blackpowder guns

blackpowder

hi guys im new to the furums so please be gentle lol anyway i was wondering what is the legality in this country on blckpowder/pyrodex firearms ,shooting i,ve looked at the small amount of legislation there is on shooting blackpowder and it seems to be a very grey area i know for a fact shooting rerroduction guns is very popular in england and the a lot of e,u countries why is it such a problem in ireland ?
i ve spoken to gun dealers and have said to me that just not to bother going there what do you guys think?

Bananaman

I'm no expert but I believe BP comes under the explosives act which we are reliably informed is currently under review - at the moment it is not really feasible to gain a license to purchase it - I am sure it is possible but not easily

Pyrodex I am not sure about - I am sure those with more specific knowledge will be along shortly

B'Man

sfakiaman

Another possible problem is that any BP firearm would be of a calibre that would put it in the restricted category.

tac foley

At this time Black Powder [BP] is covered by the provisions of the 1875 Explosives Act - an act which is under review.

BP substitutes, such as Pyrodex, Triple 7 and Cleanshot are classed as propellants by the rest of the world, although in RoI they are not actually documented in the Explosives Act, and therefore, officially do not exist as such. This is because back in 1875 there were no other alternatives to BP - that is all there was. Smokeless powder was around fifteen years in the future and the new BP subsitutes around a hundred years away.

In the fullness of time, prolly after I'm long gone, you might be able to shoot BP firearms in the Republic of Ireland for the sheer fun of it, like almost all of the rest of the world does, not just the EU. In Belgium, for instance, if you are over 18 you can freely buy 10kg of black powder over the counter. And in the USA you can play with full-size cannons to your heart's content - see Youtube for some of the fun THAT gets you.

As the previous poster noted, the other slight problem where black powder firearms is concerned is that the vast majority of them have a larger bore-size than just about anything currently shot in the RoI - this would bring even a .36 calibre single-shot BP target pistol into the realms of a 'Restricted Firearm'.

That little problem, however, is something quite a way down the road, if the present snail's pace of progress is maintained by the guys in Malfunction Junction on the Liffey.

tac

rrpc

sfakiaman wrote: »

Another possible problem is that any BP firearm would be of a calibre that would put it in the restricted category.

Not quite. Smoothbore firearms are considered as shotguns and before the license fees changed, were a bit cheaper to license than rifles.

Getting the powder is another ball of wax and as Bananaman alluded, will not be resolved until the explosives act is updated. Currently we're working on an act that hearkens back to when black powder firearms were still in use: 1875 :eek:

Black powder rifled firearms would be licensed in accordance with their calibre and since the majority were over .308" in size, would be considered restricted firearms.

sfakiaman

rrpc wrote: »

Not quite. Smoothbore firearms are considered as shotguns and before the license fees changed, were a bit cheaper to license than rifles. .

However, if you licenced a BP long gun as a shotgun you would (I presume) have to use it as a shotgun and not fire single projectiles as that would be back into the restricted area like rifled slugs.

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

Er, yes. But not quite. As there certainly are BP shotguns that are nothing else other than shotguns as we know them, there are also many smooth-bore muskets and long guns - NOT in the more common shotgun calibres - 12,16 and 20 gauge - that shoot a single projectile - in this case, a patched or even an unpatched ball. I have included the .75 cal Brown Bess for a reason - it is also the diameter of a 12 gauge shotgun bore, and could there easily be used as one.

There are in fact quite a number of them licensed in this country as smoothbores. I have personally beheld and held such a creature . Persons registered under the explosives act 1875 are entitled to purchase and store black powder.

tac foley

rrpc wrote: »

There are in fact quite a number of them licensed in this country as smoothbores. I have personally beheld and held such a creature . Persons registered under the explosives act 1875 are entitled to purchase and store black powder.

Well, Mr Blackpowder, there is your answer from Mr rrpc.

tac

blackpowder

are you serious my good man???? i have searched like the holy grail for information i have a number of questions 1. where and how does one go about applying i recall something about a c4 form or somehing way back but it looked a lot of trouble i recall having to have a storage bunker lol , health and safety ,local authority premission, maps of the area and there was the issue of obtaining your prowder is it really legally for sale anywhere in the state. in any registered firearms dealers or does one have to import under license in to the state i,am a big fan of this kind of sport and it would be great to see it take of here in ireland any information you have on the finer details of licenscing woulod be great tanks a million for your time and information ss

rrpc

blackpowder wrote: »

are you serious my good man???? i have searched like the holy grail for information i have a number of questions 1. where and how does one go about applying i recall something about a c4 form or somehing way back but it looked a lot of trouble i recall having to have a storage bunker lol , health and safety ,local authority premission, maps of the area and there was the issue of obtaining your prowder is it really legally for sale anywhere in the state. in any registered firearms dealers or does one have to import under license in to the state i,am a big fan of this kind of sport and it would be great to see it take of here in ireland any information you have on the finer details of licenscing woulod be great tanks a million for your time and information ss

I hate to get your hopes up, only to dash them again, but you have two different hurdles to jump.

First, I note from the FCA1 form that there isn't quite a category that you can use for BP firearms. You could go with either shotgun or rifle or other but you get stumped with the second category that doesn't have a box for muzzle loader. 'other' again I would imagine, but you'd have to talk it over with the Gardai.

The second hurdle is much more difficult and far more expensive. Currently you need a plethora of security and fire prevention measures and need to apply not only to the DoJ and Gardai but also your local authority.

This requirement may change with the new act where reloading is also being considered, so my advice to you is to wait for that. The people I know who have BP firearms either have such a store through other business applications or only use them abroad.

blackpowder

thanx for that sounds crazy dosent it lol ? but we live in hope that the new legilslation doesnt take for ever

Sikamick

The question I will ask here is if one purchased a reproduction flint lock smooth bore why could it not be charged from a black powder shotgun cartridge as is used by many people who own shotguns with Damascus barrels.

Sikamick

tac foley

Sikamick wrote: »

The question I will ask here is if one purchased a reproduction flint lock smooth bore why could it not be charged from a black powder cartridge as is used by many people who own shotguns with Damascus barrels. Sikamick

Mick - I assume that you are talking about actually dismantling a live BP shotgun cartridge to do this?

Hmmmmmmm.

In any case, you'll be needing two different grades of BP for a flintlock firearm. One for the main charge - usually FFg - and another for the priming - usually FFFg.

Plus wads - and they are classed, AFAIK, as reloading components that you might not be able to get in the RoI under current legislation. I guess that you could always make them out of heavy felt, cutting them out with a wad punch.... powder - wad - shot - wad...........

I confess the knowing little or nothing about BP shotgun shells, but Mr rrpc seems to know most of the answers to this extremely grey and fuzzy area of the shooting sport, so I'm going to wait to read what he has to say.

tac

Sikamick

Tac in the 70's I purchased a reproduction smooth bore percussion muzzle loader, it was licensed as a single barrel shot gun. One could purchase black powder saluting blank cartridges and caps from the gun shop (Watts).

Note 12g, could be licensed as shotgun.

I might add I don't have it now, but with hindsight I should have kept it.



http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Musket/Antonio-Zoli-and-Co-gun-for-sale-gs6790.aspx


Quote[Tac] Mick - I assume that you are talking about actually dismantling a live BP shotgun cartridge to do this?

Tac one wouldn't have to do the likes of this, if the law was fair and equal, not just for the chosen few.


Sikamick

Sikamick

Tac I'm not trying to tell my grannie how to suck egg's, but see link same powder is used or am I reading it wrong.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Flintlock-Musket-Loading-and-Firing---12-Easy-Steps&id=1995724

Contents of the black powder blank cartridge was advised for use by the Gun Smith and there never was a problem with it.

Sikamick

rrpc

I've heard of people using such methods, but never met any

I'd imagine it's quite an expensive way of doing tha job. And as tac has said you need a different grade for the pan.

The one I saw used a percussion cap.

blackpowder

thanx guys for the info and links lol i,m glad i got the debate rolling again lol :)over the years on the furums i have seen people from oher e.u member states ect wanting to bring their guns in to ireland and powder i dont know does the european safety pass cover this for people lviing outside the state?
its just a pity do even on historical note the irish have being evrywhere to waterloo to the battlefield of gettysburg and our own department feel we are an unsafe bunch with half a pound of bp,i understad the health and safety asspect but there is so much red tape even weirder i bought a 1859 percussion musket from michael d long in england through the internet and although being a 50 cal percussion rifle firing a minnie slug in its day i would have to get a license say for a 1600 piece that i intented to fire . the later percussion rife being anitiue being no bother lol
hey do any of u guys own a 22 . cal henry repeater i bought one in barton smiths in sligo 2 years ago lovely little rifle hat do u think of the rifle ???? was thinking about investing in a lee enfield a few years aago but ammo to expensive

Grizzly 45

blackpowder wrote: »

thanx for that sounds crazy dosent it lol ? but we live in hope that the new legilslation doesnt take for ever

Well considering it was last updated in1875..
Glacial and wind erosion of Mt Everest will be probably quicker,before our Dail denizens and civil servants get around to doing this.:(

Croppy Boy

Hey BP, have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THS7HL-qZkE

Scroll down through the clips, you'll find a lot of information about loading and firing both rifles and smoothbores.

tac foley

Sikamick wrote: »

Tac I'm not trying to tell my grannie how to suck egg's, but see link same powder is used or am I reading it wrong.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Flintlock-Musket-Loading-and-Firing---12-Easy-Steps&id=1995724

Contents of the black powder blank cartridge was advised for use by the Gun Smith and there never was a problem with it.

Sikamick

Ah, OK so.

tac

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well considering it was last updated in1875..
Glacial and wind erosion of Mt Everest will be proably quicker,before our Dail denizens and civil servants get around to doing this.:(

The 1875 act has been updated and added to a good few times since 1875:

Explosive Substances Act 1883
Explosives Act 1923
Dangerous Substances Act 1972
Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road Act 1998
Criminal Justice Act 2006

Not to mention numerous pieces of secondary and EU legislation dating from 1923 to 2010: over thirty in all.

Putting that all together into a new act is no small task. It's even more complex than the firearms acts.

Sparks

This really should be required reading for anyone asking why the legislation can't be fixed in five minutes:

Have you ever legalized Marijuana?

Seriously. Take four minutes out of your day and read it.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

This really should be required reading for anyone asking why the legislation can't be fixed in five minutes:

Have you ever legalized Marijuana?

Seriously. Take four minutes out of your day and read it.

Very good, I think I said something like this elsewhere:

Because laws are pretty much like programs. You have to specify their behavior at almost (not quite, but almost) the same level of detail, using a language that's almost as crappy as our programming languages today — English. Or whatever your native language is: it sucks too. If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer. Or try to write a technical spec in your native tongue that the programmers don't ultimately poke full of holes.

And he didn't mention the law of unforeseen consequences that bedevils legislation, nor the fact that although keeping your code neat and compact is desirable in programming, it's absolutely essential in legal drafting to avoid the inveitable misinterpretation that comes with sloppy and verbose law.

Whilst restatiing the firearms acts into one document, I was very impressed that in general, all the tack ons and amendments actually worked into the body quite well and relatively seamlessly. Many here have criticised the acts for various perceived failings in them, but on a purely technical level considering the amount of data, they work surprisingly well.

The challenge (and it's something I considered doing; but have inevitably long-fingered) is to rewrite the acts into a shorter and more concise document that will do the same thing as the current legislation plus all court decisions and statutory instruments.

Not for the faint hearted

Sparks

Especially since after all that work to render it down to one reformed document, it has to go through the Dail where random TDs make and vote on random changes in it...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Especially since after all that work to render it down to one reformed document, it has to go through the Dail where random TDs make and vote on random changes in it...

And never mind the difficulty of ascertaining the actual purpose of each section and subsection. Sometimes that gets lost in the passage of time, because we inevitably look at legislation through the window of contemporary life rather than of the time that the law was drafted.

Sparks

That all being said though, I still want to change "one joule" to "eight joules" in part (b) of the firearm definition in the Act and think it's a fairly straightforward change that'd do the sport a lot of long-term good

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

That all being said though, I still want to change "one joule" to "eight joules" in part (b) of the firearm definition in the Act and think it's a fairly straightforward change that'd do the sport a lot of long-term good

It might be apprpriate to point out here that in the UK all gas and electrically-operated airsoft replicas that shoot 6mm or 8mm plastic balls are subject to the Violent Crime Reduction Bill notes. [I have no idea who Bill was, but he seems pretty violent to me].

Basically, you must be a registered re-enactor of member of a registered and authorised airsoft group to buy such a thing. However, you can, if you are NOT such a member, buy a transparent or bright green and purple version of the same thing.

So here I am, with eighteen live-firing firearms including .308Win, 7x57 Swiss, and 7mm Mauser, as well as BP arms up to .58calibre, and nine .22's, but I'm not allowed to have a plastic toy gun that puts out 1 whole joule of M/E.

....and you think that Irish laws are a little odd?

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

....and you think that Irish laws are a little odd?

We have a criminal law prohibiting blasphemy that doesn't date from the 1800s, so I think we win there

Grizzly 45

Good article,as were the comments on it as well.
However while the spirt of the article is true in both pot legalisation and reloading in Ireland.,as one poster pointed out there is already plenty of legislaion in place dealing with sale distrubution of legal drugs and alcohol,and the who what and where of its use.We have plenty of legislation dealing with the use of firearms and ammo and its possesion so it isnt as if we are starting with a fresh unknown substance. He fell down in his arguement[with me] about the Dutch "and well ask them it's only legal in Amsterdam,but I've never been there and it is proably very vauge etc." If he had gone there he would find that it is laid down precisely how much you can have,where,and in what quantities,and even how many plants you can grow personally[four per household if I remember] before it is considerd a commerical growth,and it is legal all over the Netherlands last time I was there in March of this year..IOW while sht is nt easy,it isnt as if we havent been there before,and it is not an excuse not to try it either.
My2cents

Sparks

It isn't an excuse not to try it Grizzly; it's just an explanation of why that try won't take ten minutes of chat over a cup of tea and half an hour's typing by the secretarial pool.

Grizzly 45

Indeed not,but I get the feeling here is somtimes,"well,its fierce difficult to do in legislation,would take forever,wouldnt be much use.So best not try it in the first place."On the first part of the statement the legalising pot arguements would be rolled out in RE reloading.

thermo

blackpowder wrote: »

hi guys im new to the furums so please be gentle lol anyway i was wondering what is the legality in this country on blckpowder/pyrodex firearms ,shooting i,ve looked at the small amount of legislation there is on shooting blackpowder and it seems to be a very grey area i know for a fact shooting rerroduction guns is very popular in england and the a lot of e,u countries why is it such a problem in ireland ?
i ve spoken to gun dealers and have said to me that just not to bother going there what do you guys think?

I notice your location is listed as Sligo, I know there is a firearms dealer in co. Sligo (in the north of the county) who deals in BP firearms and so may be able to answer your questions as he deal day in day out with this type of gun.
I don't think advertising is allowed so if you pm me I can forward his contact details.

rrpc

thermo wrote: »

I notice your location is listed as Sligo, I know there is a firearms dealer in co. Sligo (in the north of the county) who deals in BP firearms and so may be able to answer your questions as he deal day in day out with this type of gun.
I don't think advertising is allowed so if you pm me I can forward his contact details.

You're allowed say 'such and such a dealer has x product in stock'. There's a thread below this where a poster is looking for .222 ammo and a number of people have responded with the names of dealers.

So name away, it'll be useful info for anyone else interested in BP firearms.

thermo

rrpc wrote: »

You're allowed say 'such and such a dealer has x product in stock'. There's a thread below this where a poster is looking for .222 ammo and a number of people have responded with the names of dealers.

So name away, it'll be useful info for anyone else interested in BP firearms.

its laurence thermes contact no 07191 76624.
he stocks ww2 guns and muskets.

SAKO_FTR

There is information on the DOJ's website re explosives
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Explosives General Guidance Notes - Explosives Legislation

It give lots of interesting reading on the subject but one thing it does do is give guidance on how to hold powder at home.

Keeping and Storage of Explosives

section (d)
Keeping of Explosives for private use and not for sale
Order in Council No 12 provides for a person to apply for a Garda Certificate (C49) that he is a fit person, to keep for private use, up to 10 lbs of an authorised explosive, for any industrial, agricultural, sporting or other special purpose, (as specified on the certificate). The certificate is valid for up to one year from date of issue.

You can apply for and hold up to 10lbs of powder (for sporting use) at home subject to conditions (which I have no idea what they would be)
I believe this is how the current re-enactors hold powder at home for there sport / hobbie.

tac foley

Does anybody here actually know a re-enactor to ask him how he does it?

tac

blackpowder

Thanx for the information guys ,it seems its not impossible to shoot blakpowder or pyrodex in the republic just that it would be a good reason needed to hold these substances on your property say if you are a reincator it would be legitimite doe anyone know were you an actuley buy pyrodex or blapowder in the republic under special license or does one also need a import lincese say to order from the uk Thanx guys

[MOD]
Converted to 'Sentence case'
[/MOD]

Grizzly 45

However, I'm sure that an Irish licensed explosives dealer would be able to obtain it on your behalf. Why not ask one? After you get the licence to hold the stuff, of course.

Just to give you all a heads up on this...I have been asking off a few people who make a living out of legally blowing things up about this point of importing BP/ propellants and storage of same for a liscensed individual in their secure storage or premises.
Sofar one hasnt returned my call,another is intrigued by this and will get back to me once they look into it.Which proably means never..But we live in hope.

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just to give you all a heads up on this...I have been asking off a few people who make a living out of legally blowing things up about this point of importing BP/ propellants and storage of same for a liscensed individual in their secure storage or premises.
Sofar one hasnt returned my call,another is intrigued by this and will get back to me once they look into it.Which proably means never..But we live in hope.

Chances are Grizzly, they dont want to put themselfs on DoJ/Gardai radar buy even asking about it :rolleyes: I work with a fireworks company from time to time. The boss stores all the stuff in NI until the day of the show, then drives it down to the gig. Puts alot of time and cost on any of the shows.

Here is one for you. Does every Uni and secondary school in the country have an explosives liscense? And what about factory labs? They all do have chemicals classed as explosives (only in this country) in there chem stores.

Grizzly 45

chem wrote: »

Chances are Grizzly, they dont want to put themselfs on DoJ/Gardai radar buy even asking about it :rolleyes: I work with a fireworks company from time to time. The boss stores all the stuff in NI until the day of the show, then drives it down to the gig. Puts alot of time and cost on any of the shows.

Thanks for that Chem.Saved me some phoning around,was going to be the next port of call.

Here is one for you. Does every Uni and secondary school in the country have an explosives liscense? And what about factory labs? They all do have chemicals classed as explosives (only in this country) in there chem stores.

Got me on that one...

SAKO_FTR

Just to give you all a heads up on this...I have been asking off a few people who make a living out of legally blowing things up about this point of importing BP/ propellants and storage of same for a liscensed individual in their secure storage or premises.
Sofar one hasnt returned my call,another is intrigued by this and will get back to me once they look into it.Which proably means never..But we live in hope.

The information on the DOJ's website - General Guidance Notes - Explosives Legislation - gives guidance on how to store class 1 explosives from a Magazine store to Local Authority store to Registered premises but I can see nothing on a small amount, 10lbs of explosives and the requirements for storage at home.
It says you can apply but it doesn't say how to store it.

In the UK you have to have a BP storage box (wooden manufacture) to the correct specification, may be that's what's required in Ireland?
I don't know that for certain but it would seem a sensible storage requirement.

thermo

thermo wrote: »

its laurence thermes contact no 07191 76624.
he stocks ww2 guns and muskets.

tac foley wrote: »

Does anybody here actually know a re-enactor to ask him how he does it?

tac

the guy mentioned above runs several re-enactor groupes nepolianic and such.

tac foley

thermo wrote: »

the guy mentioned above runs several re-enactor groupes nepolianic and such.

Thank you, Sir. :=)

So interested parties can ask HIS advice.

tac

tac foley

Dear GGH - thanks for your reply - I was just wondering how you fellas in the RoI go about it, bearing in mind the restrictions placed on you by the Explosives Acts.

Here in Uk you simply need a shotgun licence [for a smooth-bore firearm] and the requisite two BP licnes - one to buy and one to transport. Plus, of course, the Home Office-approved storage container.

Oh, and registered membership of a re-enactment group of some kind.

tac

kowloon

Was it not mentioned on this board before that Pyrodex isn't classed as an explosive here? !0lbs of BP would go a long way if it was only being used as primer.