New Cars complexity discuss

mustang68

I'm throwing this out here, something I read on slashdot and I'm inclined to agree:

New cars are wonderfully simple under the hood, once you strip away all the plastic. Ever taken apart an old carburetor before? Ever try to get it back together in working order? Give me a FI computer, airflow sensor, and fuel injector any day. Not surprisingly, cars went from a maintenance interval of 1,000 miles with a life expectancy of 50,000 miles to a maintenance interval of 10,000 miles and a life expectancy of 250,000 miles by *avoiding* complexity.

Discuss.....

Dades

New cars are boring.

That is all.

Ali Babba

I have a 1979 Mercedes 280 SE that I intend to run for the next 30 years or so, it's a 126 series, probably the last decent car Mercedes ever made. So far i've scrapped six others for parts, the newest one being a 1992 model. So as well as being able to upgrade my 79 model I have two good shells too in case the rust takes a hold.;)

Fishtits

New cars are far from simple, what has changed is that components aren't repaired anymore, they tend to be unbolted and replaced (anyone seen a water pump repair kit lately?). Access to many components tends to be far more difficult and time consuming now also.

Figuring out whats gone wrong with modern stuff can be very difficult if you don't have the right info to hand, and you've got the scourge of code readers eroding basic diagnostic skills (change this, change that, we'll find it eventually...)

The modern mechanic has many skills his predecessor didn't have and conversely, there are many skills his predecessor had that are mostly redundant today.

I'm not sure which I prefer TBH, there were many heartaches years ago but with rose tinted glasses and all that we tend to forget them. Working conditions, tools etc have all improved immensely though.

Anything with wheels is more than capable of spoiling your day regardless of when it was made IMHO.

carchaeologist

I drove into a Friends house on Saturday,parked the 200L Datty outside and went in,after a bit of chat the lady of the house says 'Do you like our new car?' 'What new car?' i asked. They had just bought a brand new Renault (under the in)Fluence the day before,i hadnt even noticed it even though i was parked not 10 feet away from it:D:D:D. Speaks volumes about new cars to me really.

Mostly Zero Character...

1948Wolseley

I think the article makes a good point, in that engines and their ancillaries are now much simpler and hence more reliable. You no longer have to worry about carburettors, dodgy automatic chokes, distributors, contact breakers, dynamos, etc. On the other hand, things have got more complicated with other accessories, such as electric windows (anyone here got a car over 10 years old with electric windows and not had at least one of them fail?), automatic climate control, airbags, traction/stability control, driver information systems, and the like.

Oh and to all you diagnostic naysayers out there, try one! www.obdtester.com

peasant

The "simplicity" of new cars ends when they stop making the chip that controls it all

My car and its engine could be 100% restored by a well equipped machine shop.
Other than a few temp sensors there are no electronics in the car and the sensors only control guages and the pre-glow timing. I could take them all out and still drive. Engine "managment" is purely mechanical and every single component of that could be replicated by a good machine shop. Some may take a bit more effort than others (fuel pump for example) but it could be done.

If there still is diesel in 100 years time and it hasn't rusted away by then, my van could be made to drive then ...try get a MAF sensor or a ECU for your 2010 run of the mill car/van in 100 years

ianobrien

The problem with new cars is the throw away mentality, and the focus on getting service done in the main dealers. While some of the modern technology is handy (points and manual choke in Winter for example), the insulation from driving as a result of all the refinement is the problem.

Cars have so much grip and roadholding, people don't know how to handle a car. The level of feedback from an old car really makes driving a joy. You really feel what's happening with the front wheels thanks to the lack of power steering. Skinny tyres means that it's easy to judge the levels of grip available. Driving a car like this in modern traffic improves your skill levels.

The one thing that modern cars score with is brakes. Non servo brakes, small callipers and pads means that you really learn to judge traffic and use engine braking.

One other advantage of an old car is that, with some knowledge an basic spares, you stand a good chance of getting a classic going if it stops while driving. If a modern car stops, you'll not get it going that easy.

One thing I've noticed about modern cars. If you took different cars from different manufacturers and covered them with a large sheet, they'll all have the same shape. Try that with a range of classics and you stand a fair chance of identifying them.

Max_Damage

Can you imagine 30 years down the line, they pull a 2010 BMW M5 for example out of a barn. There is no way in hell they will ever get it working again, not without replacing a load of obsolete circuit boards and what not.

af_thefragile

ianobrien wrote: »

The problem with new cars is the throw away mentality, and the focus on getting service done in the main dealers. While some of the modern technology is handy (points and manual choke in Winter for example), the insulation from driving as a result of all the refinement is the problem.

Cars have so much grip and roadholding, people don't know how to handle a car. The level of feedback from an old car really makes driving a joy. You really feel what's happening with the front wheels thanks to the lack of power steering. Skinny tyres means that it's easy to judge the levels of grip available. Driving a car like this in modern traffic improves your skill levels.

The one thing that modern cars score with is brakes. Non servo brakes, small callipers and pads means that you really learn to judge traffic and use engine braking.

One other advantage of an old car is that, with some knowledge an basic spares, you stand a good chance of getting a classic going if it stops while driving. If a modern car stops, you'll not get it going that easy.

One thing I've noticed about modern cars. If you took different cars from different manufacturers and covered them with a large sheet, they'll all have the same shape. Try that with a range of classics and you stand a fair chance of identifying them.

I'll agree with this. Modern cars have gone wayy too numb imo. The steering, the break pedal and the gearbox don't feel like they're connected to the mechanical components in anyway at all. It feels like you're controlling a computer which is doing all the work for you. Which maybe in a luxury car is a nice thing but in small simple car it takes away the joy of driving.

And I'll agree it has become a lot more expensive and complicated to mend cars nowdays. Most old cars can be mended with a few spanners where as you need all sorts of specialist tools to fix new cars. And you need to read through manuals to find the proper way to do it. I can't imagine doing any repair work on a BMW or Audi in my home. They're just too complicated and too tightly packed to be able to try anything.

When a part goes, the best thing to do is to simply replace it and that goes from a water pump to engine and gearbox. You can't really rebuild these components in your garage because of their complexity and the amount of specialist tools you'ld need to do such a thing. Everything is build to such low tolerances nowdays that you need to take your car to a specialist garage to get anything done on it.

Though in some cases it has become easier to repair some small fixes like changing oil filters, throttle bodies, fuel injectors etc as you take remove the old part and replace it with a new one...

Also with modern cars there's always the question of what if a sensor or fuel injector or worse the ECU goes in the car, then the car is nothing more than a tin box. While in the old cars because of everything being mechanical, you could bodge repair any broken car and you'ld be good to go!

Big Nasty

I'm sure each has there own, but for me the last real car was made in and around 2002. Anything pre that is repairable, i.e. fix not replace. Anything after that is disposable, i.e diagnose, replace, etc.

1948Wolseley

Max_Damage wrote: »

Can you imagine 30 years down the line, they pull a 2010 BMW M5 for example out of a barn. There is no way in hell they will ever get it working again, not without replacing a load of obsolete circuit boards and what not.

I reckon it would be fine. Old electronics tend to just keep on going: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqeY3ZWpxSA

carchaeologist

I cant wait to see what the banger racers will be racing in 20 years time,how will you get to run a 2010 BMW without all the crap and electrics!

af_thefragile

carchaeologist wrote: »

I cant wait to see what the banger racers will be racing in 20 years time,how will you get to run a 2010 BMW without all the crap and electrics!

Change the cylinder heads for carbureted ones and change the throttle bodies for cable operated ones...??

carchaeologist

af_thefragile wrote: »

Change the cylinder heads for carbureted ones and change the throttle bodies for cable operated ones...??

I know,but what will be carburated in 2030!

Mycroft H

I have to agree with the 'numbness' of modren cars.

For example, starting a Citroen C5 feels odd, theres a slight delay where the cars cpu gives the go ahead to the starter when you turn the key to start it. Although the delay is less then a second, it still feels - disconnected to the driver, whereas in the past, the starter switch was directly connected to the starter motor via a relay and that was it.

I miss the simplicity of older cars. My 85 golf has barely any elecronics under the bonnet - just the ignition system, fan, thermostat, alternator and a battery :pac:

That car is 25 this year and still going strong. I highly doubt even a 2010 Toyota corrola will be going in 25 years. Cars are not built to last anymore

COB MGV8

Simple story - my 4 year old Renault Espace needed a new alternator - I was quoted €300 for the part and a couple of 000's for the labour. (in the UK!)

I got a new alternator for my 35 year old MGB V8 that cost £40 off a bloke in the north and I put it in myself with one spanner in 20 minutes. There's no way in hell I could have done the job on the Espace myself becasue of all the complicated crap attached to it.

This is all down to designed failure cycles and super normal profit on parts - I wouldn't begrudge the labour costs becasue the bloke who does the work has to earn a living.

af_thefragile

carchaeologist wrote: »

I know,but what will be carburated in 2030!

Lawn mowers!!
No wait, those are 2 stroke motors.... Hmm...

Yes, American cars!!
They'll still be carburated with big V8s and running on leaf spring suspension!!
They say they've got a lot of that oil buried underneath Texas and Alaska...

Max_Damage

Americans haven't used carbs since the late 80's, given their emissions regulations are far stricter than they are here in Europe.

Anyway, I reckon by 2030, the internal combustion engine will most likely be obsolete. The few that remain will either run on hydrogen or veggie oil.

af_thefragile

Max_Damage wrote: »

Americans haven't used carbs since the late 80's, given their emissions regulations are far stricter than they are here in Europe.

Anyway, I reckon by 2030, the internal combustion engine will most likely be obsolete. The few that remain will either run on hydrogen or veggie oil.

Yeah but they still have loads of cars that are carburetted as they like to restore and keep old american classics running. You can easily find parts for most old american classics there. I doubt in 30years time their love for the Mustangs, Barracudas, GTOs, Chargers etc will die down.

And I'll prefer veggie oil to Li-ion batteries!
It still burns and actually it burns better than petrol so more power can be squeezed out of it. You can still have the noise and drama of an internal combustion engine!


Or if not I wouldn't mind a scenario like in the game Fuel either where all people turn to "green" power and no one is using petrol. So there is lots of leftover fuel lying around for people to burn and play around with!!

1948Wolseley

Max_Damage wrote: »

Americans haven't used carbs since the late 80's

They still use them in NASCAR.