People of Ireland

Strata

I've just finished reading a thread in AH about reporting someone to the authorities for social welfare fraud.

I was a bit shocked to be honest at the amount of people who wouldn't (for such immature reasons as they didn't want to be a snitch and "it has nothing to do with me") and it got me thinking: are we screwed as a country? Our greed and short-sightedness was evident during the boom years and even now we have the unions (still strongly supported) demanding more. We accept ridiculously inept politicians without protest. We accept pay rises to the Board of Directors of a failed bank.

Sometimes I wonder is there a future for Ireland if that is the mentality of her inhabitants!

looksee

And at the next election it will be the same old same old....Except for the independents who will come out of the woodwork to help divide and conquer.

And before anyone else says it, can I point out that the Irish can't help being anti authoritarian and devious, it was a direct result of invasion/800 years/landlords/being down-trodden, up until last week. It's not their fault.

metrovelvet

I find it remarkable that three of Ireland's great heroes all had aspergers, Emmet, Pearse and DeValera. What does that say?

Denerick

looksee wrote: »

And before anyone else says it, can I point out that the Irish can't help being anti authoritarian and devious, it was a direct result of invasion/800 years/landlords/being down-trodden, up until last week. It's not their fault.

I assume thats a joke? If not, then it takes a serious dose of privilege to assume that the Irish are so exceptional. Every other species of man as a collective group has witnessed repression and 'being down trodden' at some stage. The irish peasant had more in common with the English peasant than he did with the transported African slave; I really don't know where to begin with this attitude. Unfortunately its endemic in this nation of whingers.

Denerick

metrovelvet wrote: »

I find it remarkable that three of Ireland's great heroes all had aspergers, Emmet, Pearse and DeValera. What does that say?

Lol! Where are you getting asperger's from???

Some have previously said that Robert Emmet had asperger's, but really I don't think it can be really seriously believed. De Valera certainly did not have the condition.

You may well be right about Pearse though, his personality very closely matches someone with asperger's...

prinz

Strata wrote: »

I've just finished reading a thread in AH about reporting someone to the authorities for social welfare fraud. I was a bit shocked to be honest at the amount of people who wouldn't (for such immature reasons as they didn't want to be a snitch and "it has nothing to do with me") and it got me thinking: are we screwed as a country? Our greed and short-sightedness was evident during the boom years and even now we have the unions (still strongly supported) demanding more.

The lack of a social responsibility is what screws Ireland and will continue to do so. IMO it's getting increasingly worse as abdication of personal responsibility becomes more common and individualism is valued at the expense of a social obligation.

Strata

prinz wrote: »

The lack of a social responsibility is what screws Ireland and will continue to do so. IMO it's getting increasingly worse as abdication of personal responsibility becomes more common and individualism is valued at the expense of a social obligation.

Is it exclusively Irish I wonder?

metrovelvet

Denerick wrote: »

Lol! Where are you getting asperger's from???

Some have previously said that Robert Emmet had asperger's, but really I don't think it can be really seriously believed. De Valera certainly did not have the condition.

You may well be right about Pearse though, his personality very closely matches someone with asperger's...

from a book called "Unstoppable Brilliance: Irish Geniuses and Aspergers." Very interesting.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unstoppable-Brilliance-Geniuses-Aspergers-Syndrome/dp/1905483287

But it did get me thinking about what it says about a nation who has three aspergers sufferers as its heroes.

Denerick

metrovelvet wrote: »

But it did get me thinking about what it says about a nation who has three aspergers sufferers as its heroes.

That we take an enlightened stance on mental illness?

prinz

Strata wrote: »

Is it exclusively Irish I wonder?

No, but IMO it's definitely more prevalent in the Anglo-Saxon world, although nothing to do with the 'being down trodden for 800 years crap'. Ireland is being held back massively by it.

metrovelvet wrote: »

But it did get me thinking about what it says about a nation who has three aspergers sufferers as its heroes.

DeValera.....hero.....

looksee

Denerick wrote: »

I assume thats a joke? If not, then it takes a serious dose of privilege to assume that the Irish are so exceptional. Every other species of man as a collective group has witnessed repression and 'being down trodden' at some stage. The irish peasant had more in common with the English peasant than he did with the transported African slave; I really don't know where to begin with this attitude. Unfortunately its endemic in this nation of whingers.

It wasn't entirely a joke. I just got subjected yesterday (not on Boards) to yet another bout of 'it's all the fault of the brits that we have (insert whatever problem) and since you are a brit, it must be your fault'. Having lived in Ireland nearly 40 years I have lived here longer than most people in chat rooms and forums. I was also told that 'They never did anything for us' this from someone who had had 3 children get their 3rd level education in England. Sorry, I apologise, this is an off-topic rant, I was irritated.

Back to the subject.

prinz

looksee wrote: »

It wasn't entirely a joke. I just got subjected yesterday (not on Boards) to yet another bout of 'it's all the fault of the brits that we have (insert whatever problem) and since you are a brit, it must be your fault'. Having lived in Ireland nearly 40 years I have lived here longer than most people in chat rooms and forums. I was also told that 'They never did anything for us' this from someone who had had 3 children get their 3rd level education in England. Sorry, I apologise, this is an off-topic rant, I was irritated..

A lot people here will blame anyone but themselves. Off-loading the blame for our own mess on the Brits is a prime example. It's not the fault of the Brits, or of 800 years, or of landlords. That's a cop out.

Fuinseog

Strata wrote: »

I've just finished reading a thread in AH about reporting someone to the authorities for social welfare fraud.

I was a bit shocked to be honest at the amount of people who wouldn't (for such immature reasons as they didn't want to be a snitch and "it has nothing to do with me") and it got me thinking: are we screwed as a country? Our greed and short-sightedness was evident during the boom years and even now we have the unions (still strongly supported) demanding more. We accept ridiculously inept politicians without protest. We accept pay rises to the Board of Directors of a failed bank.

Sometimes I wonder is there a future for Ireland if that is the mentality of her inhabitants!

it has always been like this and we still survive.cheating and eing dishonest is being openly practiced y our leaders so many citiyens think why they should be honest in their day to day dealings. honesty and correctness is linked to morality which in turn is linked to religion and we are now post god

I don't really understand why so many Irish people believe that Ireland is so much different than the rest of Europe, never mind about the rest of the world. We have governmental corruption in Ireland? Wooptie-do so too do most countries. We have fraud on many organisational levels? Try checking the business sections for the international papers for some context. We have repeat offenders walzing through our Justice system? So do most countries with similar social constructs in place.

Simply put we're all lazy buggers. If we, as a people, got off our collective arses, and stopped waiting for someone else to fix things, then we might get that country we believe we should have. But that would require making a choice. Making a stand on a subject. Being criticised by other countries for taking a different approach to problems. Which, frankly, I don't see likely. We still have the joke that Ireland stays 5-10 years behind the UK so that we can see what works for them before we try it ourselves... :rolleyes:

prinz

Deleted User wrote: »

We still have the joke that Ireland stays 5-10 years behind the UK so that we can see what works for them before we try it ourselves... :rolleyes:

+1, the problems increase when we see something that has backfired in some places and still there are people rushing headlong to have them implemented here.

prinz

prinz wrote: »

+1, the problems increase when we see something that has backfired in some places and still there are people rushing headlong to have them implemented here.

Or since they haven't worked in other places... then Ireland should never even consider applying our own solution to the problem. I've noticed a habit in Ireland to assume that if other countries have failed in something, then how dare we attempt the same... after all, we're going to fail just like everyone else. Where is our confidence? Where is our pride in our own accomplishments?

Prof.Badass

Strata wrote: »

I've just finished reading a thread in AH about reporting someone to the authorities for social welfare fraud.

I was a bit shocked to be honest at the amount of people who wouldn't (for such immature reasons as they didn't want to be a snitch and "it has nothing to do with me") and it got me thinking: are we screwed as a country? Our greed and short-sightedness was evident during the boom years and even now we have the unions (still strongly supported) demanding more. We accept ridiculously inept politicians without protest. We accept pay rises to the Board of Directors of a failed bank.

Sometimes I wonder is there a future for Ireland if that is the mentality of her inhabitants!

It's human nature for people to not help the authorities against one of their peers. It may not be entirely rational, but as far as evolutionary emotional tendencies go, imo it does more good than bad.

Would you rather a system where we are excessively submissive towards authorities :eek:?

Personally it warms my heart that we have this anti-authoritarian tendency within us (as unneccesary authority is the enemy of equality). Obviously we should learn to think rationally about things and in the instance of welfare cheats perhaps they should be reported (unlike underage drinking or petty vandalism, the perpetrator is not only scoring a point against the authorities but also scoring a point against their peers who rely on the welfare system).

If a friend of mine was a welfare cheat I'd probably give them a chance to stop what they're doing before reporting them (which I'd like to think I would do if they didn't stop). Cheating the state's welfare system is wrong, but betraying the trust of friendship is also wrong imo.

I don't think what i mentioned above is in any way related to our political laziness. I think that's just general complacency due to the fact we still feel lucky to have what we have. Had the celtic tiger never happened we'd be out on the streets for sure .

looksee

Prof.Badass wrote: »

Personally it warms my heart that we have this anti-authoritarian tendency within us (as unneccesary authority is the enemy of equality). Obviously we should learn to think rationally about things and in the instance of welfare cheats perhaps they should be reported (unlike underage drinking or petty vandalism, the perpetrator is not only scoring a point against the authorities but also scoring a point against their peers who rely on the welfare system).

Would you like to give us some examples of 'unnecessary authority'? These 'authorities' that you want us to rebel against are there at our behest and on our behalf.

If we think the rules are inappropriate we should be changing them, not defying them. You might think a rule is excessive, but 10 other people might think it is reasonable. Who's opinion do we go with before deciding whether to defy it.

If someone vandalises something that our money has paid for, how is he not scoring a point against the rest of society? Why is it ok to 'score a point' against the authorities? Its a very immature attitude. You defy your parents and your teachers when you are a child, (by, for example drinking under age). You are learning what are the boundaries of acceptable behaviour. As an adult you become a parent or teacher who tries to teach children where those boundaries are, in their own interests.

Prof.Badass

Prof.Badass wrote: »

It's human nature for people to not help the authorities against one of their peers. It may not be entirely rational, but as far as evolutionary emotional tendencies go, imo it does more good than bad.

Would you rather a system where we are excessively submissive towards authorities :eek:?

There is a difference between obeying the law and acting submissively. If one of my mates did something that broke any of the serious laws, I would believe it to be my duty as a citizen of this country to seek to enforce the laws broken, either by encouraging them to turn themselves in, or to turn them in myself.

Have you traveled much? Have you been to live in any of the former communist countries or gone to the M.East? If not, you probably should, just to see the difference in how the populations act towards authorities versus the Irish.

Personally it warms my heart that we have this anti-authoritarian tendency within us (as unneccesary authority is the enemy of equality). Obviously we should learn to think rationally about things and in the instance of welfare cheats perhaps they should be reported (unlike underage drinking or petty vandalism, the perpetrator is not only scoring a point against the authorities but also scoring a point against their peers who rely on the welfare system).

Err, no. I've traveled widely and in many ways I view the Irish rebelliousness to be rather misplaced. If anything its not being rebellious, but being rather stupid. Its like the vandalism you see everywhere in this country. I can remember with amazement in Australia, the idea that there would be well tended parks open to the public, with perfectly clean toilets and BBQ facilities. In Ireland they would be destroyed within a weekend of being put in place.

And as for welfare cheats, its the continued mentality in this country to grab and keep grabbing. Welfare in this country is rather good in comparison with many western countries. Is it perfect? Nope. Not by a long shot. But the continued misuse by individuals does nothing to improve the system, but rather stretch the resources so that everyone feels the brunt.

Personally, I view the Irish people who vandalise, pick fights, perform muggings, cheat the welfare system, etc as being immature little twats. And yes, I do tend to lump them together as being as bad as each other.

If a friend of mine was a welfare cheat I'd probably give them a chance to stop what they're doing before reporting them (which I'd like to think I would do if they didn't stop). Cheating the state's welfare system is wrong, but betraying the trust of friendship is also wrong imo.

Yup, I'd give them the opportunity to stop.. and then I'd turn them in. My friends know this about me. Its part of the reason they are my friends.

I don't think what i mentioned above is in any way related to our political laziness. I think that's just general complacency due to the fact we still feel lucky to have what we have. Had the celtic tiger never happened we'd be out on the streets for sure .

Whereas I feel that Irish people never learned to appreciate the Celtic Tiger or what we could have gained from it. Instead it was squandered on mismanagement, and corruption. And everyone knew. There was no huge cover up. The same corruption that was around for 40 years previously was continuing during that time, and on into present day. And has it been shafted since? Nope. No real arrests, convictions, or prison time. A firm encouragement to all politicians, public servants and others that they can screw us, make a fortune, and leave with their pensions intact. Awesome.

There is an amazing level of misguided desire in this country. The belief that everyone is entitled to be the best of everything. That the State should be able to meet the unrealistic expectations of the population. Ireland is a rather small country with very little capacity to compete on the world stage in economic levels, and yet there is the expectation that we should have a standard of living comparable (and possibly better) than larger countries like the UK.

This country is a land of dreamers. Reality is just too damn painful to be appreciated.

prinz

Deleted User wrote: »

Err, no. I've traveled widely and in many ways I view the Irish rebelliousness to be rather misplaced. If anything its not being rebellious, but being rather stupid. Its like the vandalism you see everywhere in this country. I can remember with amazement in Australia, the idea that there would be well tended parks open to the public, with perfectly clean toilets and BBQ facilities. In Ireland they would be destroyed within a weekend of being put in place..

Can't thank or +1 on this enough tbh. You don't need to go as far as Australia either to see what things should be like.

A lot of Irish people also have an instilled fear of calling other gob****es on their behaviour. The usual response is to turn a blind eye, be it to vandals or people refusing to pay on the bus/luas, littering etc. The council should do x, the gardaí should do y..... excuses. Many of us have no sense of responsibility towards each other whatsoever. Anti-social behaviour? Say nothing, walk on by, someone else will look after it etc etc.

Forget "the State", that's just another method of off-loading responsibility. 'The State' is us ourselves, 'the State' is your family, neighbours, friends etc. You destroy a bus shelter/cheat the welfare you are taking money out of the pockets of the people around you, and you deserve no respect for it whatsoever.

GarlicBread

@OP Surely the fraud of nama/anglo/FF and the rest is a thousand times worse than any welfare fraud. We got up towards 200billion added to our national debt. Whats that compared to a small percentage of the welfare bill annually.

prinz

GarlicBread wrote: »

@OP Surely the fraud of nama/anglo/FF and the rest is a thousand times worse than any welfare fraud. We got up towards 200billion added to our national debt. Whats that compared to a small percentage of the welfare bill annually.

Is that the yardstick everything is measured against now? :rolleyes: Sure why not a bit of shoplifting, burglary, insurance fraud, car theft etc etc etc. Suppose I should go into work tomorrow and rob the place. Sure what's that compared to NAMA,..........

GarlicBread

GarlicBread wrote: »

@OP Surely the fraud of nama/anglo/FF and the rest is a thousand times worse than any welfare fraud. We got up towards 200billion added to our national debt. Whats that compared to a small percentage of the welfare bill annually.

Actually I feel the problem is that we try to shift the focus to the big players all the time. Corruption is present in all levels in this country, and has been mostly ignored with the attitude that it has always been that way, and there's no real way to stop it. It's amazing the amount of comments I've heard from family or people in the pub talking about the local county council or some government branch, and the amount of favoritism or handouts being allowed to go on.

And the point I'm seeking to make is that while we ignore the common person who's willing to defraud the state, we're making a gesture which shows our lack of interest in the subject, which promotes that such behavior will be tolerated on all levels.

Fraud is fraud. Corruption is corruption. I could understand if it was the case of the need to feed starving children or covering the bare necessities, but its not. Its greed.

Lastly, you said "Whats that compared to a small percentage of the welfare bill annually."...

I find that this is fairly common by people in this country. They look to the big areas of expense or fraud/corruption, but ignore the smaller amounts. And yet, consider the amount of different "small" areas where mismanagement, corruption, fraud, "fixing" finances, etc occurs, and it quickly adds up to a rather large amount of money. There seems to be the focus on the quick fix by tackling one area (not that I see them actually tackling it), rather than fixing all the small problems. Anglo is probably the biggest example of this at the moment. Despite all the investment thrown into the institution, nobody has made a definite decision on how its going to end. Money is just being thrown away for what? Nothing I can see. There are difficult decisions to be made, but nobody is willing to make them. A fairly traditional attitude by politicians in this country. And there's very little pressure from the population towards the politicians to make those decisions...