Droppin' science y'all!

DeVore

Yo dawg, I heard you liked science so I uhh, did some.


Kharn and I sat down last night and created a bunch of zerglings and zealots to mess about with.
We sent various combinations towards each other. One thing we discovered was:

2 Zealots will kill 6 lings.... just.... but 7 lings will kill 2 zealots leaving one ling very very weakened (about 5 health left).

This was tested by running the lings at stationary 'lots, all basic troops.

DeV.

Zapp Brannigan

Plain ole 'lings versus normal zealots yeah?

EDIT: That'll teach me to not read the post!

Funky

Zealots with +1 attack will absolutely massacre lings though ^^ Oh the joys of Starcraft sciencing

Agent J

Any improvements to either side?

NeoSlicerZ

If you have decent micro you can kill 5 lings with one zealot or like 10+ with 2, gotta avoid the surround.

DeVore

That would be interesting to see Neo...

We found the break even point for one zealot was 4 lings which seems reasonable.

No side was ugraded, bare bones units.

We'll test a few more with upgrades etc.

DeV.

Kirby

Nice info. One thing though.

Speedlings are essential and always upgraded within the first 5 minutes....often before the first skirmish or engagement even happens. Most zerg players time their gas mining so that they have 100 gas right as the spawning pool finishes so they can go straight into the upgrade. This means by the time the zerg player creates even ten lings, he already has the upgrade.

It really makes no sense to leave the zerglings without upgrades in the test as how often do you see a fight without it?

BlitzKrieg

Speedlings are essential and always upgraded within the first 5 minutes....often before the first skirmish or engagement even happens. Most zerg players time their gas mining so that they have 100 gas right as the spawning pool finishes so they can go straight into the upgrade

I do the 100 gas...but I hold off on spending it on speedlings depending on my opponent...in my opinion that gas can be crucial sent in numerous directions from a fast roach army, 450 minerals 100 gas = roach warren + 4 roaches which would be quicker then speedlings (roach warren builds quicker then speedling upgrade and is only 150 minerals) so in the time it would take a player to field 12 or so speedlings I should have roaches which take alot more beating and can snipe from cliffs etc.

Or if your opponent is going fast air for the same price I can tech up to tier 2 much quicker and get hydra's out.

I'd go speedlings mostly vs terran cause they can get the surrond on marine blobs so well and the roach can be seriously hampered with good marauder micro with concussion shells (pretty much the same as fighting them with zealots). but I'd hold off and rarely go speedlings against protoss when roaches hyrda mix is much stronger (roaches soak up so much damage and if I get burrow they heal fast too between battles)

Zerg mirrors its up in the air...If I mass speedlings they can go to town on roaches but again a wall of roaches can tie up speedlings for some time as hyrdas pepper them.

Against Protoss Speedlings would be a late addition if my foe is using immortals more (which nom nom nom roaches) over voidrays/colossus which again the roach soaks up that damage while hyrdra pacifies at range. Mass stalkers could be an issue too but that would be more a macro game then actual units and it creates a sort of weird parallel universe where the zerg player is actually trying to get the battle to happen at a choke because the advantage of stalkers over roaches (speed/range) is nullified if caught at a choke rather then in plains where the surrond would be more important with speedlings.

seraphimvc

^agree pretty much everything Blitz said Blitz you are defo a zerg man!

against protoss i always get roaches before speed. if i see him going stalkers more than zealot then i will get more lings+speed in the mean time i pump up hydra. lings are just awesome against stalkers! if you can surround them stalkers up then they will eat them alive. and the general consensus of colusus is that they are anti lings, but if ya get surround with lings, colusus will go down surprisingly fast!

for the science part:

5 baneling is the exact amout of explosion you need to break a pylon( or two, if they placed close to each other). use wise when you get a cannon block/rush :pac: pylon hp > cannon hp btw.

BlitzKrieg

5 baneling is the exact amout of explosion you need to break a pylon( or two, if they placed close to each other). use wise when you get a cannon block/rush pylon hp > cannon hp btw.

OooOOOooOOh

I can use this. i've pretty much used banelings only in custom games (like nexus wars where they own) or against terran/zerg mirrors never against protoss cause the shields seem to deflect alot of their effect.

But now I might use them when I see someone popping alot of cannons.


I have learnt today the worse thing for me to do is to see someone make a horrible mistake while I scout them cause it makes me too relaxed...I lost to a lame cannon push followed by voidrays today cause he pulled all his drones of his mineral line to kill the extracter I popped down on his gas.


Also I'm wondering against protoss would it be worth using two drones to cap both of his gas from the get go...it be a 150 mineral but it would stop him from building any gas related unit until he has one zealot or pulls all his drones of his mineral line...

I mean without gas...he has zealots...no warpgate...no cybernetics core...no stalkers.

seraphimvc

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Also I'm wondering against protoss would it be worth using two drones to cap both of his gas from the get go...it be a 150 mineral but it would stop him from building any gas related unit until he has one zealot or pulls all his drones of his mineral line...

I mean without gas...he has zealots...no warpgate...no cybernetics core...no stalkers.

valid point! i usually do the extrator cancel thing to increase my scout time - dont let the extrator finish, cancel when it nearly is done, scout, redo extrator again :pac:

now if i take his 2 extrator and he is going void ray build then i smell my fast nydus worm coming!

BlitzKrieg

I tried it there...it worked until he caught me out of position...and rushed my base i was killing off an expansion with my hydras and he came in strong at my backside while I was away (damn slow ass hydras) by the time I got back he had leveled my lair and 2 hatcherys


But it really p*ssed him off grabbing both gasses

Agent J

I gas cap when playing Zerg a bit.

It slows them down , gives you a look at their base and where it is. And it can catch them off guard...

Downside is it costs you 2 drones at the start and 50 mineral.

Dustaz

DeVore wrote: »

That would be interesting to see Neo...

We found the break even point for one zealot was 4 lings which seems reasonable.

No side was ugraded, bare bones units.

We'll test a few more with upgrades etc.

DeV.

Neo is right, you gotta allow for movement and terrain etc.

Like, you could theory up how a queen does against reapers but when do they ever stand toe to toe. If reapers are in your base, the terran wont just park them hitting drones, hes going to be moving them in and out of creep and thats when they really get the upper hand on your units.

DeVore

But often the fight happens just outside the base at the start, everyone has their troops set to gather there usually. So the first fight, the only fight that can have this sort of analysis applied to it, is the one we're looking at. We did an hour replay of us running various basic groups at each other. I'll throw it up online soon.

DeV.

NeoSlicerZ

In a PvZ, my zealot will always be standing at a choke so that only 2-3 lings can hit him with a sentry behind to split the army. Maybe a second zealot if I scout a 8-10 pool.

Edit: ugh, looking at my sig makes me depressed, I r so bad.

Dustaz

I havent even bothered publishing that sig here, its too depressing

Kirby

Mine isn't too bad. I tend to go on winning streaks and then losing streaks. It's weird. Also about 30 of my losses are crashes to desktop. Frustrating.

DeVore

where do you find the replay file or where can you save it to disk?

DeV.

Grimebox

C:\Users\Niall\Documents\StarCraft II\Accounts\54925309\2-S2-1-1364543\Replays\Multiplayer

thats where it is for me on win 7. Obviously replace the username and accounts number with your own

Dustaz

trying to find replays kept me amused for hours one night.

Why the hell are they saved to documents rather than the game folder like 99% of other games.

Silly.

BlitzKrieg

Why the hell are they saved to documents rather than the game folder like 99% of other games.

Silly.

most rts keep them in documents.

looking at mine quickly. All the recent C&C games and Relic games keep them in documents too. As do most other EA games with profiles etc

Anti

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

OooOOOooOOh

I can use this. i've pretty much used banelings only in custom games (like nexus wars where they own) or against terran/zerg mirrors never against protoss cause the shields seem to deflect alot of their effect.

But now I might use them when I see someone popping alot of cannons.


I have learnt today the worse thing for me to do is to see someone make a horrible mistake while I scout them cause it makes me too relaxed...I lost to a lame cannon push followed by voidrays today cause he pulled all his drones of his mineral line to kill the extracter I popped down on his gas.


Also I'm wondering against protoss would it be worth using two drones to cap both of his gas from the get go...it be a 150 mineral but it would stop him from building any gas related unit until he has one zealot or pulls all his drones of his mineral line...

I mean without gas...he has zealots...no warpgate...no cybernetics core...no stalkers.

Ive had this happen to me before, its used by some pretty decent players. The only way to get around it as toss is to see it early and use your scouting probe to drop a pylon in the mineral line and hopefully get off a quick 2 gate right next to the hatchery. Stupidly hard to pull off though but can by you some time. Usually dosen't work as the zerg will just mass pump lings.

Oh and for more on what Devore was talking about, but on a larger scale check out some of the videos below:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=200+zerglings+vs+ultralisk&aq=f

There is one where 798 lings go up against a Ultralisk, with lots of variations on upgrades on the lings and ultra. Quite a shocking outcome i found.

BlitzKrieg

random offtopic question

any net cafes in dublin with sc2? I'm travelin at the mo and my comp is back in london. And all this talk and replays etc makes me want to play in my downtime (like now) I tried the one across from games workshop but they only have the beta

seraphimvc

Anti wrote: »

There is one where 798 lings go up against a Ultralisk, with lots of variations on upgrades on the lings and ultra. Quite a shocking outcome i found.

not too shocking when you think of there are actually only about 11 lings surround that 1 ultralisk at one time, they can barely attack him before they are killed by ultra's cleave attack.

Anti

True, but i would have expected 798 lings to kill a few ultras though.

seraphimvc

Protoss can warp in, Zerg can nydus, Terran has TELEPORTATION!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtMGOA1C6x8

inspired by Morrow rofl. saw his thread in TL fw days ago and people actually make a video for it:D

BlitzKrieg

Cybernetics Core is the perfect starcraft 2 building

Eh

what's blitzy talking about.

well he's rambling actually due to lack of sleep. but a rambling from an observation from steady gaming through the night.

Of all the buildings in starcraft 2...


the cybernetics core is the most perfect building.

It flows...

It flows into every aspect of the protoss war machine making it the lynchpin of their base.

just to list it all.

-It gives you access to tier 2 buildings

-It bolsters your tier 1 unit selection (stalker and sentry)

-It offers crucial tier 1 upgrade for all tier 1 buildings (warp gate)

-It offers upgrade to specific tier 1 unit (sentry)

-It offers tier 2 upgrades for air forces.

Thats a benefit for practically all aspects of a protoss army.

And thats why its a perfect building. it flows with the game. You go from cybernetics to any sort of build. And you only ever need one.

Nothing on zerg or terran come close.

Sure the barracks and war factory move you up the tech tree but they require such drastic shifts for specific builds (reactor for heavy marine, reactor for tier 1 tech.) They are not flowing tech.

They are dead end tech trees. Going reactor gives no benefit to anything else in your forces and tech lab are tier specific and still require another structure for that tier's full potential (armory, ghost academy). Its a flow of sorts but sort of small pushes into specific tech trees which harness a small fraction of your army rather then the vast river that makes up the cybeernetics core.

Its fine for terran though, quantity over quality, multiple copies of each building is standard and can ensure with a bit more of a cost they too can have their tech flow with add on swapping and even though there are dead end tech trees (buildings that focus purely on one unit) the units produced by them are extremely versitile and powerful (marines/medivacs/hellions).

Similar protoss does have dead end tech trees with the dark templer shrine and templer archives but again, even though its a building that benefits nothing else or leads to higher tech they do provide very powerful units.

So we have dead end tech buildings (buildings that give you access to a single unit and focus on that unit alone)

All of Protoss dead end tech buildings are at the end of their tech tree

terran the same really have the dead end with the fusion reactor and ghost academy only. Though you can purposely dead end a building such as a barracks for an increase in production instead.

and we have flow tech buildings (buildings that give you access to new units but also benefits for other units/buildings)

the cybernetics core is the best flow building in the game pretty much benefiting everything in the protoss army in some form.

The twilight council is a flow building and the fleet beacon/robotics bay too to an extent.

In terran: barracks, war factory and starport are all flow buildings, they lead into each other in the tech tree. Hence the 1 1 1 build. Its a flow that is easy for a player to follow. Though nowhere near as impressive as the cybernetics core. Enginearing bay is a small flow - benefits to tier 1 and aa defence and building upgrades. Same with armory - new unit and tier 2 upgrades for both land and air.

There is a flow in these buildings that make them natural builds that allow the player to still have some freedom in his army build and focus.


You can guess where I am going with this.


Zerg has very little flow tech.

its flow tech is spawnin pool for tier 2 and infestation pit for tier 3.


Its particulary damning as I feel it goes a long way to explain why zerg is such a reactive force as it takes a much larger commitment to counter then it does with the other sides. If you go Roaches you only go roaches, you cant gain a benefit for any other unit from a roach warren.

A baneling nest only gives you banelings and so on.

There's no spread of tech flow to encoruge combinations.

If you are going for a baneling nest then zerglings are going to be a natural part of your force so there should be some sort of tech bonus for them that comes available in tier 2 in the baneling nest without the need of turning them into banelings. just so a baneling nest can feel like it flows into tier 2 as a whole rather then going to baneling and staying exclusively baneling. Similary a roach warren should offer something for the rest of the army. Perhaps burrow should be here instead of in the lair or some other benefit for the greater army then simply roache benefits. Similary in tier 2, the hydralisk den should have a tech upgrade for roaches in it, to encoruge using them as tanks to protect hydras over simply a single tech upgrade and a new unit.

At least with the hydra its a dead end tech to a versitile unit, having dead end tech to banelings a highly situational unit and infestors similarly situational that can be compared to sentries easily which come packaged with stalkers and vast tech upgrades. The nydus network again is a dead end tech building.

The Spire is pretty close to a flow tech building except the akwardness of getting the greater spire (infestor pit + hive) Really a spire should work just like an infestor pit and also allow a tech to hive.

Ultralisk cavern is a dead tech, but it is rightly needed to be so, much like the battlecruise and high templer, its a vastly powerful unit with widespread attack. A climax if you will.

I'm not saying that its an imba...but its what makes it difficult to play as zerg as each building you put down is a much greater commitment to a specific unit makeup over other sides which have greater flow in their tech.

for example A roach warren would go down roughly just before or at the same time as a cybernetics core. With that warren I am commiting to a heavy armour shot range ground unit as the centerpiece of my early game strategy. Which if my opponent is heavy on zealots...then i have the advantage and whoopie to me. While my opponents cybernetics core could be to benefit a large zealot build with warpgates or it could bring in stalkers and sentries, or even a quick tech starport for air forces. My tech I'll need to to tech to lair and then plant another building to get a unit to counter air. yes I can tech sooner straight after the spawning pool. But again this is all reactive and reliant on scouting. its not imba, its just requires more attention and is clearly more work.

hence Zerg's biggest problem is that their tech tree is full of dead ends.

seraphimvc

tech switch in zerg can be fatal at times. that said, zerg is the most under-developed race in sc2 atm. the reason? Blizzard need something to sell in the next HoS dont they? look at Terran, so freaking well developed!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

but after a year or so between the first sc2 game and the expansion, will all the starcraft noobs (like myself) switch over to the new and improved zerg afte ra year or practicing with terran?