Who is worse Blair or Bertie?

efb

Following on from the LLS Discussion I'm wondering who the great unwashed ( deodorant doesn't count) of AH think is a worse person Blair, who some would see as a war criminal or Bertie, who some view as a corroupt politician.

I would say Blair as his false premise for a war on Iraq caused far greater damage than Bertie's 'arry Redknapp' style dealing with the Irish public.

What say you AH?

mink_man

they were both great I think.

efb

But who was less great iyo minkman?

RMD

Bertie was a corrupt gob****e, but he did accomplish some great things in his time.

Never really followed Blair so I can't comment.

galwayrush

No contest, Blair anyday over Bertie.
Not saying anything positive about Blair there ewither...:pac:

gurramok

Ahern enslaved a nation to a generation(Irish) of debt and Blair enslaved a nation(British) to a generation of war, who do ya pick?

galwayrush

RMD wrote: »

Bertie was a corrupt gob****e, but he did accomplish some great things in his time.

Never really followed Blair so I can't comment.

Yeah, great things for himself.
Like making the position of Taoiseach one of the highest paid in the world, he alse did great things for his friends as regards rewarding them positions with massive salaries and pension plans .

_feedback_

Are you going to bring the results of your survey back to win an argument with Peist2007 in the TV forum?

Give it a rest

WindSock

I'd say Blair would be a more generous lover. Bertie more of a packet of crisps then a roide sort.

efb

No it was an open question. That worm has turned

mrsdewinter

God... Bertie must have spent years dreaming of the day he'd be mentioned in the same breath as Blair.

argonaut

Blair did a lot of good, apart from the Iraq mistake - Northern Ireland, anyone?

Bertie deserves some credit for Northern Ireland, too, actually, but everything else about his time in office was an embarassing disaster.

galwayrush

mrsdewinter wrote: »

God... Bertie must have spent years dreaming of the day he'd be mentioned in the same breath as Blair.

Imagine the rumours if Hague was PM instead of Blair, Bertie being an expert at arse licking?:pac::pac:

Donkey Oaty

It all depends on the criteria. I rate leaders on whether or not they are prepared to wear yellow trousers at political summits and so far Blair has been disappointing.

squod

Bertie has had more girlfriends. Blair had less cream buns. They're both great at making stuff up.

efb

I think Hague preferred them younger, at least that seemed to be the convention...

Terry

Blair supported an illegal war which saw hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians die.
Bertie didn't have a bank account.

I'm going to have to say that Bertie was worse because half a million Irish people are on the dole and have to live on €200 a week.

RATM

argonaut wrote: »

Blair did a lot of good, apart from the Iraq mistake - Northern Ireland, anyone?

.

That Iraq thing was one big fookin mistake, 106,000 civilians are now dead according to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ To put that in perspective, its 35 times more people than died in 9/11 and 35 times more that died in the whole 30 years of the Northern Ireland troubles.

A mate said to me tonight he's thinking of going down to Blair's book signing in Easons tomorrow morning and throwing a water balloon filled with blood at him! Said it should get him front page coverage on every major global newspaper and tv channel. He was drunk when he said this so I bet him a fiver he wouldn't do it. Easy money.

Grimreaper666

There's no doubt Blair has a lot of blood on his hands but Ahern has to be directly responsible for a lot of suicides as a result of his responsibilities or lack of.

galwayrush

RATM wrote: »

That Iraq thing was one big fookin mistake, 106,000 civilians are now dead according to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ To put that in perspective, its 35 times more people than died in 9/11 and 35 times more that died in the whole 30 years of the Northern Ireland troubles.

.

I could have sworn it was in the region of 1.2 million... source-A.H.:rolleyes:

Grimreaper666

RATM wrote: »

That Iraq thing was one big fookin mistake, 106,000 civilians are now dead according to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ To put that in perspective, its 35 times more people than died in 9/11 and 35 times more that died in the whole 30 years of the Northern Ireland troubles.

A mate said to me tonight he's thinking of going down to Blair's book signing in Easons tomorrow morning and throwing a water balloon filled with blood at him! Said it should get him front page coverage on every major global newspaper and tv channel. He was drunk when he said this so I bet him a fiver he wouldn't do it. Easy money.

There'll be a que before him, by the looks of things it's going to get a bit heated there in the morning and quite rightly so, Blair should be in jail not signing bloody books, the man is a war criminal!

galwayrush

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

There'll be a que before him, by the looks of things it's going to get a bit heated there in the morning and quite rightly so, Blair should be in jail not signing bloody books, the man is a war criminal!

I looked up all the court records i could find from the war tribunals from The Hague, couldn't find Blairs name listed as convicted, or even charged.

jd007

mink_man wrote: »

they were both great I think.

A great bunch of lads! :pac:

Grimreaper666

sorry wrong thread!!!

Donkey Oaty

galwayrush wrote: »

I looked up all the court records i could find from the war tribunals from The Hague, couldn't find Blairs name listed as convicted, or even charged.

That's true, but it does not stifle the debate. There have been at least two attempts to arrest him.

http://www.arrestblair.org/war-crimes-reports

ejmaztec

It will take the UK a hell of a lot less time to recover from Blair, than it will for Ireland to recover from Bertie.

dooloo

Both have their good points and faults obviously.

Northern Ireland and buoyant economies are the good points for both.

They can both rightly take credit for NI but not the buoyant economies. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time and the govts before them were starting this no matter how much they hate to admit it.

As regards Tony, I wouldnt give him total blame over Iraq. he did have bad intelligence advice and was relying on G W Bush. Although contrary to what he said tonight, he did have a third choice. he could have waited and not attacked at that time. What was the rush? UN had not finished their investigations and had not authorised their attack. It was a bad regime but yet so is Iran. Doesnt mean you go in and take it out. All in all however, I believe Bush would have gone ahead with or without Blair.

As regards Bertie, what exactly has he done apart from NI? These new roads have been built as a result of CGT and Stamp Duty receipts from the last number of years that were essentially once-off receipts that were not going to continue in to the future. In addition, he got rid of Charlie McCreevy to Europe when he was trying to instil cuts in govt depts. He increased tax credits hugely so that a large number of people pay no tax and we pay the highest dole and old age pension rates in the EU. Agreed on benchmarking which took no account of job security and pension entitlements so that our public service is also the highest paid in Europe. And finally governed over a Central Bank and Financial Regulator which let the banks run riot. It wasnt the bank's fault. As far as I'm concerned it was the regulatory authorities.

Tony took a punt on the war on Iraq and largely lost but also has made gains which many fail to acknowledge.

Bertie gambled with all our money and lost.

Very simple. Bertie is worst by a country mile . . . .

Ben Hadad

Bertieists! Fúck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Bertieism, dude, at least Blairism was an ethos.

Glenster

whats worse, marmite or the armour on a pre 1943 Panzer III?

gerryR

mink_man wrote: »

they were both great I think.

+1

Jeboa Safari

Hard to know, they both have their good and bad points. If people in 100 years are looking back, I don't think either will be regarded as bad, probably be characterized by the north.

nyarlothothep

If Bertie was in Blairs position I doubt he would have done anything different but he is defined by his actions, ergo Blair is the greater of two evils.

Blazer

RATM wrote: »

That Iraq thing was one big fookin mistake, 106,000 civilians are now dead according to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ To put that in perspective, its 35 times more people than died in 9/11 and 35 times more that died in the whole 30 years of the Northern Ireland troubles.

A mate said to me tonight he's thinking of going down to Blair's book signing in Easons tomorrow morning and throwing a water balloon filled with blood at him! Said it should get him front page coverage on every major global newspaper and tv channel. He was drunk when he said this so I bet him a fiver he wouldn't do it. Easy money.

Ordinary people die during wars...it's a fact of life.
While Saddam was on power he was personally responsible for killing nearly a million of his own people among them the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds.
This doesn't include the Iran-Iraq war which amounts to between another 500,000 -1,000,000 of Iraqi citizens.
During this time he was helped by Egypt, France, Russia and China who all sold him tanks and artillery etc.

Suddenly that 100,000 or so between 2003-2010 doesn't seem so far.
Yes it's deplorable that so many lost and still are losing their lives in Iraqi but under Saddam it would have been 10 times worse.
Blair misled people on WMDs but I'm glad that a monster like Saddam is no longer in this world.

As for the queston...Bertie's the worse in my mind...He's screwed this country over for the next decade or two and every time I see his stupid gimpy smile in the papers I want to sock him one.
As far as I'm concerned Bertie/Cowen and the rest of the FF scum are all traitors to this country.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation].

Bertie and co are definitely guilty of the last part in my eyes.

Peist2007

elviscostello wrote: »

Are you going to bring the results of your survey back to win an argument with Peist2007 in the TV forum?

Give it a rest

Ha ha only seeing this thread now. Completely pathetic. Plus, doesnt look like your premise is getting much support. You're starting to patronise yourself. The irony

efb

As I said earlier, no just an open question to AH, did you miss my response?

starlit

Both are great really but Bertie was worse than Blair when it came to money.

brianthebard

They're both bollocks, but Blair's decisions led to the death of far more people than Bertie.

galwayrush wrote: »

I looked up all the court records i could find from the war tribunals from The Hague, couldn't find Blairs name listed as convicted, or even charged.

I don't believe Pol Pot was convicted either, what's your point?

Fittle

See I wonder at the 'mentality' of those people who 'demonstrated' against tony blair today.

Did they wake up this morning and think 'I'm gonna go to o connell st and shout Blair Blair Blair, Out Out Out' and it will have WHAT impact exactly??????????????

I also wonder about those people who throw eggs at politicians.

Do they go to tesco to buy their eggs thinking 'Im gonna throw these eggs at X..' or do they pick up the eggs, nonchallantly at their local convenience store...

The mind boggles...:rolleyes:

I've enough going on in my own life without bothering to head to o connell street and chant a few words...but perhaps thats just me...

HxGH

Blairs worse. For sure.

mike65

Which would you trust more with your money? Thats the only criteria that most people care about. Wars thousands of miles away don't impinge much on the masses.

efb

So is Bertie worse than Hitler? He was fiscally sound and he had a great infrastructure programme

mike65

I said wars thousands of miles away, WW2 happened much clos- oh wait. Ireland sat it out.

So yep Bertie is worse than Hitler*














* ps you just lost the arugument by invoking Godwins Law.

Nodin

Sc@recrow wrote: »

Ordinary people die during wars...it's a fact of life.
While Saddam was on power he was personally responsible for killing nearly a million of his own people among them the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds.
This doesn't include the Iran-Iraq war which amounts to between another 500,000 -1,000,000 of Iraqi citizens.
During this time he was helped by Egypt, France, Russia and China who all sold him tanks and artillery etc.

.

...with approval by the US (Egypt in particular) and money from same channelled through a bank in Italy. They also provided satellite intel and communications intercepts.

Liam Byrne

efb wrote: »

I would say Blair as his false premise for a war on Iraq caused far greater damage than Bertie's 'arry Redknapp' style dealing with the Irish public.

What say you AH?

I say to stop slandering Harry Redknapp.

Aidric

Blair wore nicer coats.

Aidric

Aidric wrote: »

Blair wore nicer coats.

and he'll soon have a shoe collection to rival Imelda Marcos. :pac:

snuggles285

snuggles285 wrote: »

Both are great really but Bertie was worse than Blair when it came to money.

Can't argue with that,but one thing I find strange is why did leaders in several countries around the globe all come up with similar (ruinous) economic policies!

Peist2007

efb wrote: »

So is Bertie worse than Hitler? He was fiscally sound and he had a great infrastructure programme

What are you asking? I told you (in an identical argument which i think i won hands down) last night that Blair at least had a reason for his actions. He was presented with a question which he had to answer. A problem not of his own making.
His answer (which i disagree with on the planning and reasons behind same) was to go to war. It was based on bad intelligence (i believe he may be using the extent of the intelligence as a cover for his bad decision but how do we know or will how will we ever know). But it was a massive wide ranging world-effecting problem.
What did Bertie do? He screwed us. And then cried on TV. And actually won people over. Not you though efb. You're a FF idiot without a lateral thinking thought in your head. You've annoyed me now with this thread. You got no support last night. Why come into a light-hearted forum like AH looking for support when you got zero on the LateLate one last night.
IDIOT