it will correct him and improve his understanding, so everyone is a winner.
If you continue to stifle any discussions on islam that involve someone expecting to be convinced by an aspect of islam, then how can you ever expect to convince someone of islams truthfulness?

Callan57

irishconvert wrote: »

When I heard about Jinn first I found it a bit far fetched but I now accept that they exist. Just because we can't see something it doesn't mean it does not exist. Every Muslim I know believe they exist also.

Reminds me of something Eddie Lehihan (Irish Folklore collector) once said when asked if he believed in Fairies ... 'No he said I don't believe in them but I still wouldn't cross them'

demonspawn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

af_thefragile had some clear logical flaws in his arguments, why would it not be useful to point these out? If I am wrong, then it will serve to correct me and improve my understanding of islam. If af_thefragile is wrong, then it will correct him and improve his understanding, so everyone is a winner.
If you continue to stifle any discussions on islam that involve someone expecting to be convinced by an aspect of islam, then how can you ever expect to convince someone of islams truthfulness?

This thread is not a discussion about Islam, it is a discussion about the possible existence of djinn. The beliefs in djinn and other supernatural beings have been around long before Islam, but have been incorporated into Islam itself. A thread has been created for a discussion on the Qur'an as the word of God, so why not take your skepticism there instead of derailing this discussion?

Personally, I'd love to see you and all other atheists banned from this section of the forum but it seems Muslims are much more willing to discuss their beliefs than atheists and much more tolerant of the criticism they receive. Go figure. Why don't you head over to the Pagan forum and question their beliefs? Why not go question the Buddhists? Or is it just the Abrahamic religions you have a problem with?

It's funny how atheists always whinge and moan about how religion is always pushed in front of them. What exactly are you doing right now? I don't care about your beliefs (or complete lack thereof), I don't want to know. So why are you here pushing them in front of us? Do you not see that as a bit hypocritical? Perhaps more than a bit.

Mark Hamill

demonspawn wrote: »

This thread is not a discussion about Islam, it is a discussion about the possible existence of djinn. The beliefs in djinn and other supernatural beings have been around long before Islam, but have been incorporated into Islam itself. A thread has been created for a discussion on the Qur'an as the word of God, so why not take your skepticism there instead of derailing this discussion?

I know that, it was an off shoot of this thread.

demonspawn wrote: »

Personally, I'd love to see you and all other atheists banned from this section of the forum but it seems Muslims are much more willing to discuss their beliefs than atheists and much more tolerant of the criticism they receive. Go figure.

You can post that with a straight face no more than 3 posts after irishconvert posted this?

demonspawn wrote: »

Why don't you head over to the Pagan forum and question their beliefs? Why not go question the Buddhists? Or is it just the Abrahamic religions you have a problem with?

I post anywhere that interests me. I've questioned peoples logical flaws on many topics-religion, martial arts, homeopathy, gm vs organic food.

demonspawn wrote: »

It's funny how atheists always whinge and moan about how religion is always pushed in front of them. What exactly are you doing right now?

You are in the islamic forum in a thread about djinn, where else should I discuss djinn?

demonspawn wrote: »

I don't care about your beliefs (or complete lack thereof), I don't want to know. So why are you here pushing them in front of us? Do you not see that as a bit hypocritical? Perhaps more than a bit.

Where have I pushed my beliefs or lack there of? I have merely been pointed out the logical flaws in one posters assertion that you cant deny or disprove paranormal activities, and questioned anothers reasoning for believing in djinn. I have not said anything about my beliefs, not said djinn do not exist, I have only discussed other peoples reasoing.

I dont know why you are being so defensive. If you started this thread to discuss djinn, then that is what we are doing. If you just wanted to know the islamic beliefs on them, then af_thefragile has already posted an iformative description, so you have your answer and this thread can be closed.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

af_thefragile had some clear logical flaws in his arguments, why would it not be useful to point these out? If I am wrong, then it will serve to correct me and improve my understanding of islam. If af_thefragile is wrong, then it will correct him and improve his understanding, so everyone is a winner.
If you continue to stifle any discussions on islam that involve someone expecting to be convinced by an aspect of islam, then how can you ever expect to convince someone of islams truthfulness?

Both the OP and I feel your questions/critisims of af_thefragile's views are adding nothing to this discussion. As the OP mentioned, he is looking for the views of Muslims, not the scepticism of athiests. If you want to continue with af_thefragile then please take it to PM.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Both the OP and I feel your questions/critisims of af_thefragile's views are adding nothing to this discussion.

If af_thefragiles views add to the thread, then my criticisms add to the thread also.

irishconvert wrote: »

As the OP mentioned, he is looking for the views of Muslims, not the scepticism of athiests.

My skepticism has nothing to do with me being an atheist, its really quite disingenuous to claim otherwise. Stop trying to label my arguments in a way that allows you to disregard them without actually rebuting them, it's not an attractive trait in someone who is supposed to be a moderator.

irishconvert wrote: »

If you want to continue with af_thefragile then please take it to PM.

Th part that went off topic is already in a new thread.