ICU Selfish attitude

dubes

Why have the people in the ICU got the wrong attitude towards canoeing?

If I am a begginer/intermediate paddler and I ring up the ICU saying I am interested in taking up/getting back into paddling, their response is to do a course at the centre.
Why dont they instead give the caller the number of a club?
The reason is they are too interested in the profits they will make if the person enrolls in a course in the centre.

The club scene is the real heart of canoeing in Ireland.
Look at all the racing clubs and the races they organise each year, similarily look at the polo clubs etc.
These are voluntary organisations and this is what paddling should be about.

Instead, the ICU just want paddlers to do courses with them and keep progressing to the next level so they can cash in more money.

Their response is that a paddler should do a course and then join a club but this is rubbish. How many paddlers ever branch out into a different discipline after doing a course? Very few, once they do a course, they have become a whitewater/recreational canoeist for life. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with whitewater canoeing but I believe paddelers should be given a taste of other disciplines before making up their mind!

I am not against levels, qualifications etc but I believe all canoeists should join clubs first and then complete their levels.


So what I am saying is that the ICU is an organisation who are more intersted in making a profit than the good of the sport.

MugMugs

dubes you seem very upset by all of this.

Would you not agree that "forward paddling" is one of the most difficult strokes for somebody starting off to master ? Your not going to put some new unfortunate into a K1 and send them off on their merry way on the first day.

Put them into a plastic white water boat and get them moving. It's then their call if they want to change away to a different discipline.

How are they meant to know the disciplines if they are completely fresh ?

I didn't know K1 or Polo boats or even squirt boats existed pre intro from "WWKC" many moons ago.

The ICU need to be self sufficient as-well. It isn't about profits. It about keeping our sport alive and represented in Ireland and the world...

I don't praticulary like the ICU of their set up but they are a good thing to have and we should be grateful for their work !

dubes

MugMugs wrote: »

dubes you seem very upset by all of this.

Would you not agree that "forward paddling" is one of the most difficult strokes for somebody starting off to master ? Your not going to put some new unfortunate into a K1 and send them off on their merry way on the first day.

Put them into a plastic white water boat and get them moving. It's then their call if they want to change away to a different discipline.

How are they meant to know the disciplines if they are completely fresh ?

I didn't know K1 or Polo boats or even squirt boats existed pre intro from "WWKC" many moons ago.

The ICU need to be self sufficient as-well. It isn't about profits. It about keeping our sport alive and represented in Ireland and the world...

I don't praticulary like the ICU of their set up but they are a good thing to have and we should be grateful for their work !

No im not trying to get every paddler into a k1, i think the fact that canoeing is multi discipline is great.
Yes, whitewater boats are ideal for that and most clubs, no matter what discipline have a good selction of these kind of boats.
Im not debating the best type of boat to start canoeing in, im saying the club scene should be promoted!!


The ICU are a good thing to have and we should support them??
We fund the ICU with our memberships every year!
Yes they are a good thing to have but they dont go about it the right way!

thetonynator

MugMugs wrote: »

dubes you seem very upset by all of this.

Would you not agree that "forward paddling" is one of the most difficult strokes for somebody starting off to master ? Your not going to put some new unfortunate into a K1 and send them off on their merry way on the first day.

Put them into a plastic white water boat and get them moving. It's then their call if they want to change away to a different discipline.

How are they meant to know the disciplines if they are completely fresh ?

I didn't know K1 or Polo boats or even squirt boats existed pre intro from "WWKC" many moons ago.

The ICU need to be self sufficient as-well. It isn't about profits. It about keeping our sport alive and represented in Ireland and the world...

I don't praticulary like the ICU of their set up but they are a good thing to have and we should be grateful for their work !

They cant change to a different discipline without going to a club: the ICU dont tell them to go to clubs.

The ICU will only cater for beginners in white water boats; they dont run courses for these people to advance into other disciplines, and on completion of a course, the advice given is generally to come back and do another course.

Truley

I'm confused - did you specify that you wanted to get into K1 paddling? Maybe they just presumed you're preferance was whitewater paddling. Unless someone specifies they wanted to try a discipline like K1 I would have recommended general purpose kayaking too.

And in fairness to the ICU, they probably presumed you would have looked into available local clubs yourself, which they do provide an information page for. If you are specifially contacting the ICU of couse they are going to pimp out their own services first and foremost.

Learning with a club has its advantages, however not all clubs provide formal training for beginners, or structured training at all for that matter. Maybe the ICU doesn't want to specifically recommend clubs to people as they can't guarantee it will provide the service you want? Clubs are great, (I am chairperson of one) but they are inconsistant and often very vague in what they will offer you in terms of training. At least with say, a level 2 skills course you know what you are getting, and from a qualified instructor.

My own club has largely operated as a peer paddling 'network' and doesn't offer any training for beginners, yet.

irishlostboy

i am really torn on this one. i dunno which i hate worse? the ICU or K1/polo paddling?? lol.
all joking aside, most clubs are rec/whitewater clubs also. and you will need to learn the basic skills first also, so it is not really relevent as to what boat you are in so long as it floats. clubs will have to put you through a certified level 2 proficiency course also probably anyway.
there are very many reasons to not like the ICU. very, very many reasons. just not really the one you seem to be making a point about.

all this aside, i do hope you get back into kayaking and have a wonderful time in whatever branch of the kayaking family you like.

dubes

irishlostboy wrote: »

i am really torn on this one. i dunno which i hate worse? the ICU or K1/polo paddling?? lol.
all joking aside, most clubs are rec/whitewater clubs also. and you will need to learn the basic skills first also, so it is not really relevent as to what boat you are in so long as it floats. clubs will have to put you through a certified level 2 proficiency course also probably anyway.
there are very many reasons to not like the ICU. very, very many reasons. just not really the one you seem to be making a point about.

all this aside, i do hope you get back into kayaking and have a wonderful time in whatever branch of the kayaking family you like.

I never got out of kayaking, I am merely commenting on the way the ICU operates, I am a full time kayaker!

Also why do you hate k1 paddlers and polo paddlers??

Chuchoter

I do agree (and have heard it said from several people) that the ICU hogs all the beginners, and they are so expensive too (50e extra to go on a river trip with a level 2 course?:eek: ). They don't tell anyone who rang them because they're the main body that there are several clubs they could also join. The clubs are the fun part, meeting all the people every week, not just the random levels that really mean nothing.

ec18

dubes wrote: »

I never got out of kayaking, I am merely commenting on the way the ICU operates, I am a full time kayaker!

Also why do you hate k1 paddlers and polo paddlers??

for the polo paddlers part anyway

Canoe Polio

irishlostboy

dubes wrote: »

Also why do you hate k1 paddlers and polo paddlers??

hate is far too strong a word. i just have a minus factor of interest in their existence. everyone has their own view of what kayaking "is". for you, you seem to have an idea that treating it like a sport and competing is important, and i am happy for ya. personally i feel competition only shows who has the biggest self esteem problems, and kayaking is a way of being, not a sport, to me.
but hey, that is all good. because there is enough room for us to think anything and do anything with kayaking. what any of this has to do with ICU i have no idea. you want something to bitch about the ICU about? there are plenty of legitamate problems with the ICU. i dont go near them with a 2 meter paddle. but what do you expect? they are just a burocracy. they dont really give a damn about anything but the continuance of their own organisation really. bit like government. but hey, that is all politics, and the day politics ever achieves anything i will die from the shock and awe.

bottom line? go paddling. it is that simple.

adrianshanahan

dubes wrote: »

Why have the people in the ICU got the wrong attitude towards canoeing?

If I am a begginer/intermediate paddler and I ring up the ICU saying I am interested in taking up/getting back into paddling, their response is to do a course at the centre.
Why dont they instead give the caller the number of a club?
The reason is they are too interested in the profits they will make if the person enrolls in a course in the centre.

The club scene is the real heart of canoeing in Ireland.
Look at all the racing clubs and the races they organise each year, similarily look at the polo clubs etc..

Hi,

I had to read you post a couple of times before I knew what you were on about, I would suggest that you views may be a little scewed?

If some one was to ask me how to get into canoeing/kayaking I would always suggest that taking part in a course is possibly the best course of action. The reason being for the most part you are going to get a better quality of instruction on an ICU course than just going to club sessions.

Now this is not always the case but for the most part I would stand behind it. I have seen countless "club taught paddlers" and there seems to be a massive inconsistency from really good to less than fantastic.

Personally I would like love if the ICU were in a position to give out details of professional instructors operating in the part of the country people are situated. I'm not saying an ICU qualification is a way to ensure quality of instruction but its the only yard stick we have for the moment.

I get contacted all of the time about introductory courses, its not the kinda stuff I run so always refer them to other coaches who I rate as offering quality courses.


Adrian

dubes

Adrian I would have to disagree with what you say.

An ICU course will give you a recognised qualification in whitewater kayaking and nothing else. Also I would question the quality of instruction received at the centre, certainly I have heard storys that would not put the ICU in a good light.

Many clubs will give a better introduction to paddling for beginners. The difference being that an ICU course givers aim is to get the paddler back to do another course for more money where as a club given course, which may not be given by a 'qualified' instructer is solely given to improve the paddler as the course giver is doing the course voluntarily.

Also, a club like Wild Water Kayak Club (which i am not a member of ) has so many disciplines that a paddler can choose from.

I would question how many paddlers ever go on to participate in any other discipline after doing an icu course?

dubes

irishlostboy wrote: »

hate is far too strong a word. i just have a minus factor of interest in their existence. everyone has their own view of what kayaking "is". for you, you seem to have an idea that treating it like a sport and competing is important, and i am happy for ya. personally i feel competition only shows who has the biggest self esteem problems, and kayaking is a way of being, not a sport, to me.
but hey, that is all good. because there is enough room for us to think anything and do anything with kayaking. what any of this has to do with ICU i have no idea. you want something to bitch about the ICU about? there are plenty of legitamate problems with the ICU. i dont go near them with a 2 meter paddle. but what do you expect? they are just a burocracy. they dont really give a damn about anything but the continuance of their own organisation really. bit like government. but hey, that is all politics, and the day politics ever achieves anything i will die from the shock and awe.

bottom line? go paddling. it is that simple.

You say that those who participate in competition have self esteem problems?
I would have to disagree.
I, as a marathon racer love racing. I have tried many differernt disciplines and I am a trainee level 2 instructor. However i still prefer paddling k boats over any other boat. I love the sense of speed compared to paddling a creek boat. Also racing keeps you fit, i train most days. how many obese k boat paddlers do you see? i have seen plenty of overweight whitewater paddlers.

adrianshanahan

Hi Dubes,

I see what your saying but I will have to say that for the most part there are some great quality instructors teaching on behalf of the ICU at the center. Like all places there are exceptions to this rule, such is life really.

If you read over my post again you will notice that I never once mention the qualification level of the instructor but refer to the "quality of instruction" sadly they are both not linked. I have friends who are great coaches whom have never entered the formal system, but the the current qualification system goes some way of ensuring a minimum level of ability for any given coach. I admit it's not perfect but its better than a pot luck system.

Teaching / Learning to a prescribed syllabus is shown to have the best results for the the majority of people. How effective any particular syllabus may or may not be is a whole other discussion.

As for the "other discipline" discussion that's happening, the entry level skills that are though from levels 1-2 are pretty generic across most of the paddle sport disciplines so that's a bit of a non argument really.

I have seen racing clubs who never expose their members to other disciplines as much if not more so than "white water instructors" not inform their students of other roads to follow in paddle sport. It all kinda links back to the syllabus where one of the aims is "to foster further participation in paddle sports"

So as Irishlostboy suggests lets all just get out boating and enjoy it as much as you can what ever your chosen craft is.


Adrian

Zuppy

I think the ICU is getting a bad rap -in this case-.

My advice to people is the same. Do a course as not only do you get a level 2 skill, otherwise known as the basics. But they provide the boats and you don't have a big outlay of cash.

But your right, as soon as it is finished you should be hooked up with a club.

Not getting involved in a competition versus recreational debate. Plenty of water for everyone.

Trevor E

I do think there over priced for what you get in return but I never paid for a course untill my level 4 assesment and I didn't bother with the training. Who is to say you even need your levels, some of the best kayakers I paddle with have never sat any ICU course and there doing just fine. They just learnt on the job.

Truley

Trevor E wrote: »

I do think there over priced for what you get in return but I never paid for a course untill my level 4 assesment and I didn't bother with the training. Who is to say you even need your levels, some of the best kayakers I paddle with have never sat any ICU course and there doing just fine. They just learnt on the job.

So true I was kayaking well over three years without ever joining the ICU. Didn't see the point as I wasn't availing of any of their services.

NathanKingerlee

I've got to agree with the OP. I think the ICU are inefficient, egotistically and politically driven, striving to justify their existance. It would be good to share this thread with them to possibly (but unlikely) wake them up a little. I've given up on them years ago and haven't physically seen one thing they've done in Kerry/Cork on a grass roots level to promote the sport for anyone.

adrianshanahan

Hey,

I think the whole ICU bashing is far too easy to jump into and start saying all sorts of things about them and what have they done for x,y,z

I have been around the boating scene for a long time at this stage are there are loads of things positive that have come from the ICU. Don't get me wrong I have had my grips and think there are ways in which things have could be improved but there is a change for progression over recent years.

The question is what do you want form your union, what tangible things do you think they should do for you / your region? More to the point what have you done to try get the ICU to address these issues?

I am involved in cycling and the Cycle Ireland membership cost is far far greater than ICU membership fees, the same goes for most other sport NGB charges.

No one says you have to be a part of it, but I would say try understand a little more before going writing it off. Especially considering every person on the technical committees is a volunteer and the office staff is very limited.



Adrian

joey100

I would have to disagree with a lot of what is said about the ICU. I have been paddling for the last 18-19 years and have worked for the ICU as well as many outdoor adventure centres and have paddled with the majority of clubs around the Dublin and Wicklow area.

The ICU is not trying to rob people from clubs, during every course I thought we were told to tell people that the ICU is not a club and clubs details were passed out at the end of the course. During the training sessions, beginners were introduced to elements of polo, slalom and freestyle. And with the location of the centre it would be hard for people not to enquire about the K boats flying by.

Politics exist in clubs across the country too and I have seen people leave clubs due to clashes of personalities and lack of instruction.

Like adrian said the only thing we haev to judge instructors on at the moment is their qualifications and at least with the ICU you are guaranteed fully qualified instructors. I have worked in clubs were the person helping as second instructor from the club had just got their level 2 as the water levels had risen and all the more qualified paddlers were down in Wicklow.

I think its very easy to bash the ICU but they do a lot of good work and promote the sport very well. If your not happy with the instruction you receive on a course let them know, they want to have the best possible instructors working for them.