What's the penalty for...?

Xios

My litlle brother has a court summons. the Garda claims he was caught in the lucan area, driving without a full licensed driver on a provisional licence. He's guilty no doubt. What are the penalties he can face?

The garda also claims he had no valid NCT, even though the car has one till march 2011, unless there's some by-law that can void an NCT if the car is damaged in anyway?

Help much appreciated.

neacy69

Xios wrote: »

My litlle brother has a court summons. the Garda claims he was caught in the lucan area, driving without a full licensed driver on a provisional licence. He's guilty no doubt. What are the penalties he can face?

The garda also claims he had no valid NCT, even though the car has one till march 2011, unless there's some by-law that can void an NCT if the car is damaged in anyway?

Help much appreciated.

http://penaltypoints.ie/licence_offences.php

Provisional licence holder driving without being accompanied by and under the supervision of qualified person
on payment of fine: 1
in court: 3

im not sure about the NCT one but im sure if you produce the NCT cert to show it was valid at the time he was stopped then that one will be ok..

djimi

According to the RSA site (http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Finding-an-Instructor/test4/) its a fine of minimum €1000. Points as well I think.

Xios

Xios wrote: »

unless there's some by-law that can void an NCT if the car is damaged in anyway?

.

Was the car damaged in any way ?

Gardoggle

did they take the car off him or was he let drive on?

hope they're not too harsh on him.

djimi

Gardoggle wrote: »

did they take the car off him or was he let drive on?

hope they're not too harsh on him.

Why?

Gophur

An NCT cert cannot be rendered invalid. You could be driving with three wheels and your NCT cert, in date, and there's no way you could be convicted for not having it.

Xios

Gardoggle wrote: »

did they take the car off him or was he let drive on?

hope they're not too harsh on him.

He was let drive on.
Yeah there was damage to the car, just dents and scratches along the side of it. Very noticable, but purely cosmetic.

johnos1984

Gophur wrote: »

You could be driving with three wheels and your NCT cert, in date, and there's no way you could be convicted for not having it.

Doesn't it have to be kept in a roadworthy condition? You couldn't drive around with no brakes or lights!

OP was it possible he didn't have the disc displayed?

Eoin

Gophur wrote: »

An NCT cert cannot be rendered invalid. You could be driving with three wheels and your NCT cert, in date, and there's no way you could be convicted for not having it.

Of course you can get points for driving a car that's not roadworthy.

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/vehicle_offences.php

djimi wrote:

Gardoggle wrote:

hope they're not too harsh on him.

Why?

Please let's open that can of worms!

L1011

eoin wrote: »

Of course you can get points for driving a car that's not roadworthy.

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/vehicle_offences.php

Thats a different offence to no NCT though.

The NCT section of it will be struck out if he brings the disc/cert in.

Eoin

Sorry, you're correct. I didn't read Gophur's post properly.

danjo

Is it possible to get penalty points on a learner permit?
Do they transfer on the a full licence when one passes the test?

slimjimmc

danjo wrote: »

Is it possible to get penalty points on a learner permit?
Do they transfer on the a full licence when one passes the test?

Yes and Yes.

Hooch

neacy69 wrote: »

http://penaltypoints.ie/licence_offences.php

Provisional licence holder driving without being accompanied by and under the supervision of qualified person
on payment of fine: 1
in court: 3

Just to point out that while these are ready to activate, they have not been inacted by the minister yet. So im afraid No licence etc has no points attached.

eoin wrote: »

Of course you can get points for driving a car that's not roadworthy.

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/vehicle_offences.php

Tech incorrect. You can get points for no NCT/CRW.......not for dangerously defective vehicle. Thats a disqualification normally as if your vehicle is not road worthy, and you should be aware by normal due care. If your driving a defective vehicle then your driving dangerously.

jimmycrackcorm

If you have an nct failure that requires only a visual re inspection then does that render the car not road worthy?

Cookie_Monster

What the logic in letting him drive on after being stooped for non-accompaniment? Should they not just have seized the car?

djimi

nice guy always wrote: »

Just to point out that while these are ready to activate, they have not been inacted by the minister yet. So im afraid No licence etc has no points attached.

So what is the penalty for driving unaccompanied on a learners permit?

djimi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What the logic in letting him drive on after being stooped for non-accompaniment? Should they not just have seized the car?

My thinking exactly. If that learner then went on to cause a serious accident down the road would the guard be held negligible for allowing them to drive away knowing they were still breaking the law?

Guy:Incognito

djimi wrote: »

So what is the penalty for driving unaccompanied on a learners permit?

From a combination of what I see on the roads every day and the rte program last year there's little or no punishment formmost things

djimi

Stekelly wrote: »

From a combination of what I see on the roads every day and the rte program last year there's little or no punishment formmost things

Its a bloody joke. I know there is supposed to be a €1000 fine for learners who drive unaccompanied; I wonder how many times this has been handed out?

celticbest

djimi wrote: »

Its a bloody joke. I know there is supposed to be a €1000 fine for learners who drive unaccompanied; I wonder how many times this has been handed out?

The country needs a properly dedicated Garda Traffic Unit that works independently of the main Gardai not the current sham of a Traffic Corp. The amount of times I seen Traffic Corp cars/jeeps at the scene of a crime instead of policing the roads is unbelievable.

Maybe if a proper traffic unit was in place it would deter learner drivers from driving unaccompanied like the brother of the OP as they know the changes of getting pulled & penalty points / fined would be much more likely.

furtzy

djimi wrote: »

Its a bloody joke. I know there is supposed to be a €1000 fine for learners who drive unaccompanied; I wonder how many times this has been handed out?

Yip. Unfortunately the Traffic Corp here are a joke. Seen them at the weekend hiding behind a fence on the Carrickmacross bypass with their speed gun. They had hidden the car behind as well...pathetic

djimi

I actually think the answer to the learner drivers problem lies more in the licensing. In my opinion its needs to be changed so that the learners permit is not seen as any kind of license other than to learn (I know thats the way its supposed to be but thats not how its enforced). If a leaner is caught on the road without a licensed driver, they should be punished the same way anyone else would be if caught driving without a license. Their insurance should also be considered null and void and they should be punished for driving with no insurance.

Learners do not have a drivers license; when they are on the road unaccompanied they are no different from anyone else who drivers around without a drivers license and I dont see why they should be punished any less harshly.

monkeypants

Stekelly wrote: »

the rte program last year there's little or no punishment formmost things

That's what I learned from watching Traffic Blues. I remember one episode where they were stopping people for being on their mobile while driving. First driver stopped is a girl; she's given a stern word and let go. Second driver stopped is a girl; she's also given a stern word and let go, even though her L plates are stuffed into her handbag rather than displayed on the car. Third driver stopped is a bloke and he gets a ticket.

slimjimmc

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What the logic in letting him drive on after being stooped for non-accompaniment? Should they not just have seized the car?

Under which law?
From what I understand the Gardaí are powerless to seize a car or arrest a driver under such circumstances (and a whole host of others where you'd expect such action). I doubt the law will change any time soon unless society starts demanding it.

Cookie_Monster

slimjimmc wrote: »

Under which law?
From what I understand the Gardaí are powerless to seize a car or arrest a driver under such circumstances (and a whole host of others where you'd expect such action). I doubt the law will change any time soon unless society starts demanding it.

ok, even if they cannot seize it (driving without a licence seems as valid a reason as no tax though) can they not detain him at the checkpoint until an accompanying licence holder turns up to allow legal use of the car?
It doesn't really make sense for the Gardai to stop him for an offence but let him continue committing said offence once details etc are recorded

slimjimmc

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ok, even if they cannot seize it (driving without a licence seems as valid a reason as no tax though) can they not detain him at the checkpoint until an accompanying licence holder turns up to allow legal use of the car?
It doesn't really make sense for the Gardai to stop him for an offence but let him continue committing said offence once details etc are recorded

Nope, they cannot, no more than they can detain you for parking on a double yellow line.
I agree that to any reasonable person it just doesn't make sense but there's nothing they can do (much to their frustration I imagine), the law just doesn't give them that power.

Cookie_Monster

slimjimmc wrote: »

Nope, they cannot, no more than they can detain you for parking on a double yellow line.
I agree that to any reasonable person it just doesn't make sense but there's nothing they can do (much to their frustration I imagine), the law just doesn't give them that power.

they should just follow him then, stop him every 500m and get for a separate offence each time :pac::pac:

monkeypants

slimjimmc wrote: »

Nope, they cannot, no more than they can detain you for parking on a double yellow line.

Aye, but that's slightly different; if they detain you on a double yellow line, then you remain on the double yellow line. To make a proper comparison, once they've ticketed you for illegal parking, they should make you stay there. Perhaps by immobilising your car, maybe with some sort of clamp. Which also happens...

Having said that, I think it's ridiculous. The idea of having another driver in the car, one with a full licence for two years, is that you can't be trusted to drive on your own. The permit doesn't permit that. So, when stopped and nabbed, why would a Guard say, "Stop doing that, here's a ticket, now carry on doing it." As suggested, the driver shouldn't be detained, but the car could be kept on site until a fully licenced driver arrives. If your car is impounded and you have no insurance, wouldn't you have to produce insurance documentation to have the car released?