EC withdraws Fás funding

Scofflaw

Problems with Fás continue to give problems - now they're failing EU checks.

European Commission in Dublin director Martin Territt has said European funding for jobs training has de facto been withdrawn for Ireland because of problems encountered with audit trails for funds given to Fás.

He said serious questions had been raised by audits conducted by the commission and that the Irish authorities knew that these questions would have to be answered.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0903/breaking14.html

That's a pretty unusual step for the Commission to take in respect of an older EU country, and gives some indication of the systemic problems with Fás.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

indication? more like damnation from our EU overlords

kuntboy

the vast cohort of young people who are going to turn this economy around

lol. Keep dreamin Ruairi. More like vast cohort of young emigrants abandoning this sinking ship. Of course it doesn't affect you, with your lavish pension.

amacachi

Anyone with any experience at all of FÁS knows how they are, and anyone whose apprenticeship etc. hit any kind of snag can tell you what they're like even more. The place is a bloody joke, and despite the funding rolling into it when I was on the dole the courses I was advised to take were ones run privately that I'd have had to pay for. No problem with paying for courses, but what's the point in FÁS if they're just gonna tell ya to drop 500 quid on a 10 hour course that they have nothing to do with?

To know that a state company has failed EU auditing really is a terrible indictment of the state sector in this country.

demonspawn

So instead of demanding action by the Irish government, the EU has decided in it's infinite wisdom to withdraw funding entirely, effectively punishing those that used FAS as an actual means of training and education instead of the muppets that let it get so bad in the first place.

Well, I can't find any flaws with that kind of logic. Great job EU, keep those cuts coming! Maybe the mighty EU will decide that Catholic-run schools are unconstitutional and cut funding for them too. Perhaps if they investigate even further they'll see the massive corruption at all levels in this country and withdraw their support entirely.

Edit: Not sure why this was moved from EU, its not like that place is overcrowded with threads.

Nijmegen

FAS is a €1bn a year microcosm of almost everything wrong in this country: mismanagement, polite corruption, poor results.

dan_d

demonspawn wrote: »

So instead of demanding action by the Irish government, the EU has decided in it's infinite wisdom to withdraw funding entirely, effectively punishing those that used FAS as an actual means of training and education instead of the muppets that let it get so bad in the first place.

Well, I can't find any flaws with that kind of logic. Great job EU, keep those cuts coming! Maybe the mighty EU will decide that Catholic-run schools are unconstitutional and cut funding for them too. Perhaps if they investigate even further they'll see the massive corruption at all levels in this country and withdraw their support entirely.

Edit: Not sure why this was moved from EU, its not like that place is overcrowded with threads.

Well, it's more forcing those who allowed FAS to get away with their practices to do something about it. But I see your point.

Mind you I'm on the dole, and apparently I HAVE to sign on with FAS.I've said before they can't do anything for me and it's a total money spinning exercise.

So I went into FAS. They told me they can't do anything for me.:rolleyes:

liammur

Scofflaw wrote: »

Problems with Fás continue to give problems - now they're failing EU checks.

I'm surprised they ever passed any EU checks, assuming of course there were checks!

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

So instead of demanding action by the Irish government, the EU has decided in it's infinite wisdom to withdraw funding entirely, effectively punishing those that used FAS as an actual means of training and education instead of the muppets that let it get so bad in the first place.

Suppose you’ve struck a deal with a particular entity to provide investment over a period of time. Suppose, after x amount of time has elapsed, you become concerned with apparent inefficiencies in said entity. Suppose upon further investigation, you discover evidence of gross mismanagement, incompetence, ostentatious “expense” claims, etc. Do you:

1. Propose to sit down with the management of said entity over tae and a bickie to discuss how you might help them improve their performance.
2. Halt funding immediately and demand that your investments to date are accounted for.

I don’t know about you, but I’m going to plump for option 2 every time.

As for those who use FÁS as a means of training and education... I’m guessing that’s a pretty small number of people? The sort of courses that are on offer don’t exactly set the pulse racing. I agree with the concept behind FÁS (provide a means for unemployed individuals to upskill), but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired. They’re still living in the 1970’s as far as I can see.

demonspawn

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose you’ve struck a deal with a particular entity to provide investment over a period of time. Suppose, after x amount of time has elapsed, you become concerned with apparent inefficiencies in said entity. Suppose upon further investigation, you discover evidence of gross mismanagement, incompetence, ostentatious “expense” claims, etc. Do you:

1. Propose to sit down with the management of said entity over tae and a bickie to discuss how you might help them improve their performance.
2. Halt funding immediately and demand that your investments to date are accounted for.

I don’t know about you, but I’m going to plump for option 2 every time.

As for those who use FÁS as a means of training and education... I’m guessing that’s a pretty small number of people? The sort of courses that are on offer don’t exactly set the pulse racing. I agree with the concept behind FÁS (provide a means for unemployed individuals to upskill), but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired. They’re still living in the 1970’s as far as I can see.

Or

3. Sit down with the Irish government and suggest cutting funding for something our scumbags actually care about instead of hanging the most vulnerable out to dry......again.

Nobody in the Dail will give a toss if FAS goes under, the heads already have their retirement funds in their shoe boxes under the bed. The only ones that will suffer are the unemployed that actually want training or just something to do with their time instead of sitting at home playing the Xbox.

FAS isn't great, but it's something. I got two City and Guilds certs from them, concreting and machine tool operation. At least it's something I can use when applying for a job in Australia, the UK, or the US. :rolleyes:

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

3. Sit down with the Irish government and suggest cutting funding for something our scumbags actually care about instead of hanging the most vulnerable out to dry......again.

The most vulnerable are... who exactly? It’s a phrase that’s being thrown around so much these days it’s lost all meaning. How many people actually benefit from the services that FÁS provides? What is the average cost per satisfied customer of running FÁS?

demonspawn wrote: »

FAS isn't great, but it's something.

Why isn’t it great? With the level of funding that has been provided to FÁS, do you think “something” is acceptable?

Permabear

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donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think it's the money area that leads people going to FAS. Not everyone can afford to go college (despite it being free, jobs are hard to come by, most people need to travel to, or move close to, college, which is costly).

demonspawn

djpbarry wrote: »

The most vulnerable are... who exactly? It’s a phrase that’s being thrown around so much these days it’s lost all meaning.

I'd have to say the thousands of recently unemployed that have been sacked over the last 2-3 year. People who have worked in the same place for years only to be told there's no more money to pay them. Their skills are going to waste in this country so maybe retraining is the best option.

How many people actually benefit from the services that FÁS provides? What is the average cost per satisfied customer of running FÁS?
Why isn’t it great? With the level of funding that has been provided to FÁS, do you think “something” is acceptable?

Well I benefited, I got a job over in the States laying concrete with my cert and skills. Of course I also have compressed disks in my spine due to wheeling wheelbarrows full of muck around and carrying around 20kg bags of cement when I was 16. Oh well. :rolleyes:

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's the money area that leads people going to FAS. Not everyone can afford to go college...

Like I said, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with the concept of FÁS, but rather the current implementation. And attending a course at a third-level institution need not be expensive - DIT’s Upskill programme (for example) offers 100% funding for various certs and diplomas while allowing jobseekers to keep their allowance/benefits.

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

I'd have to say the thousands of recently unemployed that have been sacked over the last 2-3 year.

Do you think they will all benefit from what FÁS has to offer? Or even most of them?

demonspawn wrote: »

People who have worked in the same place for years only to be told there's no more money to pay them. Their skills are going to waste in this country so maybe retraining is the best option.

I’d be of the opinion that anyone with anything more than the most basic of skills is not going to be helped by FÁS – their entire programme is hopelessly outdated. The only people who are likely to benefit from FÁS training are those who have never been in employment (perhaps with no more than second-level education) or those who have been out of the workforce for a considerable period of time. However, I cannot imagine that a terribly large number of currently unemployed people in this country fall into those categories. That’s not to say that I do not believe such people should not be provided with some form of assistance if they want to better themselves - I just don't think FÁS (in its current guise) is the solution.

demonspawn wrote: »

Well I benefited, I got a job over in the States laying concrete with my cert and skills.

When you were 16? Is FÁS likely to benefit a 35-year old IT professional who has just lost his job (for example)?

Shiny

djpbarry wrote: »

I’d be of the opinion that anyone with anything more than the most basic of skills is not going to be helped by FÁS

This is completely true.

I remember going on the dole for the first time after graduating. As said
above, I had to register with FAS to qualify for my payment. I went in and
filled out a form that basically indicated your level of qualification, in short
if you have a degree you basically tick nearly all the boxes indicating that
you are pretty much at the highest level of qualification.

I remember going into the meeting, the man looked at my form and he had
a smile on his face and after a quick chat I was given the vibe "Ah sure you're
grand". Pat on the back and out the door, was never inside the FAS
office again. I looked at applying for courses but unless you were long term
unemployed, you didn't have a chance of getting one of the small number of places.

In the end I just went back to university for another year.:rolleyes:

timespast

The one time we really need an organisation for training etc is now...... what we had in the past was out and out corrupt.

When we had 3% unemployment vast amounts of money was being pumped into the organisation....... the men at the top were milking the system and if it happened anywhere else they would of seen the inside of a courtroom.

No wonder the EC have pulled the plug.

Lest we forget.....

http://thestory.ie/2009/09/11/what-you-may-have-missed-about-the-fas-report/

ART6

I don't know if it's occurred to anyone else, but there is a delicious irony in an organisation that hasn't passed its audit for thirteen years withdrawing funding from another that has just failed an audit carried out by the funder.:p

djpbarry

ART6 wrote: »

I don't know if it's occurred to anyone else, but there is a delicious irony in an organisation that hasn't passed its audit for thirteen years withdrawing funding from another that has just failed an audit carried out by the funder.

Which set of accounts do you suppose are subjected to the more rigorous audit - those of the EU or those of FÁS?

southsiderosie

TBH, I never really understood the point of FAS. It's an agency that exists to tell you to get training somewhere else? Quinn is right - why not just run training through the actual schools, rather than this bureaucracy? Libraries can also play a role - they are full of people using the internet to look for jobs and program information.

And as for the "it hurts the most vulnerable" argument, just because a program is supposed to target vulnerable workers doesn't mean it is actually helpful. Are there any actual metrics in terms of getting people into work that justify the amount of money spent here? Frankly, from what I can tell the only people who FAS's closure might really hurt are its overpaid management staff.

demonspawn

djpbarry wrote: »

Is FÁS likely to benefit a 35-year old IT professional who has just lost his job (for example)?

Why not? A 35 year-old IT professional probably has little on no experience in the construction industry. A carpentry course would at least teach him what end of the hammer to use, or a painting course would give him the opportunity of becoming self employed or starting a small business. An electricians course would provide an excellent opportunity for employment (it's actually piss easy when you know what you're doing and electricians have a very nice income).

I'm not arguing that FAS is not horribly managed, but it's no worse that many other government departments. The HSE is a perfect example of this. FAS is the only option for many people that left school early or have no previous work experience, as you've pointed out. The EU should have worked together with the Irish government to sort the place out instead of just cutting funding completely. FAS will probably not disappear completely, too many jobs for the boys would be lost, but many people will now find themselves with no real options regarding education and training.

I'd like to point out that unemployed people wishing to go back to third level education must usually go through FAS to find a place. Doing this on your own is incredibly frustrating and many people just give up before being accepted. I know, I've tried. FAS provides basic academic testing (math, reading, and writing skills) which is required with any application to a third level college or university.

Permabear

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djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Like I said, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with the concept of FÁS, but rather the current implementation. And attending a course at a third-level institution need not be expensive - DIT’s Upskill programme (for example) offers 100% funding for various certs and diplomas while allowing jobseekers to keep their allowance/benefits.

I've never heard of that. To be honest, I'd be the kind of person that'd be in and around FAS a bit.

I left school after Transition Year (never liked school and couldn't stand the thoughts of doing two more years of it) had two or three joe soap jobs that I wasn't mad about, and have been on the dole and on three FAS courses in the past two and a half years (or thereabouts).


Now, I'm no scumbag. I like to consider myself a fairly friendly and semi-intelligent person. I'd love to head off and attend and study something at Third Level, though for the life of me, I still haven't a clue what I'd actually want to do with my life (which means I'm generally not too fond of the idea of wanting to apply to go to a college or somesuch, and dedicate years of my life to something I may despise a few weeks after starting).

I'm 22 now but will be considered a 'mature student' when 23, meaning I can skip the leaving cert as an entry requirement to some Third Level courses.


Now, admittedly, I haven't applied to anywhere or anything, so I'm not too up to date on the routes people take to get into third level at a dodgy age like mine, but when I wanted to go back and get my leaving cert this year (which didn't happen in the end unfortunately, as I got a letter for an interview the day after the interview was scheduled), but it was FAS who pointed me in the right direction and talked me through what I'd need to do, what to expect, who to talk to, etc. so even in that regard they're not too shabby.


Apologies if my post is a little all over the place (I haven't really thought it out too well) but my point is that whilst grossly mis-managed, I think FAS is generally a good thing, and as someone who has been availing of their courses and getting help from them over the last year or two, I think they do provide a useful service.


I do agree that their 'business model' for want of a better term, should be changed, though. They should be more intwined with Third Level Institutes, other independant course providers and such and they should be a 'one stop shop' kinda place for any information, forms, etc. required for furthering you education or work experience in any capacity.

demonspawn

donegalfella wrote: »

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Because there are no IT jobs left and this fella doesn't want to mooch off the government for years until those jobs come back?

Unemployment is devastating to a hard working person's self-esteem and self-worth. Many people would rather scrub toilets, and often do, than sit at home all day watching TV.

southsiderosie

demonspawn wrote: »

Because there are no IT jobs left and this fella doesn't want to mooch off the government for years until those jobs come back?

Unemployment is devastating to a hard working person's self-esteem and self-worth. Many people would rather scrub toilets, and often do, than sit at home all day watching TV.

There is probably a better chance of IT jobs coming back than construction jobs, tbh...

demonspawn

southsiderosie wrote: »

There is probably a better chance of IT jobs coming back than construction jobs, tbh...

No. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of independent contractors/self employed in Ireland doing small jobs, home repair, renovations, etc. They have not been hit as hard by this economic downturn because they don't rely on big business for their paychecks.

Painting is a great example of this. All you need is a bucket and a brush and you can charge fifteen euros an hour if you like. Nobody likes painting and those that still have money to spend (landlords in particular) are likely to just hire a painter to do the job.

Freiheit

I did a Local Training Initiative with Fas a few years ago and to this day feel tempted to report it. The contents on the Certificate at the end bore absolutely no resemblance what I did on the 'course', which wasn't very much. A complete farce and was for everyone else too. Certainly a case of doctoring to conceal the truth.

southsiderosie

demonspawn wrote: »

No. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of independent contractors/self employed in Ireland doing small jobs, home repair, renovations, etc. They have not been hit as hard by this economic downturn because they don't rely on big business for their paychecks.

Painting is a great example of this. All you need is a bucket and a brush and you can charge fifteen euros an hour if you like. Nobody likes painting and those that still have money to spend (landlords in particular) are likely to just hire a painter to do the job.

Given the number of painters, plasterers, carpenters, etc. that are on the live register right now, it makes no sense for the government to spend MORE money to train people in these fields.

I'd also add, having done a fair amount of housepainting myself for a few different small contractors, that pretty much anyone who has worked on a building site can paint, and quickly learn the tricks of the trade through experience. So, again, I don't see why there needs to be government funded training for any of the building trades right now.

demonspawn

Freiheit wrote: »

I did a Local Training Initiative with Fas a few years ago and to this day feel tempted to report it. The contents on the Certificate at the end bore absolutely no resemblance what I did on the 'course', which wasn't very much. A complete farce and was for everyone else too. Certainly a case of doctoring to conceal the truth.

If you ever have a chance, go visit the windmill in Skerries or Swords Castle. Both were FAS projects and I worked on both of them. It's where I got my cert for concreting. I have the knowledge and skills to lay a 50'x50' concrete slab thanks to FAS. I can fully operate a steel milling machine (I'm a certified machine tool operator) thanks to FAS, although it's extremely boring and not something I want to do.

You cannot demerit the work that FAS does because the people that take the courses have no interest in what they do. FAS instructors do their best to train the people under them. If there's a problem with management, as their obviously is, then we need to deal with that and not punish those that use FAS to benefit their lives.

djpbarry

demonspawn wrote: »

Why not? A 35 year-old IT professional probably has little on no experience in the construction industry. A carpentry course would at least teach him what end of the hammer to use, or a painting course would give him the opportunity of becoming self employed or starting a small business.

Because an experienced IT professional needs a painting course before (s)he’s in a position to start his/her own business?

demonspawn wrote: »

FAS will probably not disappear completely, too many jobs for the boys would be lost, but many people will now find themselves with no real options regarding education and training.

How many?

demonspawn wrote: »

Because there are no IT jobs left...

There sure are. What’s more, I can say with absolute certainty that there are more jobs in IT in this country than there are in construction (or related industries).

demonspawn wrote: »

Many people would rather scrub toilets, and often do, than sit at home all day watching TV.

Many people? You sure about that? How many?

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

And attending a course at a third-level institution need not be expensive - DIT’s Upskill programme (for example) offers 100% funding for various certs and diplomas while allowing jobseekers to keep their allowance/benefits.

I've never heard of that.

You can read more about the programme here. Most of the courses are aimed at people with industry experience, but there is also an Access to Higher Education Programme for mature students. Successful completion guarantees entry into DIT’s undergraduate programmes. I’m familiar with DIT because I worked there until quite recently, but I’m sure other institutions have launched similar initiatives.

kevteljeur

demonspawn wrote: »

If you ever have a chance, go visit the windmill in Skerries or Swords Castle. Both were FAS projects and I worked on both of them. It's where I got my cert for concreting. I have the knowledge and skills to lay a 50'x50' concrete slab thanks to FAS. I can fully operate a steel milling machine (I'm a certified machine tool operator) thanks to FAS, although it's extremely boring and not something I want to do.

You cannot demerit the work that FAS does because the people that take the courses have no interest in what they do. FAS instructors do their best to train the people under them. If there's a problem with management, as their obviously is, then we need to deal with that and not punish those that use FAS to benefit their lives.

The punishment isn't being handed out to users of FAS. The users of FAS are being punished by FAS managerial corruption and incompetence. The EU funders can't overlook it because of the human aspect behind it, although inevitably the blame will be laid at their door rather than the old boy's network using that funding as a slush fund and then training people along the way.

This misdirection of responsibility, where the EU, in it's desire to have accountability for the vast sums of money put into FAS, is being held accountable for the training that may be taken away from people who need it, is a real problem. To my mind means that there won't be any real sanction for those who caused the situation. Or: There's as much uproar about the EU wanting their money back since they're not getting the paperwork to show how it was spent, as when we first heard that the money was effectively being spent on lavish holidays and who knows what. How the situation gets resolved here, this is entirely an Irish problem.

FAS is a great idea, run abysmally. People should be fired over this, but that unfortunately won't happen; they're being absorbed into the civil service instead, and applying their skills to other areas. Smart economy indeed; we'll be lucky to have a moderately thick economy, and happy with it.



k

SkepticOne

kevteljeur wrote: »

The punishment isn't being handed out to users of FAS. The users of FAS are being punished by FAS managerial corruption and incompetence. The EU funders can't overlook it because of the human aspect behind it, although inevitably the blame will be laid at their door rather than the old boy's network using that funding as a slush fund and then training people along the way.

I think you are making the same point as demonspawn here. Regardless of who is to blame, it is the ordinary users of FAS that will take the hit, not those responsible.

bamboozle

Nijmegen wrote: »

FAS is a €1bn a year microcosm of almost everything wrong in this country: mismanagement, polite corruption, poor results.

dont forget lack of accountability!

kevteljeur

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think you are making the same point as demonspawn here. Regardless of who is to blame, it is the ordinary users of FAS that will take the hit, not those responsible.

Not quite; I got the impression that demonspawn is suggesting that the funding should continue, and the sanctions applied in some way to the management, whereas I'm suggesting the EU needs to adhere to it's process of accounting for the money spent.

But I agree with your point. The ordinary users will take the hit, unfortunately.



k

demonspawn

kevteljeur wrote: »

Not quite; I got the impression that demonspawn is suggesting that the funding should continue, and the sanctions applied in some way to the management, whereas I'm suggesting the EU needs to adhere to it's process of accounting for the money spent.

But I agree with your point. The ordinary users will take the hit, unfortunately.



k

No sanctions for the management, just sack the lot and keep their pensions. Hire a new generation of people that know how to run the damn thing, EU will see that direct action has been taken and restore funding, and everyone wins.

Well, everyone except the crooked bastards who got a free ride of course, they will most definitely lose.

kevteljeur

demonspawn wrote: »

No sanctions for the management, just sack the lot and keep their pensions. Hire a new generation of people that know how to run the damn thing, EU will see that direct action has been taken and restore funding, and everyone wins.

Well, everyone except the crooked bastards who got a free ride of course, they will most definitely lose.

I think I misunderstood you the first time. Yes, that would work for me too. A shame then that they're already being re-absorbed into the civil service, since sacking isn't an option. That said, we shouldn't go there; doubtless there are hard workers being tarred with the same brush because of an incompetent few.



k