'le pays des droits de l'homme' - Are You Sure?

sponsoredwalk

So it was fun a while back browsing the comments spread throughout
boards.ie on the topic of the Roma expulsion & the vitriol expressed by
some regulars. Noticeably absent by many of them was an equally
passionate desire to get the 50,000 criminal Irish living in the U.S. back to
our economy & I hope to see this topic addressed soon, however I just
wonder what people think of France as being ‘le pays des droits de
l'homme’ – ‘the country of human rights’when they hear that there were
never any official figures on behalf of the government on the crime levels
of Romanians,

The French Interior minister recently released figures on Roma crime rates
which suggested they had rocketed in the past few years. There are no
official statistics to support his statement, but there are several to
contradict it.


France’s recent crackdown on its Roma population has resulted in their
accelerated expulsion by the planeload back to their countries of origin.
This has in turn led to international criticism of French policies and even
accusations of racism and xenophobia. So it is only normal that the French
try to defend themselves, and that’s what Interior minister Brice Hortefeux
did a few days ago when he tried to defend government policies by
claiming that crime rates and “delinquency of Romanian origin” in Paris had
rocketed “by 138% in 2009 and 259% in eighteen months.” He added that

“Today, in Paris, the reality is that almost one thief in five is a Romanian”
and that “one theft in four by minors is committed by a Romanian minor.”
Now you have to admit that those are some very impressive figures even if
you forget that “Romanian” is not a synonym of “Roma.” They are so
impressive in fact that if they were true I myself would put every Roma in
this country on a plane and personally fly them to Bucharest. But this is
just too far-fetched to be true. The most pernicious aspect of these
figures is that there is absolutely no way to verify them. So where did he
get them from? There are no official sources, national statistics, nothing,
which can be consulted to verify his statement, which is not unusual in

France, a country which is notorious in the West for its reluctance to
inform the public on issues which concern it. (There are no statistics on
the ethnic make-up of the prison population, for example.) As Rue89
pointed out, French journalists have been slaving away for days trying to
find some official statistics or documents to back Hortefeux’s figures up,
but they haven’t been able to find any, even from direct police and
government sources such as ministries, judicial police, immigration
authorities and other official bodies. One source sent them to the STIC
statistics. These government statistics on recorded crime are so unreliable,
unverifiable and manifestly false that they are the laughing stock of the
whole of France. But even if they were reliable that would be completely
irrelevant, because the STIC database doesn’t have the statistics quoted
by Hortefeux either. Although police figures are hard to come by, there are
a few. What do they show? First of all, they show that the police do not
note the nationalities of their ‘clients.’ Also, many of those who show up in
figures do so because of infractions concerning authorization to be on

French territory, which means those crimes cannot be committed by
French nationals and thus should not be included in any comparison. Not
only that, the statistics show that the percentage of foreigners suspected
of breaking the law compared to French nationals had actually gone down
by 12.5% in 2009.

So if it were true that Roma crime has gone up by hundreds of points, it
must have mechanically gone down dramatically within other immigrant
groups. But that isn’t true according to the government itself, seeing as
officials never stop quoting figures on the supposed rising crime rates of
immigrant populations. So Hortefeux certainly did not get his figures there.

Available justice system figures don’t support him either. They, unlike
police figures, include the nationalities of those condemned before the
courts and there are figures available for 2007 and 2008. Those figures
contradict everything Hortefeux says. They say that in those two years,
the percentage of convicted individuals of Romanian origin went
down by 6%, for a total of 4,300. The population of France is 64
million. In other words, the only two available official sources for crime
figures relative to the Roma completely contradict what the government is
saying. So where did he get those figures?
contineud...

but others to contradict their claims,

Brussels - Bogdan Aurescu, State Secretary in the Romanian Minister of
Foreign Affairs, said that France has deported Roma people not on the
basis of crimes they have committed, but on the basis of the possibility
that they will commit crimes in the future.

The declaration was made in Brussels after the meeting between Bogdan
Aurescu and Viviane Reding, the European Commissioner for Justice and
Fundamental Rights, Romanian press agency Mediafax reports. According to
Aurescu, France is not right when using public order as an argument to
send Romanian citizens back to Bucharest. The Romanian State Secretary
said that the information provided by France shows that only 708 Romanian
citizens were imprisoned last year in this country, which represents 0.3%
from the total of foreigners accused of having committed crimes in France.

Bogdan Aurescu also told the Romanian press that none of the 500
Romanian citizens that were sent back to their home country had any
criminal record in France or Romania. He also pointed out that setting up a
minimum income for a stay shorter than three months of a European Union
citizen, in another EU state than his own, is an abuse which will affect the
right of free movement of EU citizens from Central and Eastern Europe.
“We explained to the European Commission that the solution to the problem
of the Roma community is not a ping-pong game with these people. France
cannot remove them from its territory without respecting the European
Directive 38/2004, it cannot stop them from coming back, and Romania
doesn’t have any right to stop them from moving freely as European
citizens”, said Bogdan Aurescu.
continued...

"Should we follow" was the question boardsies asked, should we? :rolleyes:
The UN chirped in with it's opposition which was nice coming from a
company that does nothing but voice disapproval when rogue nations do
something not in line with their mandates, but my questions is how could
the world, even a country known as a bastion of human rights, get so
sidetracked by it's own xenophobic tendencies as to base their arguments
on a social perception lacking statistical facts to back it up?
Not even the French Socialists were there for the Roma:

The French Socialist party and its senior representatives should have been
at the vanguard of today’s protests, but they are not. On the contrary,
they are conspicuous by their minimal presence, and Socialist leader
Martine Aubry is nowhere to be seen. They have left the field to a
rag-taggle bunch of largely unknown Ecologists, trade union
representatives and homeless associations, with a couple of human rights
organizations thrown in. But the Socialists are absent for a reason, and
that reason is precisely why the demonstrations today, although they
promise to be noisy and well-covered by the press, will have almost no
effect on the government’s policies. And why is that? Because the
Socialists and other opposition parties know that they have, incredibly,
absolutely no alternatives to Sarkozy’s policies and that they have never in
their 100-year history lifted a finger to help the Roma in this country.
In other words, they are part of the problem.
Continued...

In sum; when our leaders use false charges to expel minority groups how
can people stand for this? How could the world let the xenophobic
perceptions of some elements of society get the better of them?
At least there were protests in France over this expulsion scandal
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=63489
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=63396
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/09/201094133818605625.html
but this is another lesson in Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics &
Millgram's experiments on submission to authority to show how easily the
world can be fooled.

Banned Account

Can't even escape it in 'official' figures.


Dear sweet baby Jebus, can you tell the world that "Roma" and "Romanian" are not the same thing.


Please, please, please???

Jumpy

They are expelling illegal immigrants. They have asked several times to stop calling them Roma, as they are deporting all illegal immigrants. The highest percentage just happen to be Romany.

Banned Account

Jumpy wrote: »

They are expelling illegal immigrants. They have asked several times to stop calling them Roma, as they are deporting all illegal immigrants. The highest percentage just happen to be Romany.

Ah sure why let the facts get in the way of a good ole rabbling party??

Beruthiel

The French have always deported illegal immigrants.
I have a friend in the French police who's job it is to accompany illegals out of the country. He's been doing this for years. Nothing new here.

sponsoredwalk

Explain why the Roma people are receiving $385 if they agree to leave
while others have not received any such offer?
This single policy puts to rest the parsimonious claim that they are
simply cracking down on illegal immigrants irrespective of ethnicity.
They are simply ignoring the concept of integration adhered to by 12 other
EU nations. We have people accused of racist insults heading this
cleansing operation ffs, hardly the parsimonious guidance required when
dealing with such a sensitive issue.

Everywhere the Roma go they are, by definition, foreigners and are treated
horribly, France aren't the only country targeting the Roma with similar
tactics, when a few countries in Europe all target the same minority groups
what is that called? Justice? I suppose the countries practicing integration
with the Roma people are breaking human rights laws :rolleyes:

The Roma are the biggest minority group in Europe ranging from 6 to 10
Million, they face social exclusion nearly everywhere forcing them into
"de facto ghetto's", have a life expectancy of 15 years less than the
average person and are the brunt of continual racist remarks by
governments in Europe. 77% of Europeans consider being Roma a
disadvantage, this is 2% shy of 79% and that just so happens to be the
percentage of Europeans who consider being disabled a disadvantage.
Link for all of the above What kind of policy is it for les pays de droit de
l'hommes to contribute to creating the social environment that fosters
such a life for those creatures called human beings?

But both the Sarkozy campaign and the attacks on it have sometimes
confused juvenile delinquents in the poor suburbs, many of them Muslim,
with the Roma, who are not French, and the French travelers, who have
the right to stay in their own country. French law requires municipalities to
provide space for the gens du voyage to park and hook up to electricity
and water. But the mayors have been reluctant, and the government
admits it has provided space to less than half of the travelers, and many of
them have set up illegal camps.
Link

Why aren't these people expelled from their jobs for only doing half of the
work they are supposed to? If they're so high and mighty about justice
you'd think they would follow their own laws :rolleyes:

What's even more ridiculous is that after this 3-month quest to find work
despite having a 77% disadvantage compared to other people, they
can come back straight away completely legally. It's a cat and mouse
game by the government that claims to lead the way for human rights
yet can't grasp the concept of integration.

France says it expelled 10,000 Roma last year — two-thirds of the
estimated Roma population of France — without all this publicity. But the
Roma have been skilled at returning to Romania and Bulgaria, where they
say they face worse discrimination and poverty, and then slipping back into
France, where, under European Union rules, they can enter without a visa.

Olivier Bernard, a pediatrician who is president of Doctors of the World in
France, said that the issue was being blown out of proportion. He said that
the Roma did not present a major problem, given their small numbers, and
that the expulsion campaign had been going on for a few years.

It is one thing to throw them out for overstaying, he said. “But the person
can come back, the next day, completely legally,” he said. What has
changed, he said, is the aggressiveness and frequency of the camp
clearings.

As citizens of states that recently joined the European Union, Romanians
and Bulgarians are treated differently by law for a transitional period, and it
is difficult for them to get work permits, Mr. Kushen said. Those legal
restrictions should disappear by 2014.
Link

Talk about loaded dice :mad:

The New York Times points out that mass expulsions of one ethnic group
are illegal under European Union rules, but Sarkozy’s “voluntary”
deportations skirt the rules.

“On Thursday, France flew some 100 Roma home to Romania — people
who France insists agreed to leave voluntarily for a flight and a
resettlement sum of about $385 instead of facing the chance of
forcible expulsion in a month.

“Robert A. Kushen, executive director of the Budapest-based European
Roma Rights Centre, said that by providing this essentially false
choice, “the French are trying to insulate themselves from legal
challenge, arguing that those who leave are doing so voluntarily and
are not being expelled as a group.”’

Sarkozy’s critics allege his Roma crackdown is political in nature, created to
appeal to right-wing conservatives. And others fear, including the
Romanian president, that a public crackdown on foreigners will create a
climate of fear and bigotry.

“Romania’s President Traian Basescu said the expulsions showed the need
for a Europe-wide plan on integrating Roma communities while Foreign
Minister Teodor Baconschi warned against “xenophobic reactions” after the
economic downturn.”
link

I hear talk of an impending calamity due to Europe having such low
retirement ages and so many people who will be old and we'll have to
support them & the world will end because we're too liberal ergo we
must increase the retirement age & cheat all those people we promised
to provide for after loyal service to the fake ideals we posited at the time.
Well here is a section of human beings that has a majority of it's
population under 20 that has the capacity to contribute to making the
world better but instead we, as Europeans, indirectly support policies
such as ghettoization, building walls, forced evictions for failing to
overcome the loaded dice policies we implement.

This is hardly just a political matter, these are real people.
If this is all just a question of figures, policies & numbers you should watch
the video in the link and see how things are for human beings who fall
under the brunt of our triumphant cosmopolitanism.

The Roma(ni) are hardly coming to countries like France, Italy, Slovakia
etc... for the fine social exclusion & hatred we're capable of, they are
doing what people in Ireland in the 1800's did when going to America, what
millions of people did in France around 1948 as well. It just so happens that
this shift to France contributed greatly to building up their destroyed
country but now they want to pull the rug out from people because
they aren't needed. It's a sickening thing, especially when Europe is,
like it or not, becoming integrated.

Zambia

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

. Noticeably absent by many of them was an equally
passionate desire to get the 50,000 criminal Irish living in the U.S. back to
our economy & I hope to see this topic addressed soon,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67911167#post67911167

As you wish, no time like the present.