LH options?

Amazotheamazing

Looking at the teams that played last weekend, Munster started with a capped South African, du Preez, Leinster started with a capped South African, van der Merwe, Ulster started with Young and Connacht started with the now Irish but originally South African, Wilkinson.

A big problem is that it's likely, all things being equal, that the two SA players with Munster and Leinster will be favoured over Irish internationals like Horan and Healy, neither of whom are as good scrummagers as the Africans, in HEC games. On the otherhand, if the IRFU force the two provinces to start the Irish players they are seriously weakening the teams.

Are we going to see Ireland forced to pick players who are subs for their HEC teams? It could open up places for guys like Court and Wilkinson in the Irish team.

Diom

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Looking at the teams that played last weekend, Munster started with a capped South African, du Preez, Leinster started with a capped South African, van der Merwe, Ulster started with Young and Connacht started with the now Irish but originally South African, Wilkinson.

A big problem is that it's likely, all things being equal, that the two SA players with Munster and Leinster will be favoured over Irish internationals like Horan and Healy, neither of whom are as good scrummagers as the Africans, in HEC games. On the otherhand, if the IRFU force the two provinces to start the Irish players they are seriously weakening the teams.

Are we going to see Ireland forced to pick players who are subs for their HEC teams? It could open up places for guys like Court and Wilkinson in the Irish team.

Wilkinson and Court are both Irish qualified, so what's your point? Is it that only Irish born props should be recognised at international level? Not sure but are you also saying that being forced to pick props from Connacht is something bad?
Connacht had 5 Irish qualified front row players on the pitch on Saturday and the Connacht front row was dominant, against the Dragons who are an HEC playing side. I think it is very unfair to judge players based on anything other than ability, the fact that they play in the HEC shouldn't really be a factor.

buck65

Like I said about Buckley in the other thread , Healy is really our only option. Give him time to learn to scrummage and he has it all.
The others including Horan will be fighting for a place on the bench.

outwest

wilkonson and court playing week in week out will not do them any favours in getting in the irish sqaud. horan will always be picked even tho form says he should even be in the training squad, and healy will start for leinster.

Amazotheamazing

Diom wrote: »

Wilkinson and Court are both Irish qualified, so what's your point? Is it that only Irish born props should be recognised at international level? Not sure but are you also saying that being forced to pick props from Connacht is something bad?
Connacht had 5 Irish qualified front row players on the pitch on Saturday and the Connacht front row was dominant, against the Dragons who are an HEC playing side. I think it is very unfair to judge players based on anything other than ability, the fact that they play in the HEC shouldn't really be a factor.

No, I've no issue with players being naturalised Irishmen like Wilkinson, and Court's grandfather is from Limerick so he's fine too. My point is that Healy and Horan are inferior players to the SA-capped players ahead of them and they could struggle to get HEC gametime this year.

Frankly, I think Wilkinson is the best scrummaging LH available to Ireland, and Court is inferior to Healy in the loose but far better than him in the scrum. Will Healy get a chance to progress without playing in big HEC games?

Diom

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, I've no issue with players being naturalised Irishmen like Wilkinson, and Court's grandfather is from Limerick so he's fine too. My point is that Healy and Horan are inferior players to the SA-capped players ahead of them and they could struggle to get HEC gametime this year.

Frankly, I think Wilkinson is the best scrummaging LH available to Ireland, and Court is inferior to Healy in the loose but far better than him in the scrum. Will Healy get a chance to progress without playing in big HEC games?

Cheers for clarifying.
TBH one of the best things about Connacht is that the Irish lads can get good time in the FR, and time and experience count more there than anywhere. So it would be a big problem is Healy is not playing enough. However, with the new rule interpretations having front row players like Healy makes a lot of sense, as the set piece play will become less of a focus.... although that applies more to the line-out than the scrum.
It will be interesting, to say the least, seeing how the props cope with the higher tempo (although last weekend the rules were kinda old-school...maybe they are easing them in?).

thehighground

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Looking at the teams that played last weekend, Munster started with a capped South African, du Preez, Leinster started with a capped South African, van der Merwe, Ulster started with Young and Connacht started with the now Irish but originally South African, Wilkinson.

A big problem is that it's likely, all things being equal, that the two SA players with Munster and Leinster will be favoured over Irish internationals like Horan and Healy, neither of whom are as good scrummagers as the Africans, in HEC games. On the otherhand, if the IRFU force the two provinces to start the Irish players they are seriously weakening the teams.

Are we going to see Ireland forced to pick players who are subs for their HEC teams? It could open up places for guys like Court and Wilkinson in the Irish team.

A lot of the Irish qualified looseheads would have been on the summer tour and would not be fully match fit, so its a bit premature at this stage to suggest that Healy or Horan won't be the starting LH's for their provinces come the HCup games.

anonymous_joe

It's come up time and time again, but quite simply, we do not produce large numbers of competent (note: not even good, or excellent, or world class) props. The teams have no choice but to look abroad.

profitius

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's come up time and time again, but quite simply, we do not produce large numbers of competent (note: not even good, or excellent, or world class) props. The teams have no choice but to look abroad.

Its about time we started to. We have the raw materials to be up there as a world class proping nation.

Its looking healthy this season. Dave Ryan is better than Horan IMO but the Irish system is holding him back. It must be very frustrating for him. Horan can still do a job too I'd say.

In Ulster they are raving about 20 year old Paddy McAllister. He's good in the loose as well as scrummaging.

Leinster have Healy, McGrath and Jack O'Connell. Darragh Hurley in Munster looks to be injury prone unfortunatly.

This season with the new scrum coaches I'm expecting a massive imporvement in Irish scrums. Remember some of these players have not been getting proper coaching for years and then when they are being beat up in the scrums the confidence drains away.

TheTMO

profitius wrote: »

Leinster have Healy, McGrath and Jack O'Connell. Darragh Hurley in Munster looks to be injury prone unfortunatly.

Don't think Jack O'Connell is still with Leinster (stand to be corrected), Healy, McGrath and Maguire would be the 3 big young prospects

profitius

TheTMO wrote: »

Don't think Jack O'Connell is still with Leinster (stand to be corrected), Healy, McGrath and Maguire would be the 3 big young prospects

He's in the academy according to this.

[Jackass]

I don't think Healy will be pushed out of the Leinster team that easily!! He's also improving year on year and has about 10 - 15 years left in him in the Irish jersey.

On that basis alone, I'd be amazed if he doesn't retain the #1 jersey for Ireland, and I think he'll hold onto the jersey for Leinster.

But, on a side note, you know you're seeing exactly what SHOULDN'T happen, but is a result of professional sport, when first choice in the national team is struggling to make it into their local team...

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

I don't think Healy will be pushed out of the Leinster team that easily!! He's also improving year on year and has about 10 - 15 years left in him in the Irish jersey.

On that basis alone, I'd be amazed if he doesn't retain the #1 jersey for Ireland, and I think he'll hold onto the jersey for Leinster.

But, on a side note, you know you're seeing exactly what SHOULDN'T happen, but is a result of professional sport, when first choice in the national team is struggling to make it into their local team...

While I agree with the sentiment, Healy isn't near the same level of scrummaging as van der Mewre, who was a great bit of business by Leinster, but who's also young enough to play with Leinster for the next 7 or 8 years.

thehighground

profitius wrote: »

Its about time we started to. We have the raw materials to be up there as a world class proping nation.

Its looking healthy this season. Dave Ryan is better than Horan IMO but the Irish system is holding him back. It must be very frustrating for him. Horan can still do a job too I'd say.

Dave Ryan is injured according to the Munster website.

Prop Dave Ryan is out with a quad strain picked up in training while Tom Gleeson and Declan Cusack are struggling with groin injuries.


http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/7867.php

Just as well Horan can still do a job then!

thehighground

[Jackass] wrote: »

I don't think Healy will be pushed out of the Leinster team that easily!! He's also improving year on year and has about 10 - 15 years left in him in the Irish jersey.

On that basis alone, I'd be amazed if he doesn't retain the #1 jersey for Ireland, and I think he'll hold onto the jersey for Leinster.

But, on a side note, you know you're seeing exactly what SHOULDN'T happen, but is a result of professional sport, when first choice in the national team is struggling to make it into their local team...

Actually, I think Healy disimproved last season. He certainly didn't improve. Could be because he was being played too much for such a young prop.

Cheika said in an interview that it will take him another 5-6 years to reach his potential (of world class).

[Jackass]

Well I don't think he was AS good as the previous season, but as he's nailed down the Leinster & Irish 1 jersey, he's consistantly been up against much better scrummaging opposition than he's ever faced before, but I agree on the face of it he struggled more in the scrum last season, but I think he still has a way to go before he'll be top class at international level.

I think 1 signing and 1 game later, to say he's near second fiddle is premature. Competition has been put in place and the marker has been set. I'd be amazed if we didn't see a big reaction from a guy like Healy when the oppertunities come.

Also, it's a jersey that needs to be rotated, particularly in a world cup year. With burnout being an issue with players who reach a high level so early in their career, it's in everyone's interest that players can get a break, especially when the other options are also of a very good quality.

I'd be interested in seeing if Healy could ever make a transition to tight head, but his scrummaging would need serious work.

profitius

Last season Irish packs hadn't a clue how to scrummage. It got to the point where they were expecting to be beaten up in scrums. The props were on a hiding to nothing really.

This season if the scrums can scrummage as a proper unit and give a proper platform for the props I think the likes of Healy will be fine. He's naturally powerful and just needs some more experiance. He needs to play less games this season though. I think the experiance will have done him good but not the amount of games.

Munsters scrum has been very good so far this season because they've been putting alot of work into it over the summer. Leinster have a new scrum coach too so that'll really help the Irish props to at least hold their own.