Does altruism actually exist?

Sanjuro

Is there actually such a think as a selfless act? I mean, obviously people do things without looking for anything in return. But, for example, recently I did something for a mate that put me out quite a bit, but I did it to help him. I stood to gain nothing from it. But I thought 'hey, this should buy me a bit of good karma!' Now, obviously, it stands to reason that you need to believe in karma in order for this thought to be legitimate. But is there such a think as altruism and selflessness?


Christ, I'm hungover.

Dravokivich

Yeap... seen it discussed here before...

starbelgrade

If you were being truly altruistic, the thought, 'hey, this should buy me a bit of good karma!', has surely canceled it out.

Winty

Altruism is a myth

All humans look after themselves.

The good shepard only helps people on the belief that he or she can can get into Heaven

starbelgrade

Winty wrote: »

The good shepard only helps people on the belief that he or she can can get into Heaven

Presuming that the shephard believes in heaven, of course.

Sanjuro

starbelgrade wrote: »

If you were being truly altruistic, the thought, 'hey, this should buy me a bit of good karma!', has surely canceled it out.

That's my point. It was selfless until I though about karma.

thebigbiffo

i gave a mate of mine 20 quid at the weekend knowing full well i'd never see it again. am i in?

starbelgrade

Sanjuro wrote: »

That's my point. It was selfless until I though about karma.

Karma is a Buddhist concept. I don't understand why so many people in the west believe in it.

I blame My Name is Earl for it's current popularity.

kfallon

Everybody wants at the very least a 'thanks' for doing something for somebody else!

Banned Account

I once did a really ugly burd just so she could enjoy herself. That makes me awesomely altruistic I reckon.:cool:

My name is URL

Not according to Dawkins - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

kfallon

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I once did a really ugly burd just so she could enjoy herself. That makes me awesomely altruistic I reckon.:cool:

If you still blew your load than it doesn't make you altruistic

Sanjuro

starbelgrade wrote: »

Karma is a Buddhist concept. I don't understand why so many people in the west believe in it.

I blame My Name is Earl for it's current popularity.

Yeah, I don't really believe in karma myself. But the very idea of feeling proud of myself renders the selflessness irrellevant, does it not? I mean, shouldn't selflessness itself warrant some sort of suffering on the part of the person being selfless?

consultech

Yeah I definitely think it's a... (I can't think of the word? I wanna say paradox? oxymoron? I dunno...)

I compare it to being superstitious: I was walking down a road with a mate once, and as we approached a ladder accross the path he made the point that he wasn't superstitious, and to prove this he was going to walk under the ladder, presumably to effect - or not effect - an outcome. He looked slightly confused when I pointed out the irony of what he was doing.

mecanoman

Donating blood once every 3 months at the Blood bank, does that count.
(i know get a cup or tea and a bag of taytos out of it :pac: but still)

karma_

Winty wrote: »

Altruism is a myth

All humans look after themselves.

The good shepard only helps people on the belief that he or she can can get into Heaven

Altruism is most certainly not a myth. It has been well documented in nature where members of a herd will put themselves in danger for the safety of the majority. Therefore if it exists like this in nature it most certainly exists in humans.

My name is URL

karma_ wrote: »

Altruism is most certainly not a myth. It has been well documented in nature where members of a herd will put themselves in danger for the safety of the majority. Therefore if it exists like this in nature it most certainly exists in humans.

I think the argument is that behavior like that amongst animals is not a selfless or altruistic one but one which cements their own place within the group. I'm not fully convinced of it myself but scientists certainly seem to think that every act is a selfish one in some way.

consultech

karma_ wrote: »

Altruism is most certainly not a myth. It has been well documented in nature where members of a herd will put themselves in danger for the safety of the majority. Therefore if it exists like this in nature it most certainly exists in humans.

Not necessarily. One species killing its own is generally rare in animals, whereas prevalent in humans. This is based solely on the disparity between our mental and physical evolution.

Perhaps then the question should be: Does Human altruism exist? Have we mentally evolved to a point where it is literally impossible not to derive some positive feeling (benefit) from an apparently "selfless" act? Personally I think so, because it is humanly (arf) impossible not to eventually excessively think on our actions and complicate them with emotional by-produce.

Sanjuro

karma_ wrote: »

Altruism is most certainly not a myth. It has been well documented in nature where members of a herd will put themselves in danger for the safety of the majority. Therefore if it exists like this in nature it most certainly exists in humans.

Well that would be more instinct than a conscious decision, right? It's different in humans in that a selfless act is a conscious decision after weighing up the consequences.

Terry

I think it does exist.
It's not very common, but it's there.

A few months ago I was walking back from the shops. There a drunk eejit about 20 yards in front of me, at the end of a narrow laneway. An old woman stopped me and asked if I would walk with her because she was afraid of the drunk.
I didn't realy want to do it because I was in a bad mood and just wanted to get home, but I did it anyway. I didn't feel good about doing it.
I know the drunk and know that he's a harmless jackass. He's well known around the town. I could have left her there in the knowledge that she wouldn't be harmed, but I could see she was afraid, so I walked across the road with her. ****ing bitch walked really slowly too.

consultech

Terry wrote: »

I think it does exist.
It's not very common, but it's there.

A few months ago I was walking back from the shops. There a drunk eejit about 20 yards in front of me, at the end of a narrow laneway. An old woman stopped me and asked if I would walk with her because she was afraid of the drunk.
I didn't realy want to do it because I was in a bad mood and just wanted to get home, but I did it anyway. I didn't feel good about doing it.
I know the drunk and know that he's a harmless jackass. He's well known around the town. I could have left her there in the knowledge that she wouldn't be harmed, but I could see she was afraid, so I walked across the road with her. ****ing bitch walked really slowly too.

You won't admit it, but you had a duty of care (of sorts) to her. You were safeguarding yourself against the guilt you would feel if anything did happen to her, however small a chance of that happening as there was.

karma_

Sanjuro wrote: »

Well that would be more instinct than a conscious decision, right? It's different in humans in that a selfless act is a conscious decision after weighing up the consequences.

All I can tell you that altruistic actions in animals are well documented, I don't really buy the notion that each act is selfish to some extent.

clived2

Does the op believe a person can be selfish?

Terry

I truly was not.
I have known the drunk dude for most of my life. His brother used to live next door to me.
He's not violent. He was laughing at something that day as he made his way down the road.
The old woman knew who he was.
Half of Leixlip know the drunk guy to see. I'd imagine that 75% of the adults in this town have encountered him in a pub or on the main street at one time or another. He's annoying, but he's not in the least bit dangerous.
I can say with 100% certainty that absolutely no harm would have befallen the old woman had I not stayed with her.

Sanjuro

clived2 wrote: »

Does the op believe a person can be selfish?

Do I believe a person can be selfish? I believe almost everything we do is selfish to some extent. I was asking do truly altruistic acts exist. That's the complete opposite of selfishness.

clived2

Terry wrote: »

I truly was not.
I have known the drunk dude for most of my life. His brother used to live next door to me.
He's not violent. He was laughing at something that day as he made his way down the road.
The old woman knew who he was.
Half of Leixlip know the drunk guy to see. I'd imagine that 75% of the adults in this town have encountered him in a pub or on the main street at one time or another. He's annoying, but he's not in the least bit dangerous.
I can say with 100% certainty that absolutely no harm would have befallen the old woman had I not stayed with her.

You dropped the hand didnt you,
You selfish bastard

clived2

Sanjuro wrote: »

Do I believe a person can be selfish? I believe almost everything we do is selfish to some extent. I was asking do truly altruistic acts exist. That's the complete opposite of selfishness.

If you believe in selfishness, you believe we are self aware, hence we could be selfless, ie I could choose to be selfish, why couldnt i choose not to be selfish

hullaballoo

Many people will only experience altruism from a handful of people in their life and that's usually a parent or close relative.

Some people are altruistic by nature but their altruism is very rarely rewarded and sometimes can reflect negatively on them because people assume "they must be after something". I've experienced this myself.

Terry

clived2 wrote: »

You dropped the hand didnt you,
You selfish bastard

Shh. I'm trying to pretend that I'm altruistic.

Misanthrope

Calvinists believe there is no altruism only 'total depravity", that is,we are all out for ourselves and very single action we make is for our own benefit, even when it has the appearance of altruism.For the most part I agree.But I believe I have witnessed a few exceptions.

A doctor stopping at a serious road crash to save the life of the driver before the ambulance got there, was one example.He just happened to be passing while on holiday with his family.He could have passed on by no problem, kept his hands clean and not risked a lawsuit from the victims lawyers, not to mention the prospect of having a corpse on his hands,court appearances etc.I could not see any benefit for the doctor in stopping.He just left once the ambulance took over.He gave the cops his details and I'm fairly certain he didn't bill anyone.

Where I live today,doctors don't stop.The chance of getting sued is so high it's not worth the risk.You could save a man's life and then have yours ruined by the one you helped.

I think, considering it's reckoned she was actually an atheist, that Mother Theresa must have been an altruist.

consultech

Misanthrope wrote: »

A doctor stopping at a serious road crash to save the life of the driver before the ambulance got there, was one example.He just happened to be passing while on holiday with his family.He could have passed on by no problem, kept his hands clean and not risked a lawsuit from the victims lawyers, not to mention the prospect of having a corpse on his hands,court appearances etc.I could not see any benefit for the doctor in stopping.He just left once the ambulance took over.

As above; How's about absolving himself of the guilt of knowing he had the ability to save a man's life but didn't? It's the same (honest) reason we hand €50 back when someone drops it on the street. There was a thread recently about handing a lost €2k in. I don't recall anyone saying they'd give it back "just to be nice" - Moreso it was because "I couldn't live with the guilt" or "Karma yada yada yada". The doctor (on some level) was protecting himself from the inevtiable guilt of doing nothing.

Misanthrope

consultech wrote: »

As above; How's about absolving himself of the guilt of knowing he had the ability to save a man's life but didn't? It's the same (honest) reason we hand €50 back when someone drops it on the street. There was a thread recently about handing a lost €2k in. I don't recall anyone saying they'd give it back "just to be nice" - Moreso it was because "I couldn't live with the guilt" or "Karma yada yada yada". The doctor (on some level) was protecting himself from the inevtiable guilt of doing nothing.

Protecting himself from guilt by putting himself in the line of fire to be sued and put out of business?Death is a fact of life for doctors, much more so than for the average person.I honestly don't think guilt is a huge factor for them.

As for the money thing.If I find a load of cash and I can't discern who lost it, I will simply pocket it with not a trace of guilt.If I do know whose money it is,and I reckon they are decent, they'll get their money back.If it turned out to be Bertie Aherns loot though, I would take it gleefully and think about how I could rob him again.

Sticky_Fingers

Misanthrope wrote: »

Calvinists believe there is no altruism only 'total depravity", that is,we are all out for ourselves and very single action we make is for our own benefit, even when it has the appearance of altruism.For the most part I agree.But I believe I have witnessed a few exceptions.

Why would you listen to people who believe in a giant talking tiger?

I think, considering it's reckoned she was actually an atheist, that Mother Theresa must have been an altruist.

Mother Theresa was no saint, I'd go as far and say that she was a sadist cow. All the money that was donated to her Home for the Dying went straight into the Vatican coffers or into the construction of new convents for her order, very little went to ease the suffering of the people in her care. She believed that through human suffering you came closer to god, is that someone you want ministering to you on you deathbed.

*I expect to be absolutely crucified on here for daring to question the myth and legend that has grown up are this old harpy*

My name is URL

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

*I expect to be absolutely crucified on here for daring to question the myth and legend that has grown up are this old harpy*

Have you ever heard Christopher Hitchens' take on her? Harsh to say the least.. I'm sure she wasn't perfect but she done far more good than most of those who try to vilify her

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60

the other 2 parts are there somewhere too

Mr. CooL ICE

Jack Bauer is altruism personified

Sticky_Fingers

My name is URL wrote: »

Have you ever heard Christopher Hitchens' take on her? Harsh to say the least.. I'm sure she wasn't perfect but she done far more good than most of those who try to vilify her

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60

the other 2 parts are there somewhere too

Harsh but fair IMO, she was nothing but a money making PR tool for the RCC. I accept that she was human and like the rest of us subject to the same frailties but the representation of her some kind of saintly old prune really sticks in my craw. Gandhi is another one where there is an almost mystical reverence for, despite the fact that he was a bit of a racist who didn't like black people.


These people are human who have tried to do good and in some cases succeed but that does not make them the paradigms of virtue that they are portrayed to be. we should just bit the bullet and slay these golden calves once and for all and just accept that they are just people, who may command your respect but not your unquestioning devotion.

clived2

LordChessington wrote: »

Jack Bauer is altruism personified

Yeah but he is getting paid to act that way;)
The selfish bastard