Social Welfare was self employed and have no entitlements to get welfare

gocster

I was a self employed the last 6 years and due to my business not surviving I had to unfortunately close it down in May 2010. I employed 9 people at the time it was heart breaking but had no other choice our savings had all gone into it and mostly to keep the workers on board until it dried up and had no other choice to close. Since then I’ve had all transport means taking from me and a hefty mortgage to pay on top of the other bills. I approached social welfare back in may 2010 asking for help and signed on to jobseekers. I’m been told by their investigator that under no circumstance will I be entitled to any thing as I was self employed until I get a set of accounts dating back to 2002 that’s 8 years accounts. I also had a property in Spain which was in arrears since 2006 and has been taking back by the bank over there. This was bought on the strength of a 100% mortgage before I even started up my business and wants all contracts application forms etc for it. This can only be got at a cost of €3000 through an Irish solicitor. so story here is I ask for jobseekers benefits because I’m genuinely penny less back living at home I’m not entitled to anything because I ran my own business and had a property in Spain. No money left in bank. Paid thousands upon thousands to the government for taxes and PAYE and had it fully cleared before I closed. Then a jumped up ass hole behind a desk in social welfare tells me I can’t get anything. I've made visits on several requests pleading for help and nothing. He said he will keep the investigation running as long as he likes and wishes to. I seemingly have to do this to get back getting a stamp again as he explained. I had nothing to hide and should him all. Some times I think the less English you can speak and the less you give some like this you have a 10 times better chance of getting something. I really think the system is a disgrace in Ireland after paying all my workers taxes etc, I’m not allowed anything if I had money I would never waste my time in their offices. I would work any hours in any place to get out of this situation but with no transport living in the middle of the country its quiet hard get on my feet but I have more determination to do so the more I deal with these social welfare crowd and next time out they will be watching because I’ll never be as straight again with my earning etc. No wonder the country is corrupt and so many hold on to cash and dont tell half of what goes on. I think there a total joke and they like to pretend there important. Did anyone have similar experiences and how did they fair out for you? Thanks

Nolanger

Self employed do get entitlements except most recently unemployed don't qualify (adoptive, guardians, pension). Self-employed usually pay less tax than other workers and they're supposed to set aside some of their earnings to support themselves when they're out of work. You may be entitled to Jobseekers Allowance but they have to decide if you have any means. They can't just tell you that you'll get nothing. They must send you a letter stating you have means in excess and are not entitled to claim. Then you can appeal this. They more documents you have to support this appeal the better.

marlie2005

Hi Op,

As the above poster has said you should be entitled to something, you would have to be means tested but while our claim is going through you should call to the community welfare officer in your area and explain your suitation..

kerrylad1

i agree with you mate,if ur honest you end up just hurting yourself in the long run,close friend of mine had a small business that he declared when he easily could have just kept tipping away without declaring he was self employed.his work dried up 18 months ago and he has lost everything.the welfare wouldnt give him a single euro untill after months of getting nowhere he got a politician on board and he ended up sorting things out for him but he,s now back living with his parents at the age of 44.luckily he still has years of expertise in his line of work an he,s off to canada early november to start a new life.lucky for him he,s single,i shudder to think what is happening to cases like this when there,s wife an kids involved.the systems a complete joke.best of luck to you and hope things improve for you.get onto your local politician and they will sort something out with them for you.

axel rose

Er is your problem with

• providing details of your business and assets to the dept of sw (personally it makes sense to me)
• the fact that foreign people are entitled to claim sw in this country. (have no problem with this myself)
• the fact that you were an EMPLOYER who is now finding himself with the hoi polloi down in the sw.
  
  Maybe it just paragraphs you have a problem with.

Hint -you never paid your employees taxes-they paid their own.


Referring to someone doing their job as an asshole convinces me that you have a chip on your shoulder and think you should be taken at your word. Provide the dept with what they request and let them assess your means.

dudara

gocster It would really help other posters understand what the issue was if you broke the post up into paragraphs.

To be honest, I couldn't read it due to it being in a single big block.

dudara

danbohan

axel rose wrote: »

Er is your problem with

• providing details of your business and assets to the dept of sw (personally it makes sense to me)
• the fact that foreign people are entitled to claim sw in this country. (have no problem with this myself)
• the fact that you were an EMPLOYER who is now finding himself with the hoi polloi down in the sw.
  
  Maybe it just paragraphs you have a problem with.

Hint -you never paid your employees taxes-they paid their own.


Referring to someone doing their job as an asshole convinces me that you have a chip on your shoulder and think you should be taken at your word. Provide the dept with what they request and let them assess your means.

i take it that you are a public servant and totally removed from the real world such as the orignal op finds himself

where do you suggest he finds the 3 grand + to pay the fees he mentioned i am sure if he had that sort money he would do what most self employed who have lost their jobs in this country are doing and emigrate

if he did not provide jobs his employess would not be paying taxes
most people in this country still rely on people like him providing them with jobs only the lucky 500k or so are public servants and are answerable to nobody !
as for the hoi polloi down in sw where did he say he had problem with that ?

axel rose

No dan, I'm a widow with a baby who had to take a career break from the public service as I cant work my hours and take care of my son. (BTW career breaks are unpaid) (Its civil servants that work in the sw)

Its unfortunate that the OP is in this situation but does he really think that ranting about foreigners is going to garner sympathy? Its a pity that it will cost 3k to get the information to regarding his property in Spain but the sw need to see the proof of what he is saying. Everyone applying for SW has to show proof of what they say-why sould the op be the exception?


Calling the investigor an Asshole indicated to me that he feels should not be questioned and taken at his word. What has the civil servant in question done to be called an asshole- As far as I see, it was to ask for his accounts and proof that he is losing his property.

As for the employees and THEIR taxes-I reckon that he hired them to increase his profits and not for the good of his health!


Should he not be expected to proof what he is claiming to the SW? What do foreigners claiming SW got to do with anything?

smokie2008

axel rose wrote: »

Calling the investigor an Asshole indicated to me that he feels should not be questioned and taken at his word.

As far as I see it the Guy is calling the "investigor" an asshole cause he is completely and utterly frustrated and desperate, (and on top of that he probably is an asshole). It might seem he's hating on foreigners but the guy has a point, look at what he's done for society and then people from Nigeria/china/Poland etc just walk in fill in a few form and get our taxes way before a guy who's contributed that so much to the government.

axel rose

smokie2008 wrote: »

As far as I see it the Guy is calling the "investigor" an asshole cause he is completely and utterly frustrated and desperate, (and on top of that he probably is an asshole). It might seem he's hating on foreigners but the guy has a point, look at what he's done for society and then people from Nigeria/china/Poland etc just walk in fill in a few form and get our taxes way before a guy who's contributed that so much to the government.

Yea, I have never seen a foreign person work in this country, they certainly don't own any business here! :rolleyes:

He's frustrated because he is stamping his little feet demanding money and unwilling to see that he needs to provide evidence of his situation. That 'asshole' was doing his job and ensuring that the welfare goes to those who are in need-as opposed to those that say they are in need.

(BTW loved how you pointed out my typo- it was genius-really!!!!)

kerrylad1

smokie2008 wrote: »

As far as I see it the Guy is calling the "investigor" an asshole cause he is completely and utterly frustrated and desperate, (and on top of that he probably is an asshole). It might seem he's hating on foreigners but the guy has a point, look at what he's done for society and then people from Nigeria/china/Poland etc just walk in fill in a few form and get our taxes way before a guy who's contributed that so much to the government.

a few years back id have totally disagreed with your views but now i agree with your points seeing what has happened to my mate, as i posted earlier above,he lost everything as a result of being honest to the system resulting in him having to head to canada as a way to live.like the first writer of this tread,he did everything above board only to get smacked in the face bye the policies of this joke of a government

paddydriver

axel rose wrote: »

Er is your problem with

Hint -you never paid your employees taxes-they paid their own.

The employer also has to pay PRSI for employee's - this is on top of the employee's contributions and the employee's PAYE.

I am self employed too and hope I never have to go cap in hand to social as I know because I am on band S I will not be entitled to anything.

There are many tax benefits to being self employed and one of the main ones is the amount that you can put, tax free, into a pension but unfortunately this ain't use till 65.

axel rose

Listen, I'm in no way defending the system-far from it in fact. However the OP has been asked by the social welfare to provide his accounts for the past so many years and show proof that he is losing his property in Spain.

Its not the fault of the SW that the Spanish banks will charge him 3k for this information. I don't understand why he wouldn't have his previous business accounts.

How can he expect payment from the dept if he isn't backing up what he is claiming? (The ignorant racism and the fact that he felt he paid his employees taxes just annoyed me )

axel rose

paddydriver wrote: »

The employer also has to pay PRSI for employee's - this is on top of the employee's contributions and the employee's PAYE.

I am self employed too and hope I never have to go cap in hand to social as I know because I am on band S I will not be entitled to anything.

There are many tax benefits to being self employed and one of the main ones is the amount that you can put, tax free, into a pension but unfortunately this ain't use till 65.

Paddy, the OP claimed that he paid 'all' his employees taxes.

Nolanger

I call this the 'Burger King effect'! When you go in there and order a Whopper meal they serve you efficiently and quickly. When you go in there and order something like potato wedges you have to wait ages even though it should be quicker. They are set up to do some things well and when someone comes in looking for something different they have to go off and do this and it takes longer. That's what the dole office is like. They are all about helping the general unemployed or non-nationals sent from the Health Board but when they have to deal with someone they aren't used to (self-employed people) they take ages to process!

danbohan

Nolanger wrote: »

I call this the 'Burger King effect'! When you go in there and order a Whopper meal they serve you efficiently and quickly. When you go in there and order something like potato wedges you have to wait ages even though it should be quicker. They are set up to do some things well and when someone comes in looking for something different they have to go off and do this and it takes longer. That's what the dole office is like. They are all about helping the general unemployed or non-nationals sent from the Health Board but when they have to deal with someone they aren't used to (self-employed people) they take ages to process!

i think that is only partially true , the real situation is that many in public service and it seems especally in sw have a grudge agains self employed and will do everything to frustrate their applications .

axel rose

lol, any theory as to why?

mrsbouquet

The reason it takes so long to assess self employed people is because a lot of the inspectors have little or no training on reading and understanding company accounts.Up to a year ago there were little or no self employed buiness people signing on. Nowadays some of these people have companies that own a lot of property so these have to be valued and they have to produce evidence of mortgage on same.

Some of these are due to be taken over by nama and once again social welfare has
not issued any guidelines on how to deal with this or given their inspectors training on how to deal with this.

phormium

I have experience with previously self employed people who now have financial difficulties and I find a huge difficulty for them is getting up to date accounts as more often than not they owe their accountants money and cant pay, therefore accountants wont do the accounts and who can blame them but it is a catch 22 situation. They run into the same difficulties with revenue if there is any tax owing, court cases pending over unpaid taxes and unable to provide accounts.

Darlughda

A quick question to the op.

How come you don't have all the ready accounts and bank business already up to date and in your possession?

Any place I have worked in the self employed employer has always kept meticulous records to the point of having duplicates of everything in carefully yearly dated folders.

danbohan

axel rose wrote: »

lol, any theory as to why?

no idea , perhaps you could explain it !

axel rose

Well Dan, Perhaps PUBLIC servants don't like self employed people because many of them mistake them for CIVIL servants :P.

OK it's a smart arsed joke but for the record civil servants work directly for the government -SW, council, revenue etc-and public servants work for government agencies HSE, Garda etc.

Dan you alleged that SW have a grudge against self employed, I'm asking you why they would. Anyway you never answered my original question- Why do you think the OP should not have to provide evidence of his situation? (as anyone else applying for SW would).

danbohan

axel rose wrote: »

Well Dan, Perhaps PUBLIC servants don't like self employed people because many of them mistake them for CIVIL servants :P.

OK it's a smart arsed joke but for the record civil servants work directly for the government -SW, council, revenue etc-and public servants work for government agencies HSE, Garda etc.

Dan you alleged that SW have a grudge against self employed, I'm asking you why they would. Anyway you never answered my original question- Why do you think the OP should not have to provide evidence of his situation? (as anyone else applying for SW would).

unfortunatley you cant emphise with the postion of the orignal op because you like all public/civil servants in this country are far removed from the situation he finds himself in ,perhaps if the imf come in here the public service/civil service might find that they are not as pampered as they are by our current and past goverments and they will understand better the unenviable situation hes in , i am sure he is more than willing to provide the documents needed , they however cost money to obtain , accountants fees , lawyers fees etc , he does not have said money if he did he would not need to apply for benifit in first place . perhaps he should just starve to death then we could get more public / civil servants to do a report and keep a few more of the 60000 + public servant/civil servants we dont need occupied .

axel rose

Oh I didnt realise that we were still p1ssing on the civil and public service :rolleyes:.

Ok Ill spell it out to you one more time dan- this time i'll use capitals. I AM NOT A CIVIL OR A PUBLIC SERVANT. I AM NOT WORKING AS I AM ON A CAREER BREAK. THIS BREAK IS UNPAID DAN.

When I had my son I had to provide proof of his birth, when I had to apply for a widows pension I had to fill out endless paperwork to prove my marriage and my husbands death.

When people find themselves in need of UA and UB they also need to prove their status and eligibility. The OP has failed to do this- what do you expect the SW to do? Accept him at his word seeing as he is Irish? (Is that what the OP meant I wonder?)


What do you suggest the SW do with the OP? Seriously! The guidelines requiring proof make sense to me.

Are you going to answer any question or just moan about not being a civil or public servant (now that you know the difference)

jessiejam

danbohan wrote: »

unfortunatley you cant emphise with the postion of the orignal op because you like all public/civil servants in this country are far removed from the situation he finds himself in ,perhaps if the imf come in here the public service/civil service might find that they are not as pampered as they are by our current and past goverments and they will understand better the unenviable situation hes in , i am sure he is more than willing to provide the documents needed , they however cost money to obtain , accountants fees , lawyers fees etc , he does not have said money if he did he would not need to apply for benifit in first place . perhaps he should just starve to death then we could get more public / civil servants to do a report and keep a few more of the 60000 + public servant/civil servants we dont need occupied .

Any excuse for PS bashing, get over it. Its old news at this stage.
Do you think that those in the public sector haven't been affected by this at all. Do you think that all of their partners/spouses are PS workers too?
Loads of people I know in the PS/CS partners' have been laid off, or for those who were self employed, lost their business. These people are grateful they have a job. These people made the decision to join the public service/Civil Service back in the day others laughed at the sh!t wages being offered. There were a lot higher paying jobs out there at the time.

As for the OP I do empathise with you, its not easy going from SE to signing on. All it seems to be is red tape. The fact that you were probably earning big money (I will assume, due to the fact you were able to buy property abroad) to getting nothing is very hard. Maybe if you went to your community welfare officer and explained all of this to them, they might be able to give you something to tide you over until a decision is made on your claim.

BTW the SW have very strict guidlines in dealing with claimants, and you are no doubt being treated the same as everyone else who is misfortunate enough to have to sign on. This guy behind the desk is afterall just doing his job. If you have a problem with his attitude, then you really should report this matter to his superiors, who will take the matter seriously.

bbam

axel rose wrote: »

When people find themselves in need of UA and UB they also need to prove their status and eligibility. The OP has failed to do this- what do you expect the SW to do? Accept him at his word seeing as he is Irish? (Is that what the OP meant I wonder?)

What do you suggest the SW do with the OP? Seriously! The guidelines requiring proof make sense to me.

I must agree...
Proof needs to be provided, we can't expect to weed out the fraudsters if money is just handed out when asked for...

I also agree that we need to be greatful for the risks that small business employers take when setting up and taking on staff, as pointed out, they usually do this to further their own profits... There are also the plethera of means they use to minimise their tax laibilities..

danbohan

axel rose wrote: »

Oh I didnt realise that we were still p1ssing on the civil and public service :rolleyes:.

Ok Ill spell it out to you one more time dan- this time i'll use capitals. I AM NOT A CIVIL OR A PUBLIC SERVANT. I AM NOT WORKING AS I AM ON A CAREER BREAK. THIS BREAK IS UNPAID DAN.

When I had my son I had to provide proof of his birth, when I had to apply for a widows pension I had to fill out endless paperwork to prove my marriage and my husbands death.

When people find themselves in need of UA and UB they also need to prove their status and eligibility. The OP has failed to do this- what do you expect the SW to do? Accept him at his word seeing as he is Irish? (Is that what the OP meant I wonder?)


What do you suggest the SW do with the OP? Seriously! The guidelines requiring proof make sense to me.

Are you going to answer any question or just moan about not being a civil or public servant (now that you know the difference)

i am not disputing proof is needed , what happens if hes so broke he cant pay to provide the proof he needs , what then ? , most self employed i know that have gone bust or closed down have no choice but to emigrate as they cannot survive here unless their wife /partner is working . of course thats in goverments intrests as it keeps live register figures just a little bit lower ?, short term thinking of course because thease people have provided employment in the past and will again .

am not moaning about not been a public servant , i am moaning about a country that does not treat all its citzens equally

Builderfromhell

The simplified version of how I see it is thus;

1. Self employed business people take risks, use their own money and banks money, their drive, energy and time to make business work. Research has shown entrepneurs are driven by a passion to succeed with their idea more than a desire to be rich.
The wealth comes as a result of success. If the business fails, in this country often not the businesspersons fault, they loose virtually everything.
For years others will have benefited by supplying goods and services to the business, bank making interest, revenue gets a whole range of taxes, employees make a living.
Almost overnight the bank, suppliers, revenue ringing them and sending threatening letters. At a time when they are most vulnerable they get harassed. Some have nervous breakdowns, others have a worse fate.
SW is not automatically forthcoming which understandably leads to anger. The anger may be towards the system in general but directed at the s/w worker.

The system has for years rewarded laziness (SW) but punished workers (tax).

2. On the other hand the SW worker goes to work everyday and meets a never ending queque of people, all with their own stories to tell.
I have friends who work in SW and they have told me stories of grown men crying at the counter as they can't get money for a whole range of reasons.
A senior SW officer told me that their staff often work longer than normal hours, unpaid, in an attempt to help more people. These sw people are stressed out and depressed.
So, when a business person arrives with his/her tale of woe the s/w worker may have compassion fatigue and not be able to deal with it. Rules is rules and what can he do.

It's the system which is seriously unjust to all involved, including the freeloaders who get evrything from s/w. They end up messed up rom never having to take responsibilty.

axel rose

builderfromhell, you pretty much nailed it.

shadowgirl

we are in the same boat as yourself, my hubby was in a car accident in may of 2010, he had no choice but to give up working, as he was in agony and is now waiting on an op in Jan 2012

he too was self employed.

and since my husband has stopped working, we haven't received a cent from sw.
our families are basically keeping us above water.

we went to cwo to be told we were not entitled to anything, even though both of us have worked all our life.

the worse part of all this was seeing people in our area getting money hand over fist from the cwo,
people who wouldn't work in a million years

and yet they are entitled to something and we who have worked since we were teenagers are not entitled to anything.

hard to believe, but its the reality of being self employed

mp22

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