The ST v HDR thread

Sisko

Just out of interest, and since every other fighting game community has had such a discussion, its time we had our own.


Not a flame thread mind, this is just to have people express their opinions and to get a view on how our community as a whole views this subject.



My view:

I'm only a casual SF2 player, someone who played SF2 as a kid like most people here. But I only got into SF properly with 3s and online emulators, when I tried to play ST online the skill gap was HUGE and I just liked 3s more. So basically I'm only an ultra casual SF2 player with huge respect for the series.

To me, HDR was just shiny newest version of the classic game and I assumed all the SF2 heads would love it, but was surprised to find it split the scene.

If asked what do I prefer? I'd probably say HDR just cause its the newest and a nice homage to SF2. But I've no issues playing ST either.

Again I'm only a very casual SF2 player, its more the proper sf2 players opinions I'm interested in here, just getting the ball rolling.

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

I prefer ST just because I don't like HDR. Even on HDR on classic is annoying to me, it just doesn't feel the same. And the GFX suck

Graphics means nothing in a game but when playing on new GFX it throws me off, it really does. Changing to old GFX still looks weird to me

Dreddybajs

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

I don't mind playing either, though some of the balance changes in HDR annoy me (Ryu fake fireball is the worst offender for me, as well as the SPD command change - imo tick throws are powerful enough in ST that being able to do tick 360s/720s without the risk of messing up and jumping is kinda crazy).

Have no problem with the other command changes (except for weird stuff like Guile being unable to combo into super using the new, easier motion - for some reason he can only combo it using the original motion, but this is just a bug), nor with the bigger reversal window.

On the graphics front, I think the game is ugly as hell either way, so it doesn't bother me.

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I don't mind playing either, though some of the balance changes in HDR annoy me (Ryu fake fireball is the worst offender for me, as well as the SPD command change - imo tick throws are powerful enough in ST that being able to do tick 360s/720s without the risk of messing up and jumping is kinda crazy).

Have no problem with the other command changes (except for weird stuff like Guile being unable to combo into super using the new, easier motion - for some reason he can only combo it using the original motion, but this is just a bug), nor with the bigger reversal window.

On the graphics front, I think the game is ugly as hell either way, so it doesn't bother me.

IMO being able to 360 is key to accessing the mindgame/metagame, so making it easier defeats the purpose of such. That's how it's meant to work, you're meant to practice enough to do it so you can then access the next stage etc. Makes no sense making it easier, it's already fine as is

You can use negative edge to form an OS of sorts so you wont jump away when ticking, if you mess up you block and if you do it right you get SPD

Owwmykneecap

I'm only casual but still like ST more

I like both and have problems with both. neither is perfect.
ST is probably better but HDRemix is whats being played in the EU and US and for that reason it will be the one i concentrate on.

I love chuns sbk in hdr, I'll give sirlin that.

Azza

Dreddybajs wrote:

I don't mind playing either, though some of the balance changes in HDR annoy me (Ryu fake fireball is the worst offender for me, as well as the SPD command change - imo tick throws are powerful enough in ST that being able to do tick 360s/720s without the risk of messing up and jumping is kinda crazy).

Tick throws to command grabs can't be that powerful if the grapplers in ST are regarded as being near the bottom of the tier list and even lower in HDR, besides do pro Zangief players mess up with SPD that often in ST anyway?

Granted a Gief player won the HDR tourney at Evo but it will take me more than 1 result to convince me that Zangief is good character.

As for the graphics, I doubt you guys mind too much about the graphics in the background stages. Just stick the character sprites to ST and all is well.

Dreddybajs

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Azza wrote: »

Tick throws to command grabs can't be that powerful if the grapplers in ST are regarded as being near the bottom of the tier list and even lower in HDR, besides do pro Zangief players mess up with SPD that often in ST anyway?

O. Hawk has been regarded as A tier for a year or more, an O. Hawk duo ripped up X Mania last year (possibly this year too, I didn't see it), and they've qualified for SBO too.

edit: And no, but that's because they've put the practice in at a technique that is powerful enough to warrant needing an execution barrier.

What if you could DP by just pressing jab? Some things in fighting games would be far too good if you reduced their execution barrier (though I'm all for reducing the execution level of ST in general, just certain changes like that I'm opposed to).

Dunjohn

Excellent poll choices. I hadn't played any iteration of SF2 for years before HDR, and even then it was shortly before the release of Super SF4 that I downloaded it. So I'd definitely be casual.

I like Udon's art style and, while I think they could have done a better job with HDR (a lot of the characters look like a sort-of hybrid between their modern, official appearances and their weird, prototypical SFII looks, and while I understand that no new frames were added to the fighters for gameplay reasons, surely some backdrop characters could have received better animation), I'll still take it over the original. Given the time gap, mechanical differences obviously mean nothing to me, so it's looks all the way.

Owwmykneecap

I'm only casual but still like ST more

Dreddybajs wrote: »

though I'm all for reducing the execution level of ST in general.

For the random element is the big problem. I don't mind strict but it should be consistent.
But hey it was the 90's man, crazy times.

Azza

My bad about T.Hawk, I forgot about the old characters.

Dreddybajs wrote:

edit: And no, but that's because they've put the practice in at a technique that is powerful enough to warrant needing an execution barrier.

Will the easier command allow the pro grappler players to take there characters further, does the new command offer any more opportunities to land a command grab. Seems to me without the new command for SPD's they will land it every single time they have the opportunity. Its just players with less technical skill can closer to achieving what the pro's can.

I agree that certain moves need a a certain execution level to them like DP's, but I think ST's SPD execution level was too high. The new command for SPD while very easy to perform compared to the old command is no where near as simple as a single button press.

Doctor DooM

I don't mind, I'll play either, they're just two different builds of SF2, like the other 5 or 6 out there.

Dreddybajs

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Azza wrote: »

does the new command offer any more opportunities to land a command grab

Technically yes as it's impossible to do a standing 720 in ST (as far as I'm aware, it could be possible but entirely impractical) but possible in HDR.

As for SPDs being too tough, I decided to go learn them a few weeks ago in ST, and was able to do tick SPDs maybe 50% after 10 minutes practice. My execution isn't exactly great either. Have you ever put in any work to try and learn to do it?

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

I don't care for the argument of I can't do X or Y. It makes no sense. Especially in this case. SPDs are not that hard, when I first learned stick I sat down for an hour in training in ST and got them down to 90%+. It just takes dedication. Giving yourself this new found ability now puts you in another stage in the game and in the mental fight too. They shouldn't have made it easier.

Here is a video I made at the time to showcase what an hour of proper training can do and has done for me. I don't believe there is anything in the world stopping anyone else mastering a given technique. And believe me, there is plenty of stuff harder than an SPD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4D8TY0st7M

And yes, standing 720s and 360s are possible in ST. You see them a bit actually. You have 3 pre jump frames, so, in order to make it more manageable you can use kara . Hit jab, then 360/720, you will hear the jab whiff but it will be kara cancelled to a SPD/Super

Azza

Okay I was unaware of the ability to do a standing SPD, which would for sure give new opportunities to land it. But it not just a cause of things being added to grapplers in HDR but some things have been removed. From my understanding of it. T. Hawks strongest card in ST was his tick throw loop (for both old and new versions but old Hawk had better normals), very hard to do but impossible to beat if done well. This is gone in HDR in exchange for other buffs and nerfs. Maybe the new ability in conjunction with other buffs will compensate in part for the loss of the tick loop.

Since there is no such thing as old or new characters in HDR (under Remix mode) Hawk is down at the bottom of the tier list along with Gief. Surely the new SPD comamnd can't be overpowered if that is the case

Have any pro grapplers commented on the new command for SPD's?

Spent 20 minutes practising one day but lost patience with it.. I'm not a grappler guy and I can't pick them up and play them at any sort of level that I can a non grappler character. The odd occasion I do play them I don't get in range to SPD them.

Azza

Ramza, not everyone is born equal, not everyone is you. Everyone learns at different rates, what you can learn in an hour others might take 10 hours or some might learn it in 10 minutes. And when it comes to long training sessions, you need the right state of mind and thats something many people don't have. You have truck loads of experience with 3S so going to another fighting game is not as hard as it is for a complete newbie. I have some RTS experience, so I could probably pick up SC2 quicker than you could probably.

Yeah anyone can master any technique at any game if they put enough time into it. The problem is grapplers in ST are crap to okay at best, but you have to be good with grapplers to be crap to okay. Picking up shoto's and charge characters is far easier, there is less barriers there so people stick with them more.

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Well I didn't get where I was now without practice so...

Yeah I know I might be biased because I am experienced but I had just started learning stick. I was terrible. So your argument isn't really valid. And well my reply to not everyone learns the same or can do stuff is train up. There's no excuse against it. Even if you are new to a game you need to learn things. It's fun and is a necessity. It's the way FGs are.

Azza

It is valid because as I said everyone learns at different rates.

Problem with grapplers is that alot of people don't like there play style so they are not going stick around playing them.

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Azza wrote: »

Problem with grapplers is that alot of people don't like there play style so they are not going stick around playing them.

If you really like something enough you'll stick with it and learn the character and all that goes with it

However I do see your argument, I just don't agree with it personally. At the end of the day it's all opinion and we can just agree to disagree

GorySnake

Azza wrote: »

From my understanding of it. T. Hawks strongest card in ST was his tick throw loop (for both old and new versions but old Hawk had better normals), very hard to do but impossible to beat if done well. This is gone in HDR in exchange for other buffs and nerfs. Maybe the new ability in conjunction with other buffs will compensate in part for the loss of the tick loop.

That is one point that OG ST players are touchy about. Some characters whole playstyle was messed with, like you said, O/ST. Hawk had that tick throw loop that couldnt be beaten if done correctly which took a lot of skill to pull off and a lot of practice. Think about all the Hawk players who took time to learn this technique which is invaluable to Hawk's playstyle, only to find the next version has removed it. All that time spent learning gone down the drain. Other characters had similar changes to their playstyle, Fei's HK Chicken Wing has almost no use now besides covering distance since it no longer has + frames advantage, removing his combos and corner pressure, and LK Chicken Wing going through fireballs isnt worth it, since it is very easy to sweep as it lands.

Azza

When you have loops like that it takes the strategy out of the game. If one tactic beats all then if your serious about using that character that's all you need to use.

Patterns like that don't make for interesting game play.

K.O.Kiki

I seriously hate Tiger knee motion, glad it's gone now.

Sisko

Interesting results and discussion.

Its nice to see everyone just discussing it as fellow fighting game fans rather then mortal enemies like on SRK. :pac:

I suppose what a lot of it comes down to is just mere personal preference. So this begs the question:

Say we were to hold a SF2 tournament , which would it be? Would those who like ST more than HDR dislike HDR so much that they'd be massively against HDR being the chosen game? Or would the HDR fans be really annoyed if ST was pushed as being the game to play.

I'd say all the casual voters there wouldn't care either way. As one of those voters, sure I'd prefer HDR but only slightly , ultimately they are very much the same game as far as a casual player is concerned.

But its important to stress while the casual players make up a large majority its the sure SF2 fans opinions that I'm mostly interested in for such a question.

Dunjohn wrote: »

Excellent poll choices.

Cheers man , I did give it some thought

Ramza

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Well like I said before I doubt anyone would object to AE/Arcade ST over HDR. Or would they? I'd much prefer to play on those other two versions, I'm not comfortable on HDR. But then again it will all be down to votes or majority preference. I am only one person. I'd be reluctant to play on HDR but that's my loss I guess if it's being used for tourney

K.O.Kiki

Are you guys looking at the same poll as I am?

Because HDR-only crowd has as many votes as "only-ST" and "prefer ST" COMBINED.

UberPrinny_Baal

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Are you guys looking at the same poll as I am?

Because HDR-only crowd has as many votes as "only-ST" and "prefer ST" COMBINED.

Very much this.

I wish we could play HDR at events over ST, and this poll would seem to suggest this view is shared by most of the community.

We shouldn't stick with ST just because of a vocal minority.

Sisko

True but I still hold those who have a proper passion for SF2's 'opinion' on a higher level than those like myself who play it very casually.


If we had regular sf2 tournies maybe alternation between ST and HDR would be nice since theres really very little game changing differences between the two.

Owwmykneecap

I'm only casual but still like ST more

HDR.

Dreddybajs

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

I wouldn't mind playing HDR at a tournament if it meant more people would play. Honestly though I doubt it'd make much difference whether it was a HDR tournament or an ST tournament, the game is dead.

blag

I'm big into SF2 and would rather HDR

Voted that I'd prefer ST but would have no problem playing HDR if there was a tournament.

Orim

I didn't vote because I don't care. I would slightly lean towards ST because I don't like the new sprites and I think the classic sprites on new backgrounds looks crap. Balance wise I'm not good enough for the changes to make a difference.

Tournament wise my thoughts are :

Orim wrote: »

We have not just held ST tourneys because of people being more vocal about ST. People were more vocal on the issue of ST over AE not HDR.

There is also the fact that ST is easier to run in that there is multiple ways to run it as opposed to one way to run HDR. I mean the first ST tournament the toss up was between AE and ST becuase we simple couldn't run HDR as Marvel was running. That's why the double elim at the last DoC was ST as I knew that future tournaments would likely be held as ST.

GorySnake

Dreddybajs wrote: »

whether it was a HDR tournament or an ST tournament, the game is deadly.

I agree completely