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How to prove signature is forgery?

  • 06-09-2010 9:30pm
    #1
    boAds_user
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭


    What would be legal proof and is there a requirement to proof intent on part of the suspected forger?

    What is the legal view if this actually happened on a legal document, say for example on a mortgage loan agreement involving joint lenders where one party made changes without the other's consent or even knowledge. If it was proven to be the case, what would the legal implications be?

    (say regarding the bank's loan, the legal title of the property, and the remainder of the loan contract??

    Often hear of cases where wife (or husband) tops up mortgage or extends term - must be a forged signature needed there?)


Comments

  • #2
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    TFA 2001 Part 4 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/index.html


  • #3
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    boAds_user wrote: »
    What would be legal proof and is there a requirement to proof intent on part of the suspected forger?

    What is the legal view if this actually happened on a legal document, say for example on a mortgage loan agreement involving joint lenders where one party made changes without the other's consent or even knowledge. If it was proven to be the case, what would the legal implications be?

    (say regarding the bank's loan, the legal title of the property, and the remainder of the loan contract??

    Often hear of cases where wife (or husband) tops up mortgage or extends term - must be a forged signature needed there?)

    Seeing as you've mention mortgages and spouses just a thought sprang to mind - when I was working in retailing banking years ago they brought about an open ended consent for the other spouse to sign in relation to the mortgage on the family home - so the husband or wife could sign this consent when the mortgage is taken out and it would be valid for the life of the mortgage - a lot can change or be forgotten over a 35 year term.

    Just something else to consider in relation to your final points.


  • #4
    boAds_user
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭boAds_user


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Seeing as you've mention mortgages and spouses just a thought sprang to mind - when I was working in retailing banking years ago they brought about an open ended consent for the other spouse to sign in relation to the mortgage on the family home - so the husband or wife could sign this consent when the mortgage is taken out and it would be valid for the life of the mortgage - a lot can change or be forgotten over a 35 year term.

    Just something else to consider in relation to your final points.


    Which begs the question that I now feel that I must ask, what if the consent form was signed with a forged signature. I guess its fairly clear that I am missing the point somewhere on how these things work. Who is liable and how is this viewed in legal terms.

    OK, assume it's possible to prove in court using expert withnesses that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the signature in question is confirmed forged and was not made by the person it would appear to suggest it represents (lets call him Mr FSig)

    What if (bear with me and imagine if you can the following)

    (1) Mr FSig discovers the forgery on legal docs only after he is made aware of it by a solicitor handling his wife's probate case some 40 years after papers would have been signed. The document was a formal loan agreement for a Mortgage in joint names of himself and his wife for their residential property. This is subsequently confirmed by experts and his wife is infact suspected to have commited the act of forgery.


    Questions:

    What legal obligation's are there on Mr FSign who is now aware of this forgery? Does he have to report it and if so to whom and are there circumstances that he has legal backing to say nothing.

    a) Mr FSig tells the lending bank about the discovery. Would the bank have any grounds to claim a right to his property now worth 5 x what it was purchased for? Contract not valid?

    Or visa versa Mr FSig discovers this to his delight as the wife left him nothing but debts and the property market is in a state leaving him -400K in -ve equity. Could he walk away somehow as he could argue "not my sign so I'm not liable"


    OK, if we ignore complexities of property law here and also family law. Would that make any difference?


    Mr FSig was unaware of this happening at the time it did in the example. Would it be different if he was aware of it at the time?

    I guess I would like to understand who the buck would stop with in each case.

    (Strange I know but I do wonder about unusal things)


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