Belief in alternative therapies.

goingpostal

I have a friend who is an atheist. It was him who encouraged me to abandon the last vestiges of my belief in a personal god and come out of the closet as a true-blue atheist. However he has some deeply strange beliefs when it comes to some alternative therapies, for example, anti-vax, nutritionism, vitamin pills curing everything, big pharma conspiracies, swine flu hoax etc. To my mind, these beliefs are very similar to religious beliefs, in their persistence in the face of all the evidence, and how trying to show that person the evidence, only makes them cling to those beliefs even more tightly. Has anyone here any experience with dealing with someone like this? I suppose that all this proves is that atheism means disbelief in god or gods and nothing else, and that we can have other mental blind spots when it comes to other issues.

TheReverend

goingpostal wrote: »

I have a friend who is an atheist. It was him who encouraged me to abandon the last vestiges of my belief in a personal god and come out of the closet as a true-blue atheist. However he has some deeply strange beliefs when it comes to some alternative therapies, for example, anti-vax, nutritionism, vitamin pills curing everything, big pharma conspiracies, swine flu hoax etc. To my mind, these beliefs are very similar to religious beliefs, in their persistence in the face of all the evidence, and how trying to show that person the evidence, only makes them cling to those beliefs even more tightly. Has anyone here any experience with dealing with someone like this? I suppose that all this proves is that atheism means disbelief in god or gods and nothing else, and that we can have other mental blind spots when it comes to other issues.

Your friend sounds like a bit of an idiot, show him proof that anti-vax is a load of ****e just as he told you about god and stuff.

Waking-Dreams

In my experience, so take it as just that, I find that people who are religious attribute many cures to their god. Where you find people who say “I'm not religious, I'm spiritual” it tends to be a belief in alternative therapies, crystals, Reiki, etc. Certainly in the Spirituality forum here, there appears to plenty of people who think there is something to healing yourself with energy (Reiki). “Reiki is a natural form of energy healing, using varying frequencies of energy to heal at all levels.”

That said, atheists aren't immune to weird beliefs either. But I'd wager, because they tend to think more critically of there being no sky fairy, that leads them to question a lot of other things too. I mean, once you've gotten over the hurdle that a god doesn't exist and the universe doesn't conform to human ambition, it's not much of a stretch to go one further and see through all the new age stuff too.

alex73

When the Vatican needs to validate a miracle, like a terminally ill cancer cured attributed to intercession of a saint, they will usally go to a doctor who is not a catholic or even religious. If the cure stands up to the rigour of non religious scrutiny then its said to be a miracle.
.. Personally, and I do believe in God, I don't agree that miracles are a sign of his existence, but it also shows that science and reason can't explain everything.

Alternative therapies I think are a waste of money and a drain on the finances of the vulnerable.

However I once say a priest but a piece of Padre Pios clothing on a person and the person (given 3 months to live) lived for 10 years.. Personal conviction? Some people who believe seem to have a stronger ability to overcome illness.

But I draw the line on others taking abuse on ill people for their own financial gain. If somebody really believes in their therapy they should offer it free... if it cures the person 100% then the person can pay.

fatmammycat

I don't believe in miracles at all. I also think science does a pretty decent job of explaining most things and what it cannot does not automatically leave a handy gap where 'goddidit' slots in.
Most 'miracles' are ridiculous woo-laden plop. Person survives crash- miracle. Person sick gets better - miracle. Tuesday follows Monday- miracle. Anecdotal story without verification that someone's uncle once heard from someone's neighbour about a person going to Lourdes in a wheel chair that jumped up and did a jig yet was never mentioned in the media- miracle.
I don't believe in a deity anyway, but the idea of a personal god sitting on high playing miracle roulette with people's lives is more than laughable.

5uspect

You need to get your friend a copy of Bad Science.

If he still believes in that nonsense after reading it he's deluded.

Here is Dr. Goldacre in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs

robindch

goingpostal wrote: »

Has anyone here any experience with dealing with someone like this?

Looks like your friend has bought into all the health-related PCT's going, and in my experience, there's really not much you can do other than to leave them at it. Trying to reason with them certainly won't achieve anything -- was it Heinlein who said "Never try to teach a sheep to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the sheep"?

Best you can probably do is any time that the topics come up, just explain politely that you're not interested. But that can get very wearing very quickly if the person -- like many religious fundamentalists -- keeps on bringing their favorite horreurs-de-la-semaine into every conversation.

BTW, a new PCT in just yesterday! Glen Beck, currently the most popular extreme right-wing nutter on US telly, is holding a mass rally, wittily entitled "Restoring Honor", at the Lincoln Memorial in in Washington tomorrow. Unfortunately, a few malicious people have edited the google maps so that a search for the Lincoln memorial returns the FDR memorial instead, a few hundred yards away. Never mind that both memorials are clearly labelled, both visible on the same map, both visible from each other and only one of the two will be playing host to tens of thousands of check-shirted, spittle-flecked xenophobes. On the contrary, this is evidence of a it's a left-wing conspiracy in google, I tell you!

MagicMarker

Atheists can be idiots too ya know!

sink

5uspect wrote: »

You need to get your friend a copy of Bad Science.

If he still believes in that nonsense after reading it he's deluded.

Here is Dr. Goldacre in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs

His blog is also pretty good. He mainly post up the articles he writes for the Guardian.

http://www.badscience.net/

amacachi

TBH the lines between medicine and alternative medicine are getting more and more blurred it seems to me. The NHS in Britain pays for Homeopathy ffs. America mainstream medicine has a similar problem to the alternative rubbish too, everyone involved seems to have agreed to make sure that they sell something no matter what.

I've too much of a beef with medicine in general tbh for this thread alone. :pac:
Also someone I'm acquainted with is doing a course in something or other with a hocus pocus name and asked me to buy the books for it online. Those books are now forever linked to my name somewhere in Amazon's database.

As someone else said though, atheists can be idiots too.

Zillah

alex73 wrote: »

When the Vatican needs to validate a miracle, like a terminally ill cancer cured attributed to intercession of a saint, they will usally go to a doctor who is not a catholic or even religious. If the cure stands up to the rigour of non religious scrutiny then its said to be a miracle.
.. Personally, and I do believe in God, I don't agree that miracles are a sign of his existence, but it also shows that science and reason can't explain everything.

Could you link to a single example of a miracle cure validated by a non-Catholic doctor please?

5uspect

sink wrote: »

His blog is also pretty good. He mainly post up the articles he writes for the Guardian.

http://www.badscience.net/

Yeah, it's great.
He also has a secondary blog for other stuff:
http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/

MagicMarker

alex73 wrote: »

Some people who believe seem to have a stronger ability to overcome illness.

You have a knack for making unsubstantiated statements don't ya?

goingpostal

goingpostal wrote: »

I have a friend who is an atheist. It was him who encouraged me to abandon the last vestiges of my belief in a personal god and come out of the closet as a true-blue atheist. However he has some deeply strange beliefs when it comes to some alternative therapies, for example, anti-vax, nutritionism, vitamin pills curing everything, big pharma conspiracies, swine flu hoax etc. To my mind, these beliefs are very similar to religious beliefs, in their persistence in the face of all the evidence, and how trying to show that person the evidence, only makes them cling to those beliefs even more tightly. Has anyone here any experience with dealing with someone like this? I suppose that all this proves is that atheism means disbelief in god or gods and nothing else, and that we can have other mental blind spots when it comes to other issues.

Is your friend Bill Maher?

goingpostal

5uspect wrote: »

You need to get your friend a copy of Bad Science.

If he still believes in that nonsense after reading it he's deluded.

Here is Dr. Goldacre in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs

I love that guy. I would have his babies if it was biologically possible. I follow his blog 'religiously' too. He really opened my eyes to what a load of old rubbish most alternative therapies are. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial/dp/0552157627/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283015151&sr=8-1 This book is top class too, really comprehensive, not as much fun as Bad Science, but utterly devastating to all the empty claims of most alternative therapists. I sent him the links for these books the other night, but like other people have said, I don't think he wants to change his mind, he seems to be happy believing in all this stuff, it is probably best to just let him at it. He gets really agitated when I try to tell him what a charlatan and menace Patrick Holford is. Trouble is, I was very taken in by a lot of this stuff at one stage too, so my credibility might not be 100%.

5uspect

goingpostal wrote: »

I love that guy. I would have his babies if it was biologically possible. I follow his blog 'religiously' too. He really opened my eyes to what a load of old rubbish most alternative therapies are. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial/dp/0552157627/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283015151&sr=8-1 This book is top class too, really comprehensive, not as much fun as Bad Science, but utterly devastating to all the empty claims of most alternative therapists. I sent him the links for these books the other night, but like other people have said, I don't think he wants to change his mind, he seems to be happy believing in all this stuff, it is probably best to just let him at it. He gets really agitated when I try to tell him what a charlatan and menace Patrick Holford is. Trouble is, I was very taken in by a lot of this stuff at one stage too, so my credibility might not be 100%.

I saw that book over in a London bookshop recently. Wanted to pick it up but I had flats to hunt.

Your mate may be beyond help. You could just slag him off for not believing in Jesus, since he believes such other muck. Sometimes ridicule works wonders.

mehfesto

Years ago, everything was an alternative therapy. Then we tested it all and the stuff that ACTUALLY WORKED became 'medicine'...

-Dara O'Briain.

And if anyone can show me one example in the history of the world of a single
Homeopathic Practitioner who has been able to prove under reasonable experimental conditions that solutions made of infinitely tiny particles of good stuff dissolved repeatedly into relatively huge quantities of water has a consistently higher medicinal value <> than a similarly administered placebo

-Tim Minchin
('if you open you mind too much your brain might fall out (take my wife))

Scanlas The 2nd

I'm an atheist and Im spiritual (most of the time). What spirituality is being present and not being possessed by your thoughts and ego.

People say religion is the root of all evil, but it's not, the ego comes close though.