The Wild Geese and James III, the 'Chevalier'

MarchDub

I've been doing some research into the Wild Geese and one of them Charles Wogan, born in Rathcoffey Co Kildare, is an especially interesting character. His life history reads like a gothic novel. He was a Captain in the Jacobite army that fought in the Battle of Preston in 1715 in a failed attempt to regain the throne for the Stuart line. He was captured after the battle and imprisoned in Newgate gaol. He escaped just before his trial and sometime later he joined the Spanish Army where he eventually became a Brigadier General.

Wogan remained a close friend and supporter of James III - as he styled himself - and was chosen in 1718 as the principal man to escort the Polish Catholic Princess Clementina Sobieskito to Rome for marriage to James. There was a need for James to produce an heir and keep the Stuart line going so marriage was imperative. France already recognised him as King of Scotland, England and Ireland.

Before the marriage could take place George I of England sent out an order that she be arrested – the English monarch did not want James to have an heir. She was taken prisoner at Innsbruck by Emperor Charles VI of Austria. Wogan organised her escape with three other ‘Wild Geese’ Irish officers of the French army , Major John Gaydon, Captain O'Toole and Captain John Misset. They dressed as commercial merchants and travelled in a hired carriage. The Princess was disguised as a maid and they all travelled on false documentation. James married her near Rome in Montefiascone and the marriage later produced an heir, who became known as Bonnie Prince Charlie, 'The Young Pretender'.

Wogan corresponded with Jonathan Swift and in a letter to Swift in 1732 Wogan estimated that around 120,000 Irish men were killed in Continental armies in the 40 year period at the height of Irish Catholic participation there. It’s hard to figure where he got this number from but as recruitment in Ireland was common at the time it is possibly close to correct. Recruitment for continental armies in Ireland was made illegal in 1745 by the British government.

I have a copy of Wogan’s own account describing some of these deeds but there is not much on line that I can post except these links from the SEARC website and a link from the Jacobite Heritage Site concerning the marriage place of James. If you scroll down you can see the reference to Wogan’s published account in note 3.


http://www.searcs-web.com/wogan.html

http://www.jacobite.ca/gazetteer/Lazio/Montefiascone.htm


Would be interested in hearing if anyone has anything to add – or comment – on any of this.

Snickers Man

The only other Wogan I ever heard of (Sir Terence) claims him as a kinsman.

He was awarded the title of Chevalier for his exploits which his uncouth countrymen, unimpressed then as now by airs and graces, corrupted to Shoveller.

I believe there have been one or two really bad B movies made about him. It reads like a classic Errol Flynn movie. The dashing soldier of fortune rescuing the beautiful princess from the clutches of the evil potentate who is trying to keep her from marrying the man she loves.

In fact it was an arranged marriage and by all accounts not the happiest. Clementina Sobieska (great grandaughter of the famous Jan Sobieski, the Polish king who saved Europe from Turkish domination at the battle of Vienna) was a religious fanatic and James III, no more than his priapic father and uncle James II and Charles II liked to get it on, so there were loads of affairs and dalliances.

One of her sons was Bonnie Prince Charlie, who by some accounts was as camp as Christmas, and the other became a bishop. So the line of James II quickly died out.

MarchDub

Snickers Man wrote: »

The only other Wogan I ever heard of (Sir Terence) claims him as a kinsman.

He was awarded the title of Chevalier for his exploits which his uncouth countrymen, unimpressed then as now by airs and graces, corrupted to Shoveller.

I believe there have been one or two really bad B movies made about him. It reads like a classic Errol Flynn movie. The dashing soldier of fortune rescuing the beautiful princess from the clutches of the evil potentate who is trying to keep her from marrying the man she loves.

In fact it was an arranged marriage and by all accounts not the happiest. Clementina Sobieska (great grandaughter of the famous Jan Sobieski, the Polish king who saved Europe from Turkish domination at the battle of Vienna) was a religious fanatic and James III, no more than his priapic father and uncle James II and Charles II liked to get it on, so there were loads of affairs and dalliances.

One of her sons was Bonnie Prince Charlie, who by some accounts was as camp as Christmas, and the other became a bishop. So the line of James II quickly died out.

Yes it was an arranged marriage - Wogan doesn't actually claim to have been the arranger - but some sources do - but says that it was "friends" of James who came up with the name of the Princess. The chief concern - after the choosing of the actual wife - was to ensure that the marriage was legal and recognised by the countries that were willing to accept James as King of England, hence the dash to Rome and a church where the ceremony could be performed in public view as it were.

Wogan himself says at the beginning of his narrative that the story is like a novel. He certainly loved to give details as it is full of comments about the flight and the emotional condition and attitude of each participant.

Of more interest is his correspondence with Swift. Swift obviously found him to be an engaging man and urged him to publish more about his experiences and his poetry, some written in Latin. Wogan apparently never did this.

OS119

Snickers Man wrote: »

...One of her sons was Bonnie Prince Charlie, who by some accounts was as camp as Christmas, and the other became a bishop. So the line of James II quickly died out.

i'm fairly sure BPC had a daughter - can't really remember whether she was legitimate or not - and that there is still a Stuart bloodline in existence, some very minor German/Austrian aristocracy that say 'yes, we are the decendants of the Stuarts, but we make no claims on their behalf...'.

from recall, i think it was the various states who put up the Stuarts losing interest in them as tools of policy that really did for them, rather than just BPC's love for the bottle and the whiff of lavender that surrounded him. had France and the Vatican been really interested in the Stuarts they could have continued the farce - i mean noble and ancient line - that they chose not to suggests they had found a policy that didn't include the Stuarts...

isn't there some nutjob doing the rounds who reckons he's the Stuart heir and also something to do with the Holy Grail - blood of Christ or some equally 'unwell' claim to fame?

MarchDub

OS119 wrote: »

i'm fairly sure BPC had a daughter - can't really remember whether she was legitimate or not - and that there is still a Stuart bloodline in existence, some very minor German/Austrian aristocracy that say 'yes, we are the decendants of the Stuarts, but we make no claims on their behalf...'.

from recall, i think it was the various states who put up the Stuarts losing interest in them as tools of policy that really did for them, rather than just BPC's love for the bottle and the whiff of lavender that surrounded him. had France and the Vatican been really interested in the Stuarts they could have continued the farce - i mean noble and ancient line - that they chose not to suggests they had found a policy that didn't include the Stuarts...

isn't there some nutjob doing the rounds who reckons he's the Stuart heir and also something to do with the Holy Grail - blood of Christ or some equally 'unwell' claim to fame?

Bonnie Prince Charlie had no children that were heirs - what you may be thinking is that the Stuart line was then passed on to the descendants of Charles I through his daughter Princess Henrietta and her line. But once the Papacy recognised the Hanovers as Kings of England the push for a Catholic Stuart restoration essentially died out.

And yes, I seem to remember seeing something a while ago on TV of some guy in Australia? claiming that he was the current heir.

CDfm

BFC had a daughter Charlotte Duchess of Albany by Clemintina Walkinshaw. They never married and she lived in poverty. Charlotte herself had 3 children by an archbishop in france.

She took care of BFC in the last years of his life and even managed to win over Henry Stuart the Cardinal Brother of Charles who Charles relied on for funds.

She died around 2 years after Charles. Henry as a Catholic Priest had no Children and did not style himself as the Pretender.

Her children were brought up by her mother and her daughters returned to Britain and her son became a soldier and died in Scotland.

(d) Louise = Charles Edward Stuart “Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Young Pretender”.
Charles Edward Stuart by his mistress, Clementina, Countess of Alberstroff, d. of
John Walkinshaw of Camlachie & Barrowfield, Lanarkshire > Charlotte Stuart,
duchess of Albany who had by Prince Ferdinand de Rohan Guemenée, Archbishop
of Bordeaux (brother of Eduard de Rohan of the Diamond Necklace scandal) >:
(1) Aglae (b. 1780/1)
(2) Marie (b. 1782/3)
(3) Charles Edward, Baron Rohanstart (b. 1784), employed in household of
Prince Alexander of Würtemberg, went to United States (1812-4), killed in a
coach accident and buried at Dunkeld Cathedral in 1854. He married twice but
had no heirs.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pillagoda/ch15-02.htm

This is the Aussie Guy -the 14th Earl of Loudan an English upper class drop out

Australian - Rightful King of England?

---

A New South Wales man has been identified as the rightful King of England by a leading historian.

Medieval scholar, Dr Michael Jones says he can prove Queen Elizabeth's claim to the throne is illegitimate and it should belong to Michael Abney-Hastings.
British-born Mr Abney-Hastings, who moved to southern NSW as a teenager, is the subject of a British documentary.

Mr Jones, one of Britain's leading historians, believes he has proved through painstaking research that the Royal Family's right to rule is based on a lie.

He says King Edward IV, who reigned from 1461 to 1483, was not of royal blood; he was the illegitimate son of a French archer.



Sitting in his home in Jerilderie, 640km southwest of Sydney, in a T-shirt and shorts with a can of beer after a hard day at the wheel of a forklift truck, is the man who it is claimed should by rights be King Michael I of England.

But the 62-year-old, who is about to unwillingly step into the world spotlight, has no plans for a change of lifestyle.

Mr Abney-Hastings was astounded when Mr Jones and a Channel 4 crew turned up on his doorstep. "When they told me I was surprised all right," he said.

"But I don't think it will worry us too much. Titles don't mean much out here and I have no intention of leaving Jerilderie.

"Why would you want to be king anyway? They can't do anything without someone on their back. This thing will all blow over in a couple of weeks and life will go back to normal."

The British research shows the heirs of King Edward IV's younger brother, the Duke of Clarence are the rightful rulers of England.

Mr Abney-Hastings has three daughters, two sons and five grandchildren and he works for Rice Research Australia on a 2400ha farm.

Apart from when his wife died a year ago, Mr Abney-Hastings had not visited an Australian city for 12 years.

He has a strong tie with the community and is president of the local historical society and the St Vincent de Paul group.

"I was at dinner yesterday at a friend's house and they all stood up and sang 'God save the King' as I walked in. We all had a laugh," he said.

In fact, "King" Mike is not quite as Australian as his broad accent suggests. Born in England and educated at Ampleforth public school, he is the 14th Earl of Loudon, and a string of other lesser titles. The evidence which may change his life is in a document Dr Jones found in a library in France's Rouen Cathedral.

It proves, he says, that at the time of Edward IV's conception, his parents were 160km apart.

Edward's "father", Richard Duke of York, was fighting the French at Pontoise, near Paris, while Edward's mother, Lady Cicely Neville - based at Rouen - was apparently deeply engrossed in the company of a local archer.

In the five-week period when conception could have taken place, Edward's royal father was a good five days' march away.

The court was rife with whispers of an affair.

King Louis XI of France is recorded as shouting about Edward: "His name is not King Edward - everybody knows his name is Blaybourne!' (the surname of the French archer).

A concerted campaign was launched by the family, hoping to stifle such rumours.

The royal flaks even suggested that conception had taken place in May 1440 in Yorkshire, before the royal parents set sail for France: an 11-month pregnancy!

The documentary airs in Britain next week. No release date has been set for Australia.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200184

Having a quick google the current head of the Royal House of Stuart is the Duke of Bavaria thru Princess Henrietta and this will pass eventually to Princess Sophie of Leichenstein his niece and her heirs. Not really significant but thats where it is.

OS119

the Aussie bloke isn't the one i've read about - there's a 'history' book around that supports the Stuart claim (not quite sure who in the Stuart gene pool though), and links it all in a very da vinci code way to the Holy Grail - it might be 'holy blood, holy grail' but i'm not sure, the one i'm thinking of was written by a bloke calling himself 'the Chevalier summmat summat...'.


i was in the library one day and was very, very bored...

CDfm

There are a few claimants.

The British position is that succession is derived from the Act of Settlement 1701.

MarchDub

Charles had perhaps a number of illegitimate children [no one knows for sure how many, that's always the problem with a possible illegitimate line, they're usually not documented] - including a son who lived for a short while but was then rumoured to be actually be alive but there is absolutely no evidence that the son lived for anything but a short while.

BPC left no legitimate heirs and this was the crux of the matter. He did late in life try to get Charlotte recognised as his rightful heir but that wasn't going to fly and the legitimate line passed to the Princess Henrietta line.

The issue of legitimate or illegitimate has been a part of Royal succession for all time. Henry VIII had this problem when his first marriage was annulled - thus making Princess Mary not 'legal' for succession. But in the end Henry managed to have all children from his marriages succeed. But again, his illegitimate lines never were. Likewise, BPC's line had to be from a legitimate marriage source even without considering the Settlement Act.

CDfm

OS119 wrote: »

the Aussie bloke isn't the one i've read about - there's a 'history' book around that supports the Stuart claim (not quite sure who in the Stuart gene pool though), and links it all in a very da vinci code way to the Holy Grail - it might be 'holy blood, holy grail' but i'm not sure, the one i'm thinking of was written by a bloke calling himself 'the Chevalier summmat summat...'.


i was in the library one day and was very, very bored...

I think I have tracked your guy down and very impressive he was too.

Laurence Gardner is a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland. Distinguished as the Chevalier de St. Germain, he is a constitutional historian, a Knight Templar of St Anthony, and is Presidential Attaché to the European Council of Princes. Based in England, he is author of The Times and Sunday Times bestseller, Bloodline of the Holy Grail. This was serialized nationally in the Daily Mail and gained Laurence a UK Author of the Year award in 1997

http://gnostalgia.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/rip-laurence-gardner-bloodline-of-the-holy-grail/

The Book Bllodline of the Holy Grail -very Da Vinci Code type stuff

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?z=y&EAN=9780760707357&itm=1

So you might like this guy Prince Michael Duke of Albany

http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/fantasy/stuart.htm

and this link to Fantasy Royalty

http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/fantasy/fantasy.htm

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

This is the Aussie Guy -the 14th Earl of Loudan an English upper class drop out

Thanks - I knew I saw something on TV about that but wasn't paying much attention.

OS119

CDfm wrote: »

I think I have tracked your guy down and very impressive he was too...

he's a fruitbat then? thought so...

that book was just interminable, it was like swimming in cold treacle. utter tripe.

CDfm

OS119 wrote: »

he's a fruitbat then? thought so...

that book was just interminable, it was like swimming in cold treacle. utter tripe.

He was a career writer and it could very loosely be described as "factional" and is very much like we think of the Milesian Kings and folklore.The Knights Templar thing made me laugh. But yeah -it looks like he churned out books to a particular market.

Carlsberg dont do genealogy but if they did ..................:D:D:D

Sorry Marchdub for dragging your thread off topic but I have recently read an old biography of BPC and he certainly was a bit of a loose cannon.

Henry his brother was more of a realist and their father was too in later life.

I will see if I still have the book but it was hard going.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Thanks - I knew I saw something on TV about that but wasn't paying much attention.

Its my tabloid mind

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Its my tabloid mind

As wise men often say [or should say] - no comment.

MarchDub

I would like to add - in the spirit of my OP - that legitimate heirs were gold dust to the monarchy. In his narrative about his role in the marriage of James III our friend Wogan goes into great detail and a long explanation about the necessity of James having an heir and the importance of this to bolstering the Jacobite cause and giving 'life' to the validity of his claim to the throne.

He also details the frights that the 'British Court' was suffering at the very idea of James having an heir via a legal marriage. The Hanover King took the threat seriously enough to send his envoy to the Emperor Charles to argue on matters of canon law against the marriage.

CDfm

Wogan was indeed a mover and a shaker becoming a General in Spain and a Governor of a province so he was a man of some ability.

He was also an author and pampleteer

3 Charles Wogan, Narratives of the Detention, Liberation and Marriage of Maria Clementina Stuart, Styled Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, edited by John T. Gilbert (Dublin, Ireland: John Dollard, 1894), 104. According to one source "Cardinal Gualterio had prepared the house of one of his relations for their [wedding] reception" (Haile, 277); presumably Bishop Bonaventura was a relative of Cardinal Gualterio

http://www.jacobite.ca/gazetteer/Lazio/Montefiascone.htm

this link also has bits on the Stuart Royal House

A bit of a writer he struck up correspondence with Jonathan Swift who he admired and who was a fan of his work. He struck up correspondence anonymously and when Swift knew who he was he still corresponded with him and tried to get him publisher.They discussed if the Irish could and should govern themselves and the victories Irish Soldiers were involved in overseas maybe from a defence of the realm perspective.

Swift himself was a satirist and influential thinker and pamphleteer. His work a "Modest Proposal" on eating infants aimed to draw attention to the affects the British Economic Policies had on Ireland and was a Dean on the cathedral which itself was an official appointment.

I wonder if Wogans ideas influenced Swift and in turn the likes of Wolfe-Tone and Lord Edward Fitzgerald as Swift was well connected in kildare.

A modest proposal link here http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

Pamphleteers like Swift often published anonymously sas Swift did.to avoid prosecution and criminal libel.

Because of his exploits Wogan was famous in his own right.



Along with James III and BPC, Wogan was appointed a provincial Governor and General by the Spanish and created a Baron by the Pope.

CDfm

A little footnote - Charles Wogan coined the word uncouth used in its current usage and we know that Dean Swift admired his writings

The first time uncouth was used specifically to mean “uncultured” was in 1732 by a guy complaining that he and his entire country were seen as uncouth. Sir Charles Wogan was an English Catholic fugitive living pretty high on the hog in France and Spain and writing to Jonathan Swift, the guy who wrote Gulliver’s Travels. Swift lived in Ireland and was trying to help Wogan out by getting him a publisher in Dublin. Wogan had been born in Ireland and was bemoaning the attitude of the English toward their common homeland.

http://podictionary.com/?p=641

MarchDub

Yes, Wogan had a lively correspondence with Swift and in one to his letters to Wogan Swift thanks him for sending him a 'cask' of Spanish wine along with some of his verse. Good way to influence a critic!

CDfm

So effectively, Wogan almost singlehandedly saved the Royal House of Stuart for a generation, caused several rebellions and influenced a new generation of Irish Upper Class Rebels.

A bit like James Bond and Colonel Oliver North doncha think. He was the business.

George the First must have hated him

First he led an escape from Newgate gaol where he was awaiting trial for treason

and

for his part in the rising of 1715;

three years later he arranged the escape of a princess arrested on the orders of King George.

The princess was Clementina Sobieski, the grand-daughter of the Polish king who won the battle of Vienna against the Turks in 1683. She was engaged to be married to James Francis Edward, son of James II, the Stuart King who was driven from the British throne in 1688 and replaced by William of Orange, later followed by the Hanoverians

.
and

The latter had everything to gain by the extinction of the Stuart line and tried to prevent James from marrying, by the simple expedient of placing his fiancée under house arrest at Innsbruck as she was on her way to join him

.
and

He did not count on Wogan who, with the help of three of his relations, officers in the Irish brigade of Dillon based in France, scooped the princess from her prison; and they galloped over the Alps in their carriage in winter to safety. Clementina and James were married soon after and their first child was to be Bonnie Prince Charlie.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87152