Bush to lose Heisman

Benimar

ESPN are reporting that Reggie Bush is expected to have to give up his 2005 Heisman Trophy by the end of the month. This is as a result of the same violations that USC got done for.

It's the 1st time in 75 years that the Trophy has had to be handed back.

Out of interest, Bush received the 2nd most votes ever by a Heisman winner. The player who got the most...OJ Simpson!!!

davyjose

It's Bullsh!t. Reggie Bush was the best player in college football that year. Regardless of how his team was put together. They're taking this too far, IMO.

Funnily enough, the Heisman is becoming a joke: unless you're a QB or a RB, you can't win it; most of the winners fade away, some never even get drafted. The exception being Reggie Bush -- who won a bloody Super Bowl. :rolleyes:

Benimar

The issue is though that Reggie is the one thats ineligible!

Apparently one of the requirements to win the Trophy is that the player is a 'student athlete' which Reggie wasn't if he was receiving some form of benefit.

Basically, they are saying that Bush was professional so he doesn't qualify to win the Trophy.

Peyton Manning

Benimar wrote: »

The issue is though that Reggie is the one thats ineligible!

Apparently one of the requirements to win the Trophy is that the player is a 'student athlete' which Reggie wasn't if he was receiving some form of benefit.

Basically, they are saying that Bush was professional so he doesn't qualify to win the Trophy.

To be fair, that's just all red tape and BS. Bush deserved that award, regardless of what happened off the field.

I understand that they have to set a precedent here, and that by punishing both USC and Bush, only an idiot would try to do what they did in future, but I still think it's a step too far.

davyjose

Benimar wrote: »

The issue is though that Reggie is the one thats ineligible!

Apparently one of the requirements to win the Trophy is that the player is a 'student athlete' which Reggie wasn't if he was receiving some form of benefit.

Basically, they are saying that Bush was professional so he doesn't qualify to win the Trophy.

If he was paid (and he probably was, but I'll be damn sure he wasn't the first and won't be the last), how does that prevent him being a student athlete? Paid or not, he'd have been the exact same player on the field -- maybe he'd have played harder, if the draft had been his first big payday, not USC.

It's USC's fcuk up, not Bush's. You take a young kid with talent, and offer him money to play for the best college team in the nation, then blame him for the fallout? Ridiculous!

DonkeyPokerTour

From a legal stand point can they actually do that? As in if Bush turned round tomorrow and told them to "F*** Off" can they actually do anything? And do you really think who ever finished second that year would want the Heisman trophy? I know if I finished 2nd and the winner was discovered "ineligible" or something 3/4years down the line I wouldn't want the trophy!

Just leave it and get over it, as someone said before its no longer the best player in college football who gets it, just the guy who's the most fun to watch. You don't hear many people saying "Jasys I love watching that Left Tackle, look at him he's amazing", people just want to see QB's lighting the place up or RB's running everywhere. Alot of the time those skills dont transfer into the NFL. You wont see Tim Tebow run over too many NFL line backers!

Peyton Manning

Reggie Bush: Sorry lads, I've misplaced it. Oops!

That's all he has to do :pac:

eagle eye

Archimedes wrote: »

To be fair, that's just all red tape and BS. Bush deserved that award, regardless of what happened off the field.

I understand that they have to set a precedent here, and that by punishing both USC and Bush, only an idiot would try to do what they did in future, but I still think it's a step too far.

This is separate to the NCAA investigation. Its the Heisman Trust that want the award handed back, they have nothing to do with the NCAA.

In fairness I think its the right move, after all its all because of him that USC have lost their Championship. You can say that what he did on the field had nothing to do with it but his life was made a lot handier by gifts he was given and they could have had an impact on how good he was.

davyjose

Archimedes wrote: »

Reggie Bush: Sorry lads, I've misplaced it. Oops!

That's all he has to do :pac:

Jason White sells football memorabilia for a living. Maybe he'll sell him his?

tallaghtoutlaws

Im not a man to buy into awards and really never cared about Heisman winners because lets face it most of them never come good in the NFL.

But there is nothing he can do from any standpoint. He broke the rules to receiving it and should never have been eligible. As someone said he was found to be receiving kick backs and therefore becomes classed as a pro and is no longer eligible.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

If he was paid (and he probably was, but I'll be damn sure he wasn't the first and won't be the last), how does that prevent him being a student athlete? Paid or not, he'd have been the exact same player on the field -- maybe he'd have played harder, if the draft had been his first big payday, not USC.

NCAA rules state that a student athlete are forbidden to take any payment of any sort and that includes gifts. If you get paid you then become a pro and no longer considered a student athlete. All student athlete are considered amateur athletes.

There was a story recently about a Dutch volleyball player who got a full ride into college in the US. She was investigated by the NCAA and lost her scholarship because she played on a semi pro team in Germany. And becuase she played alongside pros she was considered a pro and therefore broke NCAA eligibility.

They have some mad rules for sure but unfortunately students have to abide by them.

Benimar

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

NCAA rules state that a student athlete are forbidden to take any payment of any sort and that includes gifts. If you get paid you then become a pro and no longer considered a student athlete. All student athlete are considered amateur athletes.

Thats exactly it. The rule is there to prevent colleges from basically paying players to come play for them. In extreme cases, the player might not have been able to afford college at all if it wasn't for these 'little handouts'. They could be on scholarships but could also have to provide for family members so couldn't afford to give up a job etc.

To say he isn't the only one doesn't excuse it.

frostie500

By taking away Bush's Heisman, and making him the first player to hand the award back, are the committee saying that he is the only winner of the award to ever receive money/gifts etc during their time in college? This could set a dangerous precedent for the HTT if they go ahead with this.

On a side note it always comes up with past Heisman winners failing to make an impact in the NFL, why does it matter what someone does in the pros if they were superb in college? The award is given to college footballs most outstanding player, not to who the voters think will be a superstar in college-thats what the number 1 draft pick is for

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

It's Bullsh!t. Reggie Bush was the best player in college football that year. Regardless of how his team was put together. They're taking this too far, IMO.

Funnily enough, the Heisman is becoming a joke: unless you're a QB or a RB, you can't win it; most of the winners fade away, some never even get drafted. The exception being Reggie Bush -- who won a bloody Super Bowl. :rolleyes:

Well in all honesty, Bush has never lived up to the hype he got coming into the league either. The season before last he was non-descript and it's easy to look good on a superbowl winning team - he was in all effect the #2 running back on a passing heavy offense (he rushed for only 390 yards in 14 games, while Pierre Thomas rushed for 793 in 16) so I really think he falls closer into being a fizzle than a pop than you think.

The most prolific winner in the last ten years is obviously Carson Palmer, but before we disparge the trophy more let's remember it's for the best college player and the pro game isn't always conductive to players who thrive in the college variant of the sport. Everyone that won it did have great seaons - we can argue it's offence biased, but that doesn't mean it's not being won through hard work.

Lirange

davyjose wrote: »

It's USC's fcuk up, not Bush's. You take a young kid with talent, and offer him money to play for the best college team in the nation, then blame him for the fallout? Ridiculous!

USC did not pay Bush. He accepted a scholarship to play at USC well before any of the incidents in question and money from the university had nothing to do with it. Agents from his home town (San Diego) hedging on his professional future did pay him, mainly in the form of property and other expense write off perks. USC got nothing out of it. Accepting benefits from sports agents is a violation of a college athlete's amateur status.

USC were punished for having an inept compliance office and gross negligence. The fact that an assistant on the team eventually became aware of a relationship with Bush and an agent then chose to ignore it and hope it went away was the clincher for the NCAA's harsh punishment (although the assistant coach still denies it).

Both the programme and Reggie deserve to be punished. What those punitive measures should have been or should be is up for debate. But two people who are quite responsible for what happened but who are not really being called out in public for their actions are Bush's mother and father. They basically arranged all the deals with Reggie's erstwhile agents down in San Diego while he was playing at USC. Clearly eager and impatient to cash in on their son's talent. Great parenting there.

davyjose

While the NCAA stand there whiter than white? Come on!!!

How many "student athletes" have given their blood for their respective colleges? How much money have these kids made for their teams? Are USC going to give back every penny they made during the Bush years? The money floating about College Football is mind boggling, and the players see not one penny. But hey, if you break the rules, you have your achievements erased? Bull****! Reggie Bush was far and away the best player in College Football that season, money or no money. Taking that away is a disgrace.

And remember this isn't like Baseball, or Basketball (like Kobe Bryant or Lebron James who got drafted straight out of high school), these kids HAVE to dedicate their bodies to three years of abuse in the roughest team sport in the world, before they can earn a penny, while the NCAA sit their counting their money, acting in shocked disbelief, when a "student athletes" make a few quid!!!

Bottom line: My respect for Bush's achievement is untouched by this scandal - he still did what he did. My respect for The Heisman people, the NCAA and even USC, has plummeted!

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

On a side note it always comes up with past Heisman winners failing to make an impact in the NFL, why does it matter what someone does in the pros if they were superb in college? The award is given to college footballs most outstanding player, not to who the voters think will be a superstar in college-thats what the number 1 draft pick is for

Well the reason people associate the two because the Heisman winner is seen as the best college ball has to offer. I don't think anyone is arguing the reasons as to why the heisman committee hand it out to players. But for me personally the guy winning the Heisman trophy if considered the best of the best "Should" be successful in the NFL.

The reason above is why so many are no longer caring who wins the trophy. Don't get me wrong Reggie Bush was fantastic in college but there were so many other players who were as good as him and on the same level. For me I am not a fan of awards to begin so maybe my view is slightly tinted on the whole thing.

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

While the NCAA stand there whiter than white? Come on!!!

How many "student athletes" have given their blood for their respective colleges? How much money have these kids made for their teams? Are USC going to give back every penny they made during the Bush years? The money floating about College Football is mind boggling, and the players see not one penny. But hey, if you break the rules, you have your achievements erased? Bull****! Reggie Bush was far and away the best player in College Football that season, money or no money. Taking that away is a disgrace.

And remember this isn't like Baseball, or Basketball (like Kobe Bryant or Lebron James who got drafted straight out of high school), these kids HAVE to dedicate their bodies to three years of abuse in the roughest team sport in the world, before they can earn a penny, while the NCAA sit their counting their money, acting in shocked disbelief, when a "student athletes" make a few quid!!!

Bottom line: My respect for Bush's achievement is untouched by this scandal - he still did what he did. My respect for The Heisman people, the NCAA and even USC, has plummeted!

The GAA. There is even more of a case of amateur status at college because good players will have a chance of making at least a practice squad and make in the region of 90k a year for that alone. I think in both cases it's not perfect, but there is an attraction to a purer form of sport where the effort is not simply for money. These are the same american footballers that are getting scholarships to the best universities in the world (which in most cases they'd never have a hope in hell of getting into acdemically) for the sake of playing a sport - they're not being given nothing in return for their work, even at that level.

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

The GAA. There is even more of a case of amateur status at college because good players will have a chance of making at least a practice squad and make in the region of 90k a year for that alone. I think in both cases it's not perfect, but there is an attraction to a purer form of sport where the effort is not simply for money. These are the same american footballers that are getting scholarships to the best universities in the world (which in most cases they'd never have a hope in hell of getting into acdemically) for the sake of playing a sport - they're not being given nothing in return for their work, even at that level.

Excellent post. I have to agree people talk of these college players getting nothing for their work all of the time but as pointed out here they have been given a chance to attend a college for free that opens many doors to them including Pro Sports. I know a guy who was a DT at a D1 college and academically he struggled and would never have gotten into a D1 college based on his brain. Purely there for football. Now he is a Defensive Coordinator in a D3 college and doing alright for himself. He also has a degree in Business Management or something along them lines.

So had he not been given a full ride to the D1 college all them years back you got to wonder what he would be doing with himself nowadays. These guys are getting a full education in return for their sporting efforts. It is up to the individual what the do with it. Some will stick it out 4 years and try for the pros, Some will leave early for the Pros and some will just play football enjoy it and then get a good education and better themselves.

davyjose

That's not the point I was making though -- you can look at it that college football is mutually beneficial, but when a young kid is getting offered money to play, on what planet would he refuse? Paid by a team, with his best interests, who've probably soothed away any doubts or worry's he's had about taking cash. Where's his safety net?

Meanwhile the NCAA and USC are benefitting from this! Bush would have been a star wherever he went, and now he's being thrown to the wolves.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

That's not the point I was making though -- you can look at it that college football is mutually beneficial, but when a young kid is getting offered money to play, on what planet would he refuse? Paid by a team, with his best interests, who've probably soothed away any doubts or worry's he's had about taking cash. Where's his safety net?

Meanwhile the NCAA and USC are benefitting from this! Bush would have been a star wherever he went, and now he's being thrown to the wolves.

Any player playing College football should have the cop on to know he is breaking the rules. Look whether or not you agree with the NCAA or USC the players are Amateur athletes on NCAA scholarships that have rules. If the player feels like breaking the rule due to the temptation of cash well frankly that is his own fault and I am sure Reggie Bush took those kick backs with full knowledge of him breaking the rules.

Lirange

davyjose wrote: »

Paid by a team, with his best interests, who've probably soothed away any doubts or worry's he's had about taking cash. Where's his safety net?

Paid by a team?

Please refer to my previous post.

tallaghtoutlaws

The Heisman trust denied the Yahoo reports they were removing him of his Trophy:

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5542215

The Heisman Trophy Trust is denying a Yahoo Sports report that the trust is expected to strip former USC running back Reggie Bush of his 2005 Heisman Trophy and leave the award vacant.

"I can tell you the Heisman Trophy Trust has made no decision regarding the Reggie Bush situation," Robert Whalen, executive director of the Heisman Trophy Trust, told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Two sources close to the trust told Yahoo Sports that the organization is completing its investigation and will agree with the NCAA's finding that Bush accepted improper benefits while at USC and was ineligible during the 2005 season, according to the report. The NCAA cited USC for "lack of institutional control" and handed the Trojans four years' probation, a two-year bowl ban and a reduction in football scholarships.

The president of the Heisman Trophy Trust, William J. Dockery, reiterated that the reports were inaccurate.

"The status of the USC/Bush matter remains unchanged. Any reports to the contrary are inaccurate," Dockery said.

ESPN's Chris Fowler told "SportsCenter" that although members of the eight-person trust have had informal conversations among themselves about what to do about Bush's Heisman, "they certainly have not made any decision" about rescinding it.

"They haven't made a decision. No announcement is imminent," Fowler said Tuesday. "They have not had any formal meetings about this."

Dockery has said the Heisman Trophy Trust meets on the second Tuesday of every month.

Bush would become the first player in the 75-year history of the Heisman Trophy to have the award taken away.

"It is what it is," USC coach Lane Kiffin said after the team's practice on Tuesday. "Just like I tell our players, we worry about what we can control. We can't control what the decisions are gonna be of other people towards Reggie or his Heisman. It is a report. We've been told nothing by the Heisman Trust about them taking it back so we'll worry about it when it happens, if it does. And even if it does, we still can't control it. Our team doesn't even talk about it. We're worried about this opponent coming up and having a good week of practice."

In July, USC president C.L. Max Nikias ordered the school's athletic department to return its copy of Bush's 2005 Heisman to the Heisman Trophy Trust. Nikias also ordered the school to remove nearly all references to Bush and former basketball player O.J. Mayo, including murals, as part of the NCAA's directive to disassociate the school from the athletes.

As that time, Bush had not been asked to return his copy and the Heisman Trophy Trust said it had not yet decided whether Bush would be stripped of the award.

Bush met with Heisman representatives last month at the New York law offices of Emmet, Marvin & Martin, the sources said, according to the Yahoo report.

The sources declined to discuss the details of that meeting, according to the report.

Bush now plays for the Super Bowl champion New Orleans Saints, who said Tuesday that they would have no comment on the report.

Typically, the Saints have declined comment on Bush's NCAA violations because they have no bearing on his pro career.

Team headquarters also were closed to reporters on Tuesday.

Bush's Los Angeles-based attorney, Shawn Chapman Holley, did not immediately respond to a request for comment from the AP.

Last week, Texas coach Mack Brown said former Longhorns quarterback Vince Young, who finished second in the 2005 Heisman voting to Bush, should be given the award if Bush is stripped. Young led the Longhorns past USC to the BCS national championship that year, after Bush was awarded the Heisman in a landslide.

Tuesday, Young's mother said she has no interest in her son being awarded the Heisman now, KRIV-TV in Houston reported.

"We're not interested in having no honor and no glory out of somebody else they are trying to tear down, no," Felicia Young said, according to the report. "I say to Reggie Bush today 'You keep your head up.' "

The NCAA ruled that Bush received lavish gifts from two fledgling sports marketers hoping to sign him. The men paid for everything from hotel stays and a rent-free home where Bush's family apparently lived to a limousine and a new suit when he accepted his Heisman in New York in December 2005.

In July, when USC said it would give back its copy of the 2005 trophy, the Heisman Trophy Trust said it had no timetable on a decision and would make no additional statements on the matter.

"The Trust will be considering the issues raised in the USC/Reggie Bush matter, and after reaching a decision will publish it, but due to the complex issues involved and the Trust's desire to reach an appropriate decision, no definitive timetable has been established," the trust said. "Until the matter has been fully considered and a decision is reached, the Trust has no further comment."

Black Swan

"His latest work is titled Tarnished Heisman, which chronicles a scandal threatening to strip Reggie Bush of his Heisman Trophy. Allegedly, marketer Lloyd Lake was central in funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to Bush and his family while the running back was still an amateur athlete at USC."

Source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/allthingstrojan/2008/01/don-yaeger-disc.html

eagle eye

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

"His latest work is titled Tarnished Heisman, which chronicles a scandal threatening to strip Reggie Bush of his Heisman Trophy. Allegedly, marketer Lloyd Lake was central in funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to Bush and his family while the running back was still an amateur athlete at USC."

Source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/allthingstrojan/2008/01/don-yaeger-disc.html

Whats your take on it Blue? Do you think he should hold onto the Heisman or not?

Black Swan

eagle eye wrote: »

Whats your take on it Blue? Do you think he should hold onto the Heisman or not?

Reggie was an outstanding football player, but... According to the NCAA Reggie and his family realised extraordinary financial benefits from (non-USC) agents while he was playing at USC. It's hard for me to believe the claim by Reggie that he didn't know he was breaking the NCAA rules.

Further, I really doubt that Coach Pete Carroll or his staff knew what was going on with the Bush family 70 miles south in San Diego, but USC's reputation is trashed, scholarships for players are lost, millions in bowl game advertising is lost (that supported a private university that does not get taxpayer monies for tuition like state universities), and recruitment suffers for what Reggie was doing behind the scenes with agents.

He got millions when turning pro with the Saints and he left us trashed. Do you think we Trojans should have sympathy for him?