Daughter wants to do physics but not allowed

DS22

My daughter wants to do physics for leaving cert 2012
but school wont do the subject
Can you tell me how she can do partime physics somewhere and the practicals
Irish institure only does grind type physics
My daughter wants to be an engineer and this is so frustrating

mconigol

Will they not allow her to study it on her own i.e. during geography classes or whatever could she not study physics herself? She would probably need seperate grinds also though.

Other than that she could study it at home+get grinds either as an extra subject or not bother with one of the subjects she's doing in school. Then when it comes to filling out the form to register for leaving cert exams just make sure to remove that subject and add physics. Would probably have to sit the exam at a different exam center but that would hardly be much of a problem. I'm sure if the school was anyway obliging they could accomdate this.

As far as I know you can sit whatever exams you want as long as you can arrange a test center to take it at...my sister did music on her own as an extra subject and did fine

DS22

We are looking at all solutions

BostonB

I did art outside of school. A bunch of us grouped together and found a teacher to teach us art & art history after school. So in theory I guess you could teach yourself and just register for the exam. I guess the best idea would be to find some like minded people.

mikhail

I've heard of girls taking a subject like that in the nearby boy's school or vice versa. I forget the details (in fact, I think it might have been a transition year thing, which would be easier), and I'm sure it's logistically tricky, but might be worth enquiring about if there's another school within a few minutes' cycle.

A group of people in my year studied Economic History, which the school didn't offer. They paid a teacher to offer the class out of hours; I presume there were enough of them to make it worth his while without being too expensive, but it wasn't a huge number; perhaps half a dozen.

If your daughter is quite strong academically, she might be able to study the subject on her own, with a grind once a fortnight or so to give her a little direction.

lilblackdress

I took up an extra subject when i did the leaving cert! I did geography outside of school on my own so i ended up doing 8 subjects. You can just do it alongside all the other subjects. They should still be able to do the exam in the school as long as they register as it is still an exam centre afterall! The only problem would be getting grinds i'd say!

DS22

Will look into that too thanks

Sid_Justice

change schools

lumpwood

If she's interested enough she can probably do it in her own time with a weekly grind to keep her on track or something as suggested in an earlier post. It is a bit of a tricky subject to learn on your own though.

In terms of engineering, leaving cert physics isn't an entry requirement as long as she has enough other science subjects instead. Obviously it helps alot to have done it in LC, but with most engineering courses here everyone is brought up to the same level in physics in first year anyways.

ApeXaviour

I'm pretty sure the practicals are mandatory in order to sit the exam, so yes I see the OP's dilemma (and share his frustration). You can't get by with just grinds and your own work like say with geography etc.

I'd suggest posting in the Leaving Certificate Forum. Some there would know the system pretty well, and since it's the same case for a lot of subjects (chemistry, ag science etc.) some might have figured a work around. At least they'd know if any schools do a 2 day practical course perhaps, to get it out of the way and allow her to study it on her own.

Edit:

lumpwood wrote: »

In terms of engineering, leaving cert physics isn't an entry requirement as long as she has enough other science subjects instead. Obviously it helps alot to have done it in LC, but with most engineering courses here everyone is brought up to the same level in physics in first year anyways.

While it's not a requirement, a lot of the abstract learning and ways of thinking taken from doing the course (just by pondering the problems given) would really help prepare one for such a degree. I'd rate its importance second only to maths.

mikhail

I would agree that while it's not mandatory, it's a very useful course for someone going into engineering.

I've no idea what practicals are required for LC physics these days (my recollection is blurring with the JC, and the course has changed anyway), but it's not a massive problem. There aren't all that many experiements (a dozen maybe?) and another local school may facilitate a grinds teacher in that regard. In particular, if the grinds teacher is currently a physics teacher, it's unlikely to be difficult.

umc

Glad to hear someone else has the same problem.We thought it would be easy but doesn't appear to be.Looked at some grind schools but they only seem to offer grinds not the whole course and of course the experiments have to be done somewhere.would be delighted to hear if you have got any additional info.

Gurgle

Sid_Justice wrote: »

change schools

Thats about it.

Worth noting that schools funding & teacher allocation depends on student numbers. The best thing any parent can do for our knowledge based economy in general and their child in particular is to send them to a proper school.

Any 19th century shìt-heap that doesn't provide for the full set of science subjects is not a proper school.

FISMA

MIT has an open course at
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/

You'll be able to view lectures on demand via video.

Have a look at the requirements for the leaving cert and try to match what Physics I and Physics II cover.

It's a pity she is not allowed to have a class a day to watch these.

The material covered is what is required of all engineering students in the states. Many students take courses in High School, called Advanced Placement (AP), and earn college credits in doing so. AP Physics C would be the equivalent of this course. Thus, these lectures are something that a bright/advanced student can cover.

Slan

Turtwig

As far as I understand it, you cannot sit the leaving without having performed the list of the mandatory experiments and logged them in a science notebook. Your daughter may get away without it, but if a dept inspector decides to randomly check up on her, she could be in a lot of trouble. Best changes schools imo.

ApeXaviour

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the practicals are mandatory in order to sit the exam, so yes I see the OP's dilemma (and share his frustration). You can't get by with just grinds and your own work like say with geography etc.

They werent in 2001 is that new?
we did no practicals

matrim

Could applied maths be an option? When I was doing the LC my school didn't have enough interest to put on a Physics class but I was able to do applied maths on my own outside of school, and one of the teachers helped me out when I needed it. It's not the same as physics but there is some crossover.

The Paws

You know the way some students do their repeats in a local area eg Cork - School of Commerce and maybe they might be able to do the physics subject - arranged for your daughter? Do check them out - I am sure they will help or sort somthing out.

Or
Ask the other school about the extra subject - I am sure a teacher there would be happy to help out.

If nothing works - do check to find out the course in the college your daughter is hoping to do - does it require leaving cert physics subject?

Good luck!

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

They werent in 2001 is that new?
we did no practicals

They actually were. SEC doesn't seem bother doing any inspections though.

chem

Hi OP. Best thing for you to do is get her to sit all easy subjects in her leaving. Anything she will get easy points for. I wanted to do Chemistry for my leaving, but not enough students to make up a class so it was scrapped. Ended up doing physics.

My point is she needs as many points as she can get, in any subject. Art, music etc can be easy to score points on. Every science degree starts from the basics in 1st year of uni. Its not like the UK, where your A levels are like the 1st year at uni here. What you do in leaving cert here, makes no difference to what you go on to study. Points are all that matters here.

Going it alone can be costly and if she fails it, it might put her off the subject.

mikhail

chem wrote: »

Hi OP. Best thing for you to do is get her to sit all easy subjects in her leaving. Anything she will get easy points for.

My point is she needs as many points as she can get, in any subject.

No, she needs as many points as the course she wants requires. That's the kind of thinking I'd leave to chancers who want to get into a course they're not really capable of. Most of the top engineering courses in the country were around the 400-450 bracket the last I looked. If she needs to boost her points total with easier subjects to get 400 points, she's not up to doing a good engineering course. If she wanted to do medicine or something else in the 550+ bracket, I might agree, but not here.

Every science degree starts from the basics in 1st year of uni. Its not like the UK, where your A levels are like the 1st year at uni here. What you do in leaving cert here, makes no difference to what you go on to study. Points are all that matters here.

My first year mathematical physics course was essentially the A level course in England. It was maybe 10% longer than the Leaving Cert applied maths course here. My first year physics course went beyond the Leaving Cert; and the Leaving syllabus has been simplified since. My first year chemistry course... well, I didn't do LC chemistry, but a friend claimed it was pretty similar.

I think I had nine subjects in first year. Those which were on the Leaving Cert were no shorter, and they had to be learned in the space of eight months instead of two years. I'd strongly recommend not following the advice of chem here.

lumpwood

Agree with Mikhail on this. Focusing on CAO points is a bad idea for most courses anyways, but definitely for engineering.If you can't manage 400 odd points without resorting to 'easy' subjects you'll have a tough time with many level 8 engineering courses.

From my own experience I did LC physics and mechanical engineering. I found the 1st year physics course to be identical to the LC course. However since in college 70% usually counts as an A/1.1 I think alot of people without physics got on fine. Bottom line is I don't think it would be the end of the world if your daughter missed out on the physics, especially if she did something like applied maths instead. It is defo worth looking around and seeing if someone can do the practicals with her though.

DS22

thanks so much for all your help

We placed my daughter in the Irish Institute of Education Friday evenings
They also do the experiments in an intensive course. It turns out most of the class are NOT doing physics in school so the lecturer is gearing the class on that basis.
It will cost a fortune but I am going to try this out till January and see how she gets on.
She will also keep up chemistry in school and make her decision early next year.
Thanks so much for all your advise:)

DS22

FISMA wrote: »

MIT has an open course at
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/

You'll be able to view lectures on demand via video.

Have a look at the requirements for the leaving cert and try to match what Physics I and Physics II cover.

It's a pity she is not allowed to have a class a day to watch these.

The material covered is what is required of all engineering students in the states. Many students take courses in High School, called Advanced Placement (AP), and earn college credits in doing so. AP Physics C would be the equivalent of this course. Thus, these lectures are something that a bright/advanced student can cover.

Slan

Thanks for that site its great

BrianG23

I'm a little late, but I did Physics last year. All I needed was grinds, I had a good grinds teacher I think. Since i'm a slacker I didn't pay much attention in class but I do have a profound interest in Physics which only grows when you actually start learning about it, I also got very interested in space. How you ask? I wondered what's at the centre of the Milky Way. I think things through so differantly now haha.

Anyway I got an E in ordinary in the mocks, I knew I would do that bad because I literally hadn't done a thing for the whole time, I got Grinds after that and got a D in higher lvl in the actual leaving, I guarantee you I barely studied at all. I would recommend getting grinds from about January. I got only 10 weeks and look how much I improved, Physics is so easy when you get though 1 on 1. When the teacher can explain things to you personally. I can recommend the grinds teacher I got, his name is Farid. Don't think you won't understand him because he's from Pakistan, he speaks perfect english. Seriously though, Class in school didn't help me get any grade. The grinds did. I'm currently doing Electronic Engineering in Tallaght IT, I chose to do engineering WAY to late, I only got in on the third round of the course placements, it's a shame I could have easily got into DIT (easier access) if I put that down in the CAO.

Also the best thing about engineering is you can start and should start at level 6. After you've done level 6 for 2 years the 3rd year can be level 7 and fourth year can be level 8 if you wish, btu you have the certificate for level 6 in our pocket after 2 years so if complications come up and you can't attend college anymore. You have a qualification.

Edit---Also, I didn't complete the Experiment copy, I never even handed it up, but it's not a hard thingto do, she could finish taking down the experiments in a week. That's one of the area's I failed at in the leaving, 120 marks (30%) are going from knowing the experiments which I didn't bother to learn.However there are sites which show all mandatory experiments for the leaving, she can just take them down off the sites.
Even with my laziness Igot into the course I wanted. As long as it is electronic engineering I am happy

DS22

Appreciate the reply. She is doing grinds at Leeson Street and loving it.
Like you she loves astononmy. Thanks for the encouragement

Fad

Teacher in the institute is absolutely brilliant.

NUI Maynooth offer a physics practical day where you can go down and do all the practicals, at some point in the year. I think the institute runs practicals for people doing the subjects outside of school, contact them about it?

DS22

will check out the practical day in Maynooth sounds great

JakeH1979

Where does she intend on doing her engineering course if its in an I.T then she wont have to do physics as they start from a common level assuming that noone on the course has done physics i.e you just have to get the points for the course. If its in a university then thats different as they may specify physics as an entry requirement. Applied maths is also a good subject for engineering and science courses.

DS22

She is looking to go to Trinity or UCD. She wants to look at scholarship oprions too so needs Physics

Scibelle

Here's the link to the NUI Maynooth experimental physics departments page regarding the leaving cert practicals and the contact information. They also provide a teachers manual to accompany the practicals - I'm sure if you explained your predicament they'd provide one for your daughter to use if needed.

http://physics.nuim.ie/schools/index.shtml

seamus

If there's another school nearby you may be able to arrange for her to do physics there. I know for our leaving cert there was an agreement with the all-girls school across the road where one of their girls came over and did physics with us.
A couple of the guys went over there to do one of the languages that we weren't offering. Italian or something.

DS22

Thanks for that, have to book in September for January next year.
She is just loving Physics in the Institute

Scibelle

Delighted to hear she's loving it at the moment. She'll have plenty of time to get really into the course before doing the practicals next Jan - if she comes across them in the meantime they'll act as an aid in helping her revise
Hope it all works out.

DS22

Im blessed shes a great girl loves science and maths Thanks for that

FirstHundred

That MIT physics course is serious business and miles ahead of the fairy stories that pass for physics in secondary school. The lecturer, Walter Lewin, makes it very exciting with lots of cool demonstrations in the lecture theatres. If she can handle that she'll be grand.

bobafro

I would really recommend getting your daughter to have a look at the applied maths course for the leaving certificate also. If she enjoys physics and maths then it will be a guranteed good grade for her. I covered the entire honours course outside of school in around 3 months of one grid a week and got a higher mark in it than both maths and physics.

Been involved in the schools program in the physics department at NUIM for the last 3 years and there are many students that come to do the practicals from both grind schools and independently. It's a fantastic bit of experience for €10

DS22

Yes I was on to the NUIM and they said I need to book in September that is a great course by them.
We have a maths teacher coming this week to discuss the applied maths.
So we are definetely looking at that option

DS22

Oh Bobafro where did you do the applied maths in 3 months btw

bobafro

DS22 wrote: »

Oh Bobafro where did you do the applied maths in 3 months btw

Did it mostly by myself out of the textbook. The layout of the exam is very good, 1 question per chapter. Had help from a teacher at another school in my locality once a week. I didn't do it in an institute or anything.

Minier81

Malty_T wrote: »

As far as I understand it, you cannot sit the leaving without having performed the list of the mandatory experiments and logged them in a science notebook. Your daughter may get away without it, but if a dept inspector decides to randomly check up on her, she could be in a lot of trouble. Best changes schools imo.

Yes labs are mandatory.

Doing Physics outside of school is not as easy as doing a non lab subject. As far as I know the School of Physics in NUIM used to run a lab week aimed at physics students in places like some of the grind schools in Dublin that don't do labs.

I did French completely outside of school for leaving cert and got on fine with it, but that wasn't as lab subject.....

Noo

Sorry i didnt read through all the posts so i apologise if i'm repeating what people have already said.

When i was in school a few years ago two of my friends had the exact same problem, they wanted to do physics but there was not enough interest to put on a physics class. They went to classes in the institute on lesson st (is that where it is?) on fridays. They had a talk with the physics teacher in the school and he agreed to help them when he was available, so they ended up with private classes. The school supported them in this and they were able to sit their exam in the school. I suggest she take classes outside of the school and have a talk with a physics teacher in the school...hopefully theyre as nice as our one.

I would recommend applied maths instead of physics for engineering though, I found it at lot more helpful for engineering (although this subject is probably more unlikely to be put on in the school).

Any chance the scholarship is the SFI womens scholarship?

ok now that i read the thread a bit more its great that your daughter is loving physics!
She in 5th year now (just like my two friends were) so I strongly suggests she talks to the physics teacher in her school. When the physics teacher agreed to help with labs and give tutorials to my friends (they went during religion and pointless classes like that) the school started to recognise their class. In 6th year the school officially recognised them and put a physics class in the timetable...just for the two of them, it was only about 2/3 classes a week but it was something and they continued to go to the institute. Hopefully her dedication wont go unnoticed by her school.

DS22

Thanks for that not a bad idea to talk to the Physics teacher at her school. They have a 6th year physics class. Maybe Ill look at the timetable and talk to the shcool see if the times overlap with religion etc and she can join them for practicals.
School does not do applied maths either. Honestly its like the dark ages of when I was a girl.

steddyeddy

Gurgle wrote: »

Thats about it.

Worth noting that schools funding & teacher allocation depends on student numbers. The best thing any parent can do for our knowledge based economy in general and their child in particular is to send them to a proper school.

Any 19th century shìt-heap that doesn't provide for the full set of science subjects is not a proper school.

+ 1000

steddyeddy

Noo wrote: »

Sorry i didnt read through all the posts so i apologise if i'm repeating what people have already said.

When i was in school a few years ago two of my friends had the exact same problem, they wanted to do physics but there was not enough interest to put on a physics class. They went to classes in the institute on lesson st (is that where it is?) on fridays. They had a talk with the physics teacher in the school and he agreed to help them when he was available, so they ended up with private classes. The school supported them in this and they were able to sit their exam in the school. I suggest she take classes outside of the school and have a talk with a physics teacher in the school...hopefully theyre as nice as our one.

I would recommend applied maths instead of physics for engineering though, I found it at lot more helpful for engineering (although this subject is probably more unlikely to be put on in the school).

Any chance the scholarship is the SFI womens scholarship?

ok now that i read the thread a bit more its great that your daughter is loving physics!
She in 5th year now (just like my two friends were) so I strongly suggests she talks to the physics teacher in her school. When the physics teacher agreed to help with labs and give tutorials to my friends (they went during religion and pointless classes like that) the school started to recognise their class. In 6th year the school officially recognised them and put a physics class in the timetable...just for the two of them, it was only about 2/3 classes a week but it was something and they continued to go to the institute. Hopefully her dedication wont go unnoticed by her school.

thats an excellent idea op, If our daughter could be taught that it would be extremely usefull when she went onto do engineering.

Exothermic

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/S68_04_EV_07.pdf

Check out the form P3. I know people who are repeating and who are doing Chemistry outside school, who have not done any experiments and were able to fill out that form and that was it. Sorted.

DS22

Just to update you all on that story

Daughter only did Physics one night a week with the Institute of Education on Leeson Street
She got a C1 in honours and is now happily studying Engineering at Trinity College Dublin

username123

DS22 wrote: »

Just to update you all on that story

Daughter only did Physics one night a week with the Institute of Education on Leeson Street
She got a C1 in honours and is now happily studying Engineering at Trinity College Dublin

Great update, glad she is enjoying it!

Cliona2012

Fair dues to her. I enjoyed physics and chemistry as part of Junior cert science, but never got to do them for the LC.