Sunday Independent: "Labour hint at FF deal - if Cowen goes"

Sulmac

Noticed this on the newspaper's website:

Labour hint at FF deal -- if Cowen goes
By DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter
Sunday August 29 2010

Senior figures within the Labour Party have said they would be prepared to go into government with Fianna Fail, as long as Brian Cowen was no longer leader.

Despite leader Eamon Gilmore's insistence that Labour would not share power with Fianna Fail, several frontbench members have said that if Brian Lenihan was in charge, they would deal with him.

Those claiming to favour a coalition with Fianna Fail said that it would be easier and more natural to work with them, as opposed to Fine Gael.

Labour will be the kingmakers at the next election and are at a record high in the opinion polls, and are expected to get over 30 seats.

Mr Gilmore has stated repeatedly that he would not do a power deal with Fianna Fail, but some of his most senior lieutenants have said they are not ruling it out.

All said they would not do a deal with Brian Cowen, but if he was no longer leader they would be prepared to go into government with Fianna Fail.

"It's clear many of us would work better with Fianna Fail than we would with Fine Gael. Our policies are closer and it's a better fit. We would waste an awful lot of time arguing with the Fine Gael lads which I think wouldn't happen with Fianna Fail, particularly under Lenihan," one member said.

Deputy leader Joan Burton said: "I know that some of our people feel that working with Fianna Fail would be easier than with Enda Kenny. But there's no way any of this would happen if Brian Cowen was still there. My own view is that it's time for a change and the people want Fianna Fail out."

Brendan Howlin said yesterday that Labour will go to the people on its own platform.

"I think the people are ready to reject Fianna Fail, but we are going to the polls on our own agenda. We will be seeking to maximise Labour's influence, whether it's Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, but I get a clear sense that the people want Fianna Fail out."

- DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter

Independent.ie

I had to chuckle at the bit in bold. Labour and Fine Gael have almost identical proposals on some issues (like constitutional reform and a "Strategic Investment Bank" [Labour]/"National Recovery Bank" [Fine Gael]) and comparable proposals on issues like health (universal health insurance) and unemployment schemes (investment in certain types of infrastructure like broadband, water and electricity). The only major difference is the banking crisis - Labour want(ed?) nationalisation while Fine Gael wanted a "good bank" set up instead of NAMA; and third-level funding - Labour opposed to any type of fees, while Fine Gael support a graduate contribution through the PRSI system. There are also some smaller issues, but compromise is the general idea of politics.

Your move now, Eamon.

Cavehill Red

More Sindo spin and nonsense.
This is an attempt to smear Labour by the looks of things. There's no chance of Fianna Fail getting back into power next time out, Clown or no Clown.
After all, they'll be the third or fourth biggest party.

Riddle101

Like I always say. I'll wait and see before I judge

The Raven.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

More Sindo spin and nonsense.
This is an attempt to smear Labour by the looks of things. There's no chance of Fianna Fail getting back into power next time out, Clown or no Clown.
After all, they'll be the third or fourth biggest party.

I really hope you are right. Otherwise it would be another party down the drain. Fianna Fail have already destroyed two parties. Does the Labour Party not realize that it would be political suicide to entertain such a notion?

Voting for parties under the current system is like playing Russian roulette. I gave the Green Party a second preference vote the last time out of concern for environmental and heritage issues. I never dreamt that they would let us down by going into government with a corrupt and incompetent party such as Fianna Fail. Is it any wonder that a large percentage of Irish people don't bother to vote?

I find the voting system somewhat confusing. How do we avoid inadvertently helping to put the wrong party in power? Is there a simple solution?

Sierra Oscar

The Raven. wrote: »

I find the voting system somewhat confusing. How do we avoid inadvertently helping to put the wrong party in power? Is there a simple solution?

Only give a first preference, I guess?

PeterIanStaker

More bull from the Spindo, a incoherent rag, the fact that 1)it sells copy and 2) there are still FF voters, make me genuinely despair.

The Raven.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Only give a first preference, I guess?

Thanks. That is what I have decided to do next time. However, if one were to give a first preference vote only to either Fine Gael or Labour and they subsequently went into government with Fianna Fail, then it would be extremely frustrating.

I have visions of these two parties promising, prior to elections, that they won't go into government with Fianna Fail, and then doing the exact opposite once they have the votes. There has to be some solution to this.

Liam Byrne

The Raven. wrote: »

I have visions of these two parties promising, prior to elections, that they won't go into government with Fianna Fail, and then doing the exact opposite once they have the votes. There has to be some solution to this.

Following The Green's "it looks like a promise but it isn't" I'll be getting any candidate that wants my vote to sign a declaration that they will not be going into coalition with FF, even if their party chooses to do so.

bmaxi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Following The Green's "it looks like a promise but it isn't" I'll be getting any candidate that wants my vote to sign a declaration that they will not be going into coalition with FF, even if their party chooses to do so.

I'm afraid, even if you get a candidate to sign in blood, on the immortal souls of all his nearest and dearest, what the party whip demands, they will do.
To honour such a commitment, a politician would have to have ethics. Ethics would demand, among other things, an end to the current system of thievery and chicanery pertaining in Leinster House, so no chance.

Liam Byrne

bmaxi wrote: »

I'm afraid, even if you get a candidate to sign in blood, on the immortal souls of all his nearest and dearest, what the party whip demands, they will do.
To honour such a commitment, a politician would have to have ethics. Ethics would demand, among other things, an end to the current system of thievery and chicanery pertaining in Leinster House, so no chance.

Ah but part of the plan is to send the signed letter to the newspapers as I leave the country forever.......

The Star [ ok - I know I said "newspapers" earlier ] could do a nice big headline "Lying B**tard" with a photo of the accompanying liar.

bmaxi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah but part of the plan is to send the signed letter to the newspapers as I leave the country forever.......

The Star [ ok - I know I said "newspapers" earlier ] could do a nice big headline "Lying B**tard" with a photo of the accompanying liar.

To what end? Are you seriously hoping to embarrass one of these fcukers?
Think Callely and multiply.

The Raven.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah but part of the plan is to send the signed letter to the newspapers as I leave the country forever.......

The Star [ ok - I know I said "newspapers" earlier ] could do a nice big headline "Lying B**tard" with a photo of the accompanying liar.

Please don't go.

Byron85

I'm not in the least surprised by this. Labour are a non-entity. The only thing they are good at is taking full advantage of ministerial and other related expenses. They're no better than Fianna Fáil.

If FF get 50 seats in 2012,they will have done well.
Labour will get in the low 30's at best as they being weak in many constituencies will struggle as poll highs won't help weaker candidates.

So really an FF/Lab alliance is a red herring.

The Sindo are cleverly promoting it as a possibility in the hope it will weaken labour.
FG barring something unforeseen should end up within the 65 to 75 range,meaning they only need 22 labour seats or less.

Expect the Sindo and others to be adding SF to the imaginary FF/Lab pact soon to scare the electorate off them too and to hurt labour more.
Given recent SF/Lab senate pacts,that scenario will be easy to paint.
If O'reilly's plan works it should cockblock the devilish alliance by boostng FG numbers towards the mid 70's.

gandalf

This is a non story. The pasting they got last time they went into Government with FF still haunts their collective memory. There is a snowballs chance in hell that they will go into Government with FF come the next election.

Looks like the Sindo is back supporting the Soldiers of Destiny/Corruption again.

The_Minister

gandalf wrote: »

This is a non story. The pasting they got last time they went into Government with FF still haunts their collective memory. There is a snowballs chance in hell that they will go into Government with FF come the next election.

Looks like the Sindo is back supporting the Soldiers of Destiny/Corruption again.

Apparently (I've been told by people sadder more mathmatically inclined than I) if you examine the figures for that election, then what happened was that FF voters didn't give a preference to Labour, who rely strongly on FF transfers (they get more from FF than FG).

So it wasn't going in that hurt them, it was going out.

Scofflaw

gandalf wrote: »

This is a non story. The pasting they got last time they went into Government with FF still haunts their collective memory. There is a snowballs chance in hell that they will go into Government with FF come the next election.

Looks like the Sindo is back supporting the Soldiers of Destiny/Corruption again.

I'd say we had early warning of that when the Indo started to blame everything on the Greens. And it's amazing what people will buy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently (I've been told by people sadder more mathmatically inclined than I) if you examine the figures for that election, then what happened was that FF voters didn't give a preference to Labour, who rely strongly on FF transfers (they get more from FF than FG).

So it wasn't going in that hurt them, it was going out.

There are also people who simply prefer political parties not to collapse the government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gandalf

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd say we had early warning of that when the Indo started to blame everything on the Greens. And it's amazing what people will buy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well tbh the Greens are the ones keeping this mess on the road so whilst I agree that the Sindo is spreading muck it is more to do with the fact that John Gormley and company are acting as facilitators to FF staying in power that is directing the peoples ire towards them.

gandalf

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently (I've been told by people sadder more mathmatically inclined than I) if you examine the figures for that election, then what happened was that FF voters didn't give a preference to Labour, who rely strongly on FF transfers (they get more from FF than FG).

So it wasn't going in that hurt them, it was going out.

I canvassed for Labour during that election campaign and they picked up votes because people wanted FF out of Government. Nearly every household I called into said this with the exception of the die hard FF supporters who accused us of wanting to bring in abortion and other such emotive claptrap.

Therefore when they did go into Government with the very party that most people wanted out of power they were going to get a severe beating from the electorate next time, which they did!. The Greens have lined themselves up for a worse beating because of the expectation (rightly or wrongly) that a lot of people had that they would not go into Government with FF.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

There are also people who simply prefer political parties not to collapse the government.

They would be few and far between, since people's preference is to collapse a corrupt and incompetent government that has unnecessarily cost them billions.

Whatever lies were told about NAMA & Anglo that made them barely tolerable (to make them truly tolerable there would have had to be no secrecy) the figures that get worse every time have meant that there is no longer an argument that a different solution would have cost "more", because there is defineable cost to Anglo & NAMA, and therefore any definition of "more" is impossible.

As for the Sindo's article itself; well, I gave up buying the Sindo when they started publishing lies and conjecture about Limerick, so I wouldn't even believe the date at the top of the page in that rag.

However I would hope and pray that Labour have more cop-on than even considering the option of going in with FF.

If we were to believe all of the smears that suggest FG, and then Labour, are likely to follow the Greens into lying down with the most corrupt and incompetent party in history, we may as well forget about 2012 and emigrate now.

Scofflaw

gandalf wrote: »

Well tbh the Greens are the ones keeping this mess on the road so whilst I agree that the Sindo is spreading muck it is more to do with the fact that John Gormley and company are acting as facilitators to FF staying in power that is directing the peoples ire towards them.

Mm-hm.

amused,
Scofflaw

gandalf

You may be amused Scofflaw unfortunately the majority in this country aren't :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They would be few and far between, since people's preference is to collapse a corrupt and incompetent government that has unnecessarily cost them billions.

While I suspect neither of us can prove our opinions, I don't think that's the case at all. I seem to recall we had some marches some time back which were supposed to be about getting the government out, and they dwindled away very quickly. We don't have the media yelling for it, and they'll yell for what sells. I don't even see it around the place, despite the grumbling. Most people seem willing to wait for 2012, and I don't think anyone but Fine Gael are confident that 2012 will be Fine Gael's turn in the sun - and they thought that about 2007.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever lies were told about NAMA & Anglo that made them barely tolerable (to make them truly tolerable there would have had to be no secrecy) the figures that get worse every time have meant that there is no longer an argument that a different solution would have cost "more", because there is defineable cost to Anglo & NAMA, and therefore any definition of "more" is impossible.

As for the Sindo's article itself; well, I gave up buying the Sindo when they started publishing lies and conjecture about Limerick, so I wouldn't even believe the date at the top of the page in that rag.

However I would hope and pray that Labour have more cop-on than even considering the option of going in with FF.

If we were to believe all of the smears that suggest FG, and then Labour, are likely to follow the Greens into lying down with the most corrupt and incompetent party in history, we may as well forget about 2012 and emigrate now.

Personally, while I doubt the Sindo story is necessarily true, I don't doubt that Labour could hold their noses if it was the only route into government, and I somehow doubt that if Labour were the king-makers in 2012 they'd only talk to Fine Gael. Political parties exist to go into government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Personally, while I doubt the Sindo story is necessarily true, I don't doubt that Labour could hold their noses if it was the only route into government, and I somehow doubt that if Labour were the king-makers in 2012 they'd only talk to Fine Gael. Political parties exist to go into government.

Well, as I've outlined before, once bitten, twice shy, and I've also stated categorically that I do not do double-standards; I've a home and an OK life in this country, and I don't want to move, but if ANY of the other political parties decide that corruption is OK, then there's no point living in this country.

Alternatively, of course, since I was the type of person - a realist - that Ahern singled out in his infamous speech, maybe I could take that route out of the country instead.

Because if this country wants to wallow in its corruption, then it can do so - one way or the other - without me.

hallelujajordan

Scofflaw wrote: »

Personally, while I doubt the Sindo story is necessarily true, I don't doubt that Labour could hold their noses if it was the only route into government, and I somehow doubt that if Labour were the king-makers in 2012 they'd only talk to Fine Gael. Political parties exist to go into government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Precisely . . . i would even take it a step further and say that it is every elected TD's obligation to try to form a stable government. The Greens realised that after the last election and worked out a way to make it work . .

FG and LAB have been hanging around on the opposition benches for a long time now and they still have not found a way to make it work. I worry about their ability to form a stable government. . .

Note also that this story is predicated on Lenihan being the leader of FF after the next election. Lenihan is already well respected and by 2012 we will have a much better view on how well his economic policies have worked. If (and I accept its an if) the economy is picking up by then, FF may do better than we currently expect and it will be reasonably easy for Gilmore to do business with Lenihan.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Precisely . . . i would even take it a step further and say that it is every elected TD's obligation to try to form a stable government.

If you're going to go down that route, then it's also every elected TD's obligation to form a competent, fair and ethical government in which con-men who claim massive "expenses" and spout libel are kicked out.

It's also every elected TD's obligation to ensure that constituents are represented, and to act for the good of the country.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Note also that this story is predicated on Lenihan being the leader of FF after the next election. Lenihan is already well respected....

By some, maybe. Probably depends on their occupation, or whether they still have one.

Pete_Cavan

Labour will be the kingmakers at the next election and are at a record high in the opinion polls, and are expected to get over 30 seats.

I wouldnt pay too much notice to opinion polls now because when election time rolls round and I doubt Labour will get as many seats as the polls suggest. When campaigning starts it will be very easy for the other parties to undermine Labour because of their ties to the unions and their opposition to cutting public sector wages and social welfare payments. It is easy for Labour to gain support now by criticising government policies but they will be found out when their own policies are scrutinised. I cant see anybody who is working every hour God sends and is struggling to pay the mortgage/pay for child care/etc voting for a party who will not cut public sector pay and social welfare. I very much doubt they will get as many seats as the article suggests.

changes

I'm planning to vote labour next election, but if they don't make it clear that they won't go into govt with FF then i'll vote FG.

hallelujajordan

changes wrote: »

I'm planning to vote labour next election, but if they don't make it clear that they won't go into govt with FF then i'll vote FG.

Gilmore has already made that clear, are you saying you dont believe him ?

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Gilmore has already made that clear, are you saying you dont believe him ?

No he hasn't :rolleyes:!

We won't go into coalition with FF -- Gilmore

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/we-wont-go-into-coalition-with-ff--gilmore-1741486.html

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

No he hasn't :rolleyes:!

We won't go into coalition with FF -- Gilmore

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/we-wont-go-into-coalition-with-ff--gilmore-1741486.html

that's precisely what I was saying . . clearly this is not enough for @changes as he is still waiting for some reassurance. .

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

that's precisely what I was saying . . clearly this is not enough for @changes as he is still waiting for some reassurance. .

Sorry! My mistake.

bijapos

What I find interesting about that article is that neither Burton or Howlin rejected FF outright, both have left the option open.

Gilmore has rejected FF on a number of occasions, also in a TV interview with (I think) Brian Dobson.

changes

Yeah if he said it then i'm happy with that..... should have known the sunday independant is full of tripe.

PeterIanStaker

Its funny how the IQ's plummet from the weekday Indo (which is still a rag) to the Sindo. Well, its not ha-ha funny its more painful.

The Raven.

Eamon Gilmore needs to come out and make a strong and unequivocal statement directly to the public, on television, radio, on his website homepage and Facebook, not merely quoted in a newspaper, that the Labour Party will not go in to government with Fianna Fail. Otherwise doubts will remain and his party will lose votes.

irishh_bob

in normal times , thier would be advantages for labour in forming a goverment with fianna fail , they would get a lot more ministerial seats and have more influence in terms of policy provision , while its seldom said , labour are much closer to fianna fail than fine gael in policy terms , brian cowen is a centre left politician so i can see how he and gilmore would get but theese are not normal times and the fianna fail brand is absolutley toxic so labour wont want anywhere near such a coupling